Megathread The Lara-Su Chronicles and Ken Penders topic - READ PAGE 164, POST 4096

[biznizz]

To this day one of the most baffling things I've seen out of Penders regarding this special is that he keeps putting it at the forefront of his convention stands. Like, this thing was very vocally reviled even back then, and yet he treats it like its a milestone issue or something like that. I just don't get it. Even something like the Image Crossover at least has the 'yes, this actually happened' factor in its favor, despite being just as lousy and self-indulgent as Sonic Live. 

I remember when I briefly bought the comic in the 120's, they had the subscription and back issues part of it, they still had offers for Sonic Live! despite the fact that Special came out before Endgame. It seemed that nobody could get rid of the stock they had.

 

At least I think I did, it has been a long while.

The Image crossover probably only sold well due to the Image portion, by fans ignorant of the fact that it was only made to be window dressing on Penders' own personal pet project that he hasn't touched since it crashed and burned after it's singular issue.

Why he hasn't tried to bring Lost Ones back now that superheroes are huge thanks to the movies, that's what I want to know. As opposed to this oncoming train wreck that is the Mary Sue Lara-Su Chronicles. They're supposed to be connected anyhow right, or were, but might not because of time crash... Whatever.

[horridus]

The Image crossover probably only sold well due to the Image portion, by fans ignorant of the fact that it was only made to be window dressing on Penders' own personal pet project that he hasn't touched since it crashed and burned after it's singular issue.

Why he hasn't tried to bring Lost Ones back now that superheroes are huge thanks to the movies, that's what I want to know. As opposed to this oncoming train wreck that is the Mary Sue Lara-Su Chronicles. They're supposed to be connected anyhow right, or were, but might not because of time crash... Whatever.

Well actually, he still has plans for the Lost Ones, and has mentioned it from time to time... he largely seems focused on Lost Ones being a movie rather than a comic series, but evidently he still has that on his to-do list, as he mentions here. 

https://twitter.com/KenPenders/status/675093042680963072

 

[biznizz]

How could he not have a complete version of the story...? It's been 17 YEARS since the Image crossover came out in 19friggin'98!

Even if he doesn't have all the little details locked, he should at least have had a series bible made up for it if he's been wanting it to be a movie/comic franchise for all this time!

My ass it's on a TO DO list; it sounds like his creator owned project was going to be just as lazy as his Sonic & Knuckles stuff: writing mostly on the seat of his pants save for several details like "Bunnie & Antoine are arbitrarily going to get married in issue 300" or "Snively dies in issue whatever".

[horridus]

Technically what he said is that he hasn't PUT OUT a complete story, not that he is lacking one... for all we know, he could in fact have it scripted out and simply hasn't made anything with it due to being more focused on making the Lost Ones into a movie than he is into making it a book. 

Granted, I kind of doubt it, given that he's mentioned several times that he's still 'working out details' for LSC and has had to backstrack on all of his projected release dates for it, sooo yeah, more then likely he's just talking. 

[Agie]

We'll be seeing Howard the Duck 2 before Penders even gets the first book out the rate this is going. Or The Lost Ones film.

Or new PS2 games, or new Super NES games, or...yeah, I'm just coming up with unlikely things...that still have a higher chance than Penders putting out more than merchandise nobody wants. After all, pigs flying will probably already be a common sight by then.

Edited December 14, 2015 by SurrealBrain

[Tylinos]

Hey, everyone.  So, I came here to marvel over Ken's latest tweets, only to realize I never actually got an account here before.  I could've sworn I had one that I just hadn't logged into in a while, but I guess not.  Oh well.  Anyway...

I'm amazed just how little Ken understands about the comic industry despite being part of it for twenty years.  (I don't even really care about the ego he showed there, since that's probably meant as a bad joke.)

Here's the place where I assume Ken got his numbers, since it uses Diamond's actual sales figures: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-11.html  (The site's a pretty useful resource, showing off direct comic shop sales for various books.  It doesn't include subscription numbers, as far as I'm aware.)

Also, here's the sales for the two months before that: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-09.html  http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-10.html

To make a really long story short: In September, #276 was at 222 on the list, and sold 8,222 copies.  In October, #277 was at 215, and sold 7,877.  In November, #278 was at 219, and sold 7,607.  Even though sales dropped, just like Ken made fun of, the last two months were above where they were in September on the chart.  (Also remember that this was right after the end of the crossover.  Numbers ALWAYS drop off after a crossover.)

But the thing that really astonishes me that Ken doesn't get is that other books sales matter.  Most of the time, the biggest selling books on the list hit just over 100,000 copies, while Sonic sells between 8,000 and 9,000.  The last few months, there've been a bunch of big event comics and Marvel relaunches which sold a ton more than normal.  Last month, the biggest seller sold 440,000 copies.  Man, looking at all that, it's almost like Sonic and all the other books around it on the chart had their sales fall because of some massively high-selling comics coming out more and more the past few months.

 

All of that's nothing, though.  Want to know the silliest thing Ken didn't account for?  Well, I went back in time nearly 10 years, to Ken's final issue of Sonic.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2006/2006-02.html

Hey look, Sonic #159 was at 184 on the list.  That's not bad.

But wait.  What's that in the sales numbers column?

It sold 7,260 issues.

That's less than Sonic #278, the issue he was tweeting about.  And that month he didn't have any big-selling comics to contend with.  The highest seller back then only brought in 140,000 books.

Heck, looking back at the series' history, before Ian took over, the comics regularly sold around 7,000 or 8,000 issues.  The start to Ken's beloved M25YL (#131) sold 7,286.  Even freaking Sonic #50 only sold 8,738 copies, and that was supposedly from the book's golden years in terms of sales, according to Ken.  His complaint makes no sense.  He's spreading misinformation, and people replying to him are believing it.  And that's just sad.

[horridus]

Hey-hey, welcome aboard. Here's hoping enjoy your stay and the discussions at hand ^^

His attempts to make fun are doubly hilarious given that he constantly screams about how digital is the future, and yet is relying on the numbers of a single source of print comics to try and suggest the comics are in trouble. Those figures don't include things like subscription numbers, digital sales or sales by third parties such as Amazon or Barnes and Noble. 

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by horridus

[Shaddy Zaphod]

So I was making another ranting post about how being possessive of things you've created and passionate about your new creations while trying to win the populace back for some legal troubles is one thing, being an absolute jackass is another, but then I realized that everyone has done that already, including myself. It's not like he ever listens to people anyway, even on his own site, and that place can be toxic if you speak out of absolute praise for lord Penders.

[horridus]

So I was making another ranting post about how being possessive of things you've created and passionate about your new creations while trying to win the populace back for some legal troubles is one thing, being an absolute jackass is another, but then I realized that everyone has done that already, including myself. It's not like he ever listens to people anyway, even on his own site, and that place can be toxic if you speak out of absolute praise for lord Penders.

He doesn't post there anymore, largely because while the few defenders he has (which is mostly BobR) get pretty nasty when his Penderness is challenged, his detractors actually outnumber them. The place no longer is a sufficient echo-chamber for the guy, and so, he never goes there. It's pretty much a ghost town by this point. 

[shdowhunt60]

Of course my first thought to his tweet was  "Why, are you offering?". I mean, it really is amazing just how delusional he is. I mean, the full extent of it. Now that the comics have been almost completely annihilated of all traces of his filth, and are doing better than they have at any point before the reboot, and when it all comes back to it... It's not like the PRINT issues are doing any worse than they were before. And that's the kicker, isn't it? This just about completely ignores digital subscriptions, which didn't even exist during the time he was working on the comic!

[Shaddy Zaphod]

He doesn't post there anymore, largely because while the few defenders he has (which is mostly BobR) get pretty nasty when his Penderness is challenged, his detractors actually outnumber them. The place no longer is a sufficient echo-chamber for the guy, and so, he never goes there. It's pretty much a ghost town by this point. 

So there's literally no way for him to even be obligated to read a post more than fifteen words long, since twitter is pretty much the only way to contact him at this point.

I wonder, if someone challenged him to actually read and comprehend some of the posts in this thread, with the promise that if he could do it they'd actually not be angry about his shit, if he'd do it...

[Tylinos]

Hey-hey, welcome aboard. Here's hoping enjoy your stay and the discussions at hand ^^

Thanks!  Been lurking for a while, but just never bothered trying to post until now.

 

He doesn't post there anymore, largely because while the few defenders he has (which is mostly BobR) get pretty nasty when his Penderness is challenged, his detractors actually outnumber them. The place no longer is a sufficient echo-chamber for the guy, and so, he never goes there. It's pretty much a ghost town by this point. 

Yeah, earlier today he claimed his reason for not going there anymore was because his schedule was hectic and Twitter was less time consuming, but I don't really buy that, since he spends so much time posting on Twitter that checking his near-silent forums would honestly take him less time.

(Also, in fairness to BobR, while he can say some pretty...crazy things sometimes, when he's not defending Ken he's usually a pretty nice guy.)

[horridus]

Yeah, earlier today he claimed his reason for not going there anymore was because his schedule was hectic and Twitter was less time consuming, but I don't really buy that, since he spends so much time posting on Twitter that checking his near-silent forums would honestly take him less time.

And yet he's claimed at various times that he can't go 'in-depth' about anything on twitter and has claimed that the format prevents him from having a more thorough discussion about various topics, despite having posted walls of text and spent literal hours worth of time arguing with people on twitter. 

[Jason Berry]

Hey, everyone.  So, I came here to marvel over Ken's latest tweets, only to realize I never actually got an account here before.  I could've sworn I had one that I just hadn't logged into in a while, but I guess not.  Oh well.  Anyway...

I'm amazed just how little Ken understands about the comic industry despite being part of it for twenty years.  (I don't even really care about the ego he showed there, since that's probably meant as a bad joke.)

Here's the place where I assume Ken got his numbers, since it uses Diamond's actual sales figures: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-11.html  (The site's a pretty useful resource, showing off direct comic shop sales for various books.  It doesn't include subscription numbers, as far as I'm aware.)

Also, here's the sales for the two months before that: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-09.html  http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015/2015-10.html

To make a really long story short: In September, #276 was at 222 on the list, and sold 8,222 copies.  In October, #277 was at 215, and sold 7,877.  In November, #278 was at 219, and sold 7,607.  Even though sales dropped, just like Ken made fun of, the last two months were above where they were in September on the chart.  (Also remember that this was right after the end of the crossover.  Numbers ALWAYS drop off after a crossover.)

But the thing that really astonishes me that Ken doesn't get is that other books sales matter.  Most of the time, the biggest selling books on the list hit just over 100,000 copies, while Sonic sells between 8,000 and 9,000.  The last few months, there've been a bunch of big event comics and Marvel relaunches which sold a ton more than normal.  Last month, the biggest seller sold 440,000 copies.  Man, looking at all that, it's almost like Sonic and all the other books around it on the chart had their sales fall because of some massively high-selling comics coming out more and more the past few months.

 

All of that's nothing, though.  Want to know the silliest thing Ken didn't account for?  Well, I went back in time nearly 10 years, to Ken's final issue of Sonic.

http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2006/2006-02.html

Hey look, Sonic #159 was at 184 on the list.  That's not bad.

But wait.  What's that in the sales numbers column?

It sold 7,260 issues.

That's less than Sonic #278, the issue he was tweeting about.  And that month he didn't have any big-selling comics to contend with.  The highest seller back then only brought in 140,000 books.

Heck, looking back at the series' history, before Ian took over, the comics regularly sold around 7,000 or 8,000 issues.  The start to Ken's beloved M25YL (#131) sold 7,286.  Even freaking Sonic #50 only sold 8,738 copies, and that was supposedly from the book's golden years in terms of sales, according to Ken.  His complaint makes no sense.  He's spreading misinformation, and people replying to him are believing it.  And that's just sad.

Great post. I hope you don't mind. I'm going to show him these facts.

 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Jason the Jackass

[Tylinos]

Great post. I hope you don't mind. I'm going to show him these facts.

 

Sure thing.  Go right ahead.

[biznizz]

You wanna know what the sad part is about that first tweet? The fact that he referred Eggman as "Robo-Robotnik".

Technically accurate, given Eggman's convoluted origin in the old continuity*, but just goes to show how little of a shit he gave about the franchise as a whole. No, it couldn't be Eggman, the Japanese surname that was used in Adventure onwards, it had to explicitly be mentioned that he was ROBO-Robotnik to emphasize that it was the character that Ken "created" back in the early issues.

I still have no idea how he's able to own a copyright on characters named Robo-Robotnik and Evil Sonic the Hedgehog, especially when the latter was given more personality and a name/appearance change, that apparently brought more credability to his claim or something...?

Of course, I have already mentioned how ludicrous the idea that the Dark Legion being any sort of sizable threat to the Eggman Empire was even before the creation of the Dark Egg Legion/Egg Bosses. Robotnik/Eggman poses a threat to the entire world, the Dark Legion barely can keep up a threat to Knuckles and was barely able to threaten Angel Island even before Bollers had the Eggman-backed Dingoes subjugate the Island and force the Legion into hiding.

 

 

*Because it just wouldn't be simple to just bring back the original Robotnik in a new body, noooo it had to be a friggin' alternate universe doppleganger who holds no past connection the versions of the characters we've followed since the beginning. It's telling that Flynn only alluded to this stupid ass origin when he absolutely had to, like that flashback story where Naugus tells Eggman of when he met Robotnik in the Zone of Silence because Eggman barely knew who Naugus was at the time.

[Tylinos]

You know, I figured he'd respond with excuses, but even then, I thought they'd at least make sense.

I honestly don't understand what he's on about.  Is it that every company's losing sales not mentioned by Diamond because of newsstand sales going away? (Which has been a problem since long before Sonic ever started.) If that's what he means, then why even bring any of this up?  If every company's losing newsstand sales, then what's the point of singling Sonic out for it?

The Diamond numbers are pretty consistent, apart from event comics fudging the numbers here and there.  In June 1997 (the month of Sonic #50), 11 books sold over 100,000 copies according to Diamond.  Last month, 13 books did.

I just don't get his point.  If the Diamond numbers don't matter, why specifically mention them?

[horridus]

You know, I figured he'd respond with excuses, but even then, I thought they'd at least make sense.

I honestly don't understand what he's on about.  Is it that every company's losing sales not mentioned by Diamond because of newsstand sales going away? (Which has been a problem since long before Sonic ever started.) If that's what he means, then why even bring any of this up?  If every company's losing newsstand sales, then what's the point of singling Sonic out for it?

The Diamond numbers are pretty consistent, apart from event comics fudging the numbers here and there.  In June 1997 (the month of Sonic #50), 11 books sold over 100,000 copies according to Diamond.  Last month, 13 books did.

I just don't get his point.  If the Diamond numbers don't matter, why specifically mention them?

Recall, this is Penders. He's the master of moving the goal posts, and trying to point out the flaws in his logic only leads him to act like he didn't mean what he initially said or that people are 'misunderstanding' him. Penders isn't a guy who argues in good faith or really desires to engage with anybody, and frankly, if he was given a choice between publically admittig an error or sawing his own foot off, I'd bet money that he would gleefully lose that foot so long as it would mean not having to admit he was wrong about something. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by horridus

[Tenko]

So the numbers sourced from his original data location show that the current issues are roughly the same as they ever were...without factoring in the new format of digital sales, as well as the older methods of subscriptions and third party sales etc. meaning in all likelihood the numbers are much higher. Yet Penders is stating that the numbers of his issues are greater even factoring in the digital sales and Jason needs to check his figures.

I...don't even know what to say...its like he's trying to convince people a blue pen is red.

[Idon'tcare]

Just to be a jerk, but has anyone here ever considered just asking Archie/Ian Flynn how many sales they made of any given issue within the last year instead of just speculating about an unknown number of sales in response to a trolling comment made by Ken Penders.

Remember, the best source of sales figures is from the company producing the product itself and not  from the middle man/lady handling only a bit of the sales.

[Tenko]

I see he still manages to somehow warp any comment into praise for himself or his creations. Someone on Twitter trying to point out that they had picked up the Knuckles comics due to their love of the character not his work in particular, which personally I assume likely accounted for a large portion if not most of the sales as I cant speak for others but as a child buying the comics I certainly wasnt activley searching out writers names etc, it was "OoOo Sonic or OoOo Knuckles". Pointing out here that the same could be said for Sonic too. Yet somehow he turns that into a reply saying that if you liked the stories or characters in the comics, especially the Knuckles series, then you liked his work as he was the driving force behind that series.

Perhaps I missed the part where the original poster had mentioned liking the stories and characters in the Knuckles comics, cause all I saw was a point that they only brought the comic because of Knuckles, as a character, not Penders version of Knuckles, just that it was Knuckles at all.

He's still trying to refute you too Jason, I just dont get it, I mean you give the guy the same figures he used himself from the same source and he goes and de-rails and pulls out all sorts of random junk about news stand sales etc, so he has some unrecorded convieniantly unobtainable figures that make his numbers stronger without needing proof.

If there is one thing I've learnt about him over the year's it's that he has, in abundance it seems, either a friend of every single persuasion and background that makes his comments alright and not offensive. Or large numbers of invisible things, be it non-internet using fans that will buy his online comic app or comic sales that happened in places that can't be recorded properly which beat the pants off any sales any other writer could achieve. *sigh*

[horridus]

Just to be a jerk, but has anyone here ever considered just asking Archie/Ian Flynn how many sales they made of any given issue within the last year instead of just speculating about an unknown number of sales in response to a trolling comment made by Ken Penders.

Remember, the best source of sales figures is from the company producing the product itself and not  from the middle man/lady handling only a bit of the sales.

Because that would be a very bad idea, done in this context. Archie and Ian Flynn have gone to extreme pains to not mention the guy or even covertly snark at him, and have done everything in thier power to ignore his various attempts to bait them. A fan asking either ARchie or Ian Flynn about the sales numbers and records and then going up to Penders to scream at him about it would look bad; it'd look like Archie might be using fans to harrass him, and as such open them up to being sued or, barring that, damage their public image pretty badly. Involving Flynn and Archie in any of these bouts against Penders is a bad, bad, baaad idea, no matter how innocuous it might seem. 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

Recall, this is Penders. He's the master of moving the goal posts, and trying to point out the flaws in his logic only leads him to act like he didn't mean what he initially said or that people are 'misunderstanding' him. Penders isn't a guy who argues in good faith or really desires to engage with anybody, and frankly, if he was given a choice between publically admittig an error or sawing his own foot off, I'd bet money that he would gleefully lose that foot so long as it would mean not having to admit he was wrong about something. 

I think Penders is like the first Death Star; he can deflect almost any attack, but if someone were to penetrate his thick skull defenses with just one argument he couldn't find a way to refute, he'd explode into a giant ring of CGI effects.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Knowing him, they'd probably just be giant, 3d-modeled plastic rings because that's apparently what "professionalism" looks like

[horridus]

I think Penders is like the first Death Star; he can deflect almost any attack, but if someone were to penetrate his thick skull defenses with just one argument he couldn't find a way to refute, he'd explode into a giant ring of CGI effects.

Explode? Nah. He just ignores people who bring up things he can't refute, focusing on anything and everything they say if not shutting off completely and pretending they're not there. I think it's one of the reasons he no longer posts on his forum... people can say more there, and it's harder to not look like he's avoiding the question because of it. Not that it stops him on twitter, but there he can blame 'the format'.

One thing I yearn for is to see how he handles himself in an actual interview that would bring up his misdeeds, in front of an audience. A scenario where he can't just ignore or block someone for pointing out the various wrongheaded things he's said and done. Never gonna happen, but hey, it's nice to dream at least.