The Rouge the Bat topic

[Sparky]

Yeah. They all died, but they got better. Including Knuckles and Amy. 

[Kuzu]

Pretty sure he was joking guys.

[Sparky]

Pretty sure he was joking guys.

Who, exactly?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The case that characters like Rouge not being in recent games is because they are much more based off comedy (not completely) and wacky storylines is that dark characters like her Shadow and the others that were in the games from Adventure 2 - 06 had darker stories (i.e. a character almost dying, that would never happen in recent games).

And what exactly is so difficult in giving characters like her some humor so they can fit? If anything, humor is exactly what they need to balance out their more serious character traits.

[Splash the Otter]

I'd like to revisit the topic of Rouge's appearance for a split second, just so I can point something out. When people complain about her clothes, usually they say something to the effect of it making her look promiscuous. While on its own this statement is inaccurate, you have to remember that we're talking about someone who is frequently portrayed as being flirtatious. With that in mind, is it really that hard to see how people could jump to conclusions?

 

Please note that I am not calling Rouge a whore. I just think people shouldn't be so hard on those who don't like the way she looks.

[Diogenes]

I'd like to revisit the topic of Rouge's appearance for a split second, just so I can point something out. When people complain about her clothes, usually they say something to the effect of it making her look promiscuous. While on its own this statement is inaccurate, you have to remember that we're talking about someone who is frequently portrayed as being flirtatious. With that in mind, is it really that hard to see how people could jump to conclusions?

Well it's not really surprising, because I know a lot of people have really shitty opinions about women, especially when anything even tangentially related to sex is involved. But that doesn't make those opinions okay and they should be chastised for them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'd like to revisit the topic of Rouge's appearance for a split second, just so I can point something out. When people complain about her clothes, usually they say something to the effect of it making her look promiscuous. While on its own this statement is inaccurate, you have to remember that we're talking about someone who is frequently portrayed as being flirtatious. With that in mind, is it really that hard to see how people could jump to conclusions?

Umm...somewhat?

 

Her appearance says a lot, but they're making mountains out of molehills and calling a character something so extreme for something so minor. Until Rouge officially does something more sexual that flirting (like actual sex with more than one person, and good luck with that happening), their argument is very much invalid over Rouge being a promiscuous whore.

[Splash the Otter]

Well it's not really surprising, because I know a lot of people have really shitty opinions about women, especially when anything even tangentially related to sex is involved. But that doesn't make those opinions okay and they should be chastised for them.

No they shouldn't. The most you should do is explain why they're mistaken.

 

Umm...somewhat?

 

Her appearance says a lot, but they're making mountains out of molehills and calling a character something so extreme for something so minor. Until Rouge officially does something more sexual that flirting (like actual sex with more than one person, and good luck with that happening), their argument is very much invalid over Rouge being a promiscuous whore.

That doesn't make it okay to ridicule them over it though!

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

That doesn't make it okay to ridicule them over it though!

Yet they're ridiculing people and characters for their appearances. Nice double standard.

[Diogenes]

No they shouldn't. The most you should do is explain why they're mistaken.

Personally I think both are acceptable courses of action.

[Splash the Otter]

Yet they're ridiculing people and characters for their appearances. Nice double standard.

Two wrongs don't make a right, CSS.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Two wrongs don't make a right, CSS.

And you're still gonna justify the double standard?

 

Making a wrong isn't right in the first place, so tell the people you're defending to practice what they preach and not make wrongs themselves first and they won't have to worry about retaliation.

[Kuzu]

Two wrongs don't make a right, CSS.

 

So its ok to call a character such an offensive term for a minor offense such as showing some cleavage and having a teasing personality, but its not ok to call someone out on that at all. :\

[Splash the Otter]

So its ok to call a character such an offensive term for a minor offense such as showing some cleavage and having a teasing personality, but its not ok to call someone out on that at all. :\

That isn't what I said at all! Feel free to criticize inaccurate use of the word "whore" all you want, but don't try to make them feel bad about it!

[Nepenthe]

If you're willing to jump to the conclusion that a character is promiscuous because they're female, not completely covered up, and flirt sometimes, then you run the risk of being called out on a sexist thought process that runs the risk of social consequences when outwardly spoken. Either present an appropriate counterargument explaining why calling characters like Rouge a whore is somehow okay or justified, or just take your licks and learn from them. Don't hide behind a veil of victimization. Everyone's feelings don't need to be spared all the time.

[Kuzu]

That isn't what I said at all! Feel free to criticize inaccurate use of the word "whore" all you want, but don't try to make them feel bad about it!

 

And how exactly is calling someone a whore based on their choice of wear and personality not doing the same thing? We're not even talking about improper use of words anymore, you're trying to accuse us of doing something when you're doing it your damn self by perpetuating your notion about Rouge's choice of dress. Excuse us from calling out others when they're being unfairly treated for very shallow claims.

[Dr. Mechano]

Even if she was promiscuous (and she isn't in any way that the games depict or even hint at), I find descriptions like "slut" to be really awful and in extremely poor taste. Given its historically sexist use, I'd say it qualifies as a slur, and a totally unneeded label that's disproportionately applied to women, and rarely (though occasionally) some men.

 

Promiscuity isn't for me, as I'm an unflinching monogamist. But I'm not driven by some irrational dislike of promiscuous people, nor do I feel the need to insult and belittle them. They aren't hurting me or affecting my life in any significant way, so I see no practical reason to turn up my noses at them and treat them as a less valuable person than I am.

 

So I think my argument is that Rouge isn't promiscuous, but even if she was, I feel that's still a terrible reason to call her demeaning (and inherently sexist) names.

[Splash the Otter]

If you're willing to jump to the conclusion that a character is promiscuous because they're female, not completely covered up, and flirt sometimes, then you run the risk of being called out on a sexist thought process that runs the risk of social consequences when outwardly spoken. Either present an appropriate counterargument explaining why calling characters like Rouge a whore is somehow okay or justified, or just take your licks and learn from them. Don't hide behind a veil of victimization. Everyone's feelings don't need to be spared all the time.

It may not be entirely justified, but it sure as hell doesn't warrant the level of intolerance that some people respond with. Furthermore, I can see the same thing happening with male characters, so I'd hardly call it a "sexist" thought process.

 

And how exactly is calling someone a whore based on their choice of wear and personality not doing the same thing? We're not even talking about improper use of words anymore, you're trying to accuse us of doing something when you're doing it your damn self by perpetuating your notion about Rouge's choice of dress. Excuse us from calling out others when they're being unfairly treated for very shallow claims.

It isn't the same thing because Rouge is a fictional character! Furthermore, I believe I made it clear that I don't think Rouge is a whore. I just said I can understand why people might mistake her for one.

 

It saddens me, really. I was hoping people would be reasonable about this, but now I'm wondering why I even bother...

[Nepenthe]

It may not be entirely justified, but it sure as hell doesn't warrant the level of intolerance that some people respond with. Furthermore, I can see the same thing happening with male characters, so I'd hardly call it a "sexist" thought process.

 

The "tolerance" argument is just code for "I shouldn't have to feel bad for saying offensive things that make others feel bad"; a co-opted line of reasoning that ignores the context of these situations entirely. There is absolutely nothing to gain for society tolerating behaviors rooted in prejudice just so people who hold these prejudiced views can sleep better at night or tote the right to call others hypocrites. Sometimes people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

 

Also, when men and women are directly compared, we can easily notice that there are far less stringent standards for men in regards to how they can properly display their body and sexuality. This franchise is a fine example! Sonic walks showing his bare chest and no one cares. Rouge walks around in a top that shows a little cleavage and is called a prostitute. It's a double standard, so don't even play the "men have it as bad" card.

 

Ultimately though, it is a sexist thought process.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

We just sunk right back into the sexism debate again...

 

The point all around should be the golden rule of "do onto others what you want done to you," and yes it extends to fictional characters like Rouge because it's a slur all around that is just in poor taste that represents connotations in real life.

 

And really, Rouge's list of achievements in precise order are: infilitrating the ARK, spying on Eggman and Shadow, infiltrating Prison Island, stealing the island's Emeralds, destroying the heavy mech Flying Dog with her bare hand-er, feet, fighting the physical powerhouse Knuckles the Echidna to a stalemate in space, and helping to stop the ARK from dropping on earth and wiping out all life.

 

Next game, she unwittingly rescues Shadow, stops him and Omega from killing each other, and goes around various parts of the world to stop Eggman's Fleet and help take down Metal Sonic.

 

Next game, she helps save the world from Black Arms, and then after that she's involved in the Solaris incident, which is a mess of a plot so I'm just going to leave it at this.

 

Yet people throw all of this stuff away and look at the way Rouge simply looks and criticize her entire being on her appearance? That is, by it's very definition, shallow as hell.

[Tara]

I just want to address a few things before I come up with a reasonable reply:

• Passion =/= Intolerance.  I am very passionate about the subject of sexism and will word my opinions strongly because it's an important subject to me.  That doesn't mean I don't tolerate those who are different, but if I don't act like it's a big deal, then it won't be seen as one.  But guess what?  It is a big deal.  That's why the members here are posting what you consider "intolerance."
• Sexism is not always a conscious thought.  Here's a shocker.  Both men and women can be sexist, and it's not always a conscious thing.  That doesn't excuse it in the slightest, but I'm getting the feeling that we're on two separate pages in regards to the true definition of sexism.  Sexism does not solely refer to the conscious hatred, discrimination, or judgment of people of different sexes.  It refers to the conscious and subconscious levels whereby men and women are treated differently as a result of their gender or through factors inherently related to their gender that can't be controlled.  I believe everyone, including myself, holds some form of double standard but isn't always aware of how harmful they can be.  That's why there needs to be blunt education about these sort of things.  So that people see the harm they're contributing to with these mindsets.
• We have a tendency to judge fictional characters like we do real people, so the fact that she is a fictional character holds no weight in this argument.  Yes, it's true that Rouge's feelings aren't exactly important because she is fictional and as such can't be hurt by them, but when you judge someone based on a certain criteria, you're not just judging the one character, but everyone who falls under that criteria.

With that out of the way, your argument was that it's clear as to why people might see her that way.  Yes, it is clear why people might see her that way.  But that doesn't make it okay.  I can see the reasoning behind a lot of prejudices, but that doesn't justify them in the slightest.  The problem with your argument overall is that you're acting like we're oblivious to the superficial reasoning behind it, and we're not.  We just don't agree to it.

 

Furthermore...

 

 

Sonic walks showing his bare chest and no one cares. Rouge walks around in a top that shows a little cleavage and is called a prostitute.

THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

FUCKING THIS.

[Splash the Otter]

The "tolerance" argument is just code for "I shouldn't have to feel bad for saying offensive things that make others feel bad"; a co-opted line of reasoning that ignores the context of these situations entirely.

That isn't what I meant at all.

 

There is absolutely nothing to gain for society tolerating behaviors rooted in prejudice just so people who hold these prejudiced views can sleep better at night or tote the right to call others hypocrites. Sometimes people need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

There are better ways to do it than implying that someone is a bad person just because of what they think.

 

Also, when men and women are directly compared, we can easily notice that there are far less stringent standards for men in regards to how they can properly display their body and sexuality. This franchise is a fine example! Sonic walks showing his bare chest and no one cares. Rouge walks around in a top that shows a little cleavage and is called a prostitute. It's a double standard, so don't even play the "men have it as bad" card.

This isn't about clothes, it's about behavior. If Rouge were male but no less flirtatious, you can bet people would be calling him a womanizer. So while men may not have it as bad as women, they certainly aren't exempt from it!

 

Ultimately though, it is a sexist thought process.

It may be that, but not to the extent you imagine.

 

And since I don't know how to quote posts in an edit, this is in response to Akito: I'm not demanding that people agree with me, nor am I trying to justify anyone's thought process. I'm just pointing out that there's no reason to get hostile over it, especially since many times people aren't trying to be sexist or anything.

[Diogenes]

There are better ways to do it than implying that someone is a bad person just because of what they think.

Sometimes people are bad people for what they think. Also thoughts don't normally stay as just thoughts, they influence actions.

This isn't about clothes, it's about behavior. If Rouge were male but no less flirtatious, you can bet people would be calling him a womanizer. So while men may not have it as bad as women, they certainly aren't exempt from it!

A lot of people wouldn't consider that to be a bad thing, though. They'd think ManRouge was a cool Casanova type.

[Gabz Girl]

I always thought Rouge looked flirty and...that's it! She looks flirty and sexy (sorta...), but thats because she's a typical seductive spy. Sometimes she's flirted with Knuckles, Shadow and even Sonic but she doesn't...do them!

Eh, I used to find it slightly disturbing though when her boobies bounced all over the place in SA2, but luckily they've downplayed that in later games. XD her boobs don't look like balloons in later games since Sonic 06, I think.

[Tara]

This isn't about clothes, it's about behavior. If Rouge were male but no less flirtatious, you can bet people would be calling him a womanizer. So while men may not have it as bad as women, they certainly aren't exempt from it!

Except being called a womanizer doesn't have nearly the same amount of weight to it as being called a "slut."  James Bond and Duke Nukem are womanizers, but they're considered heroes regardless.  Sure, there are some heroic promiscuous females, (though I struggle to think of one) but the difference is largely that most promiscuous female heroines are defined more by their sex appeal than by the actions they commit.  James Bond may bone a lot of women, but he's known more for his action sequences, for example, while Rouge's reputation stems almost entirely from the fact that she has cleavage.