Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

[Junko]

Is Toon Link a clone? I know his moves are the same but I thought he was faster or something.

I think it's the same boat as Lucina, same moves, plays different enough to warrant their own slot.

[Doctor MK]

Is Toon Link a clone? I know his moves are the same but I thought he was faster or something.

 

If he's got exactly the same moveset but just moves a bit quicker then, yes, that's a clone in my book. A speedy clone, but a clone nevertheless.

 

Lucina will have some differences to Marth, as Sakurai points out:

 

"where Marth's power is concentrated in the tip of the sword, Lucina's attack strength is balanced throughout the weapon, which might make her easier to control"

 

So even though the moves will be the same, the way she pulls them off will probably feel a bit different.

 

Just like Toon Link.

[Solly]

Is Toon Link a clone? I know his moves are the same but I thought he was faster or something.

Toon Link's a clone, but he is much faster. His moves have different properties, too. His special moves have slightly different effects. For example, they're weaker, he doesn't have the Gale Boomerang, and his Spinning Slash draws people in instead of knocking them away. Also his back air is different,  and his down air takes him straight to the grown, spiking enemies along with him. He's also got a much better recovery.

 

These things do really change the way he's played by quite a bit. He's still a "clone" but wholly more original than what Lucina's shaping up to be, functionally. 

[TrueBlue]

I think Dark Pit will be in the same situation as the WFTs, Villagers and Robins - at least from the definition that Sakurai gave.

[Red Cap]

For all I know, and feel free to prove me wrong, they might have had the same amount of time on average in making her like all the other characters, which is plenty of time for them to make enough differences to make her unique, only that they decided to go the easy way out like they did Toon Link.

 

IIRC, they've said that all 6 of Melee's clones took about as much time to develop as a regular character. They have a bigger team now, so it probably took even less time to put her in the game compared to, say, Roy.

[SuperLink]

How do we even know how long they've had to develop and finish her before they decided to release her trailer with the Avatar? Because you make it sound more like they were rushing to put her in the game at the last minute. And if that's the case, then that seems to be a issue with how they're managing things to me instead.

 

Otherwise, with all that development being as costly as it is, that's still no excuse as far as I can tell. For all I know, and feel free to prove me wrong, they might have had the same amount of time on average in making her like all the other characters, which is plenty of time for them to make enough differences to make her unique, only that they decided to go the easy way out like they did Toon Link.

 

Well then I'm going to stand by my earlier point and say that I'd rather not have Lucina if she's going to be too much of a clone. More power to you if you don't care, but I do. So argue all you want, but my point will always be that Lucina could have been better than this.

They're probably on a tight schedule, I imagine every character has been basically developed but need animation, balance and hitbox work and more. I'm not saying Lucina was developed in a rush for this trailer, I'm saying they probably got her out the way at an earlier point to make way for working on the more unique characters. Don't forget that the roster was mostly decided before development began, meaning they have probably had a relatively accurate schedule and framework to work from, which is more possible thanks to a development team that is larger than Sakurai is used to.

 

For all I know, and feel free to prove me wrong, they might have had the same amount of time on average in making her like all the other characters

Absolutely no way, that doesn't even make sense? Are you also saying that Male Wii Fit Trainer had the same development time as his own character? Literally all they had to do with Lucina is a model, some tweaks, and voicework, voicework doesn't even impact development work at all because it's handled externally. I'm bringing this up again, but;

 

 

 

 

This is from the Skullgirls fundraiser can more or less be attributed to most fighting games (as corroborated by many other game developers as "pretty much accurate"), look at the large spaces for animation and QA testing, plus a dedicated spot for hitboxes. Time is money, or in this case, money is time, animation and Quality Assurance are some of the biggest factors of fighting game development, and when developing a clone those factors are largely negated because assets from the original character can be easily reused and tweaked, development time becomes a fraction of what it otherwise would be. For Skullgirls, two cloney characters (Fukua and Robo-Fortune) were promised as bonuses with small excess funds they had from their main character development goals, and one was developed in just a few nights.

 

Lucina was developed in a fraction of the time as other characters with the full intention that she would be made a clone. If she had the same dev time as other characters, what do you think the developers were doing for all those months of developing her? Twiddling their thumbs after finishing her model? Plus, if her being a clone wasn't supposed to be intentional I doubt Sakurai would have intentionally pointed it out in her reveal, he didn't shame her for it, it's the factual nature of how she was developed.

 

You're right, she could have been better (had the game been delayed or had she replaced another newcomer), and I'm sorry that you're not getting the Lucina you'd like to see in the game, but it's not fair to call the developers lazy when they're giving the players something the players they really didn't owe anyone at all and squeezing all they can into this game's development. Tons of people are happy to get her at all, with a game like Smash it's just hard to please everyone, and I'm sure tons of people would have said things like "I wish they'd at least make her an alt" if she wasn't in, or people would have said "they could have made at least a couple clones" if the roster size is smaller than they wanted (I'm certain people woulda said this about Melee if it had no clones..)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

IIRC, they've said that all 6 of Melee's clones took about as much time to develop as a regular character. They have a bigger team now, so it probably took even less time to put her in the game compared to, say, Roy.

That's...putting them in a more bad light in my eyes for this game...

 

I also here that Melee was made in a shorter amount of time. What's the difference in development time between Melee and Wii-U? That might tell me something else I'm not aware of.

[SuperLink]

That's...putting them in a more bad light in my eyes for this game...

 

I also here that Melee was made in a shorter amount of time. What's the difference in development time between Melee and Wii-U? That might tell me something else I'm not aware of.

Melee was developed in about a year, SSB4 has had about 2 and a half years.

 

Melee has 19 unique characters (including Sheik) and 7 clones, and SSB4 so far has 34 unique characters and 3 clones.

 

Sounds about right to me, SSB4 is being planned far better than Melee was.

[Red Cap]

That's...putting them in a more bad light in my eyes for this game...

 

I also here that Melee was made in a shorter amount of time. What's the difference in development time between Melee and Wii-U? That might tell me something else I'm not aware of.

 

Melee took about a year. SSB4 entered development around March 2012. But keep in mind that they're making 2 games at once and that there are way more characters in this game compared to Melee.

[SilentDoom]

So I'm starting to understand why people hate the "waste of a roster slot line" because I'm really having a hard time seeing how Lucina, one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters of all fucking time, is a waste of a slot in a fucking fanservice game simply because she doesn't pander to tourney fucks by being a clone of Marth.

This is an incredibly obnoxious attitude. First of all "tourney fucks" really? If competitve Melee is anything to go by tournament players concern themselves more with whether or not a character is effective rather than whether or not they're a clone. There are A LOT of Falco players as well as good Ganon and Doc players in Melee despite all being clones.

Second, the fact that this is a fan service game is precisely why Lucina is a missed opportunity as a complete clone. If she was a clone in the same vain as, say, Luigi or Lucas then that would have bee amazing and fit really well. It's sensible acknowledgement of how she is as a character, whilst still offering her fresh, fairly unique gameplay. However she was, rather arbitrarily, made an almost exact replica of Marth. Doc is less of a clone than her and he is literally just Mario with a jacket.

Fan service doesn't just come from the character themselves but also how they are represented. Smash is capable of making typically dull characters really cool, but can also do the opposite as is the case here. I'm not saying this as a competitive player, I'm saying this as someone who likes FE and Lucina.

[Solkia]

I'll agree that it's disappointing.

 

But I also think it's not a huge deal. Marth is already incredibly fun to play as, and it saves everyone the work of getting used to a new moveset.

 

I just wish I could be happy about Fire Emblem related news for once.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They're probably on a tight schedule, I imagine every character has been basically developed but need animation, balance and hitbox work and more. I'm not saying Lucina was developed in a rush for this trailer, I'm saying they probably got her out the way at an earlier point to make way for working on the more unique characters. Don't forget that the roster was mostly decided before development began, meaning they have probably had a relatively accurate schedule and framework to work from, which is more possible thanks to a development team that is larger than Sakurai is used to.

I honestly didn't know the roster was decided before development, but now that I do that just annoys me even more. If they had her picked in the roster before development began, and things were scheduled and framed, then that makes me wonder what else is going on regarding making her a clone and why.

 

 

 

Absolutely no way, that doesn't even make sense? Are you also saying that Male Wii Fit Trainer had the same development time as his own character?

No? I'm saying that Lucina did. Does Male WFT have anything that can be used to make him his own separate identity from Female WFT? Because that's the difference I'm making here. It's like doing to Ganondorf what they've been doing the previous two Smash titles he's been in, and I've gotten tired of that since Brawl.

 

 

 

Literally all they had to do with Lucina is a model, some tweaks, and voicework, voicework doesn't even impact development work at all because it's handled externally.

Okay...?

 

 

 

This is from the Skullgirls fundraiser can more or less be attributed to most fighting games (as corroborated by many other game developers as "pretty much accurate"), look at the large spaces for animation and QA testing, plus a dedicated spot for hitboxes. Time is money, or in this case, money is time, animation and Quality Assurance are some of the biggest factors of fighting game development, and when developing a clone those factors are largely negated because assets from the original character can be easily reused and tweaked, development time becomes a fraction of what it otherwise would be. For Skullgirls, two cloney characters (Fukua and Robo-Fortune) were promised as bonuses with small excess funds they had from their main character development goals, and one was developed in just a few nights.

Yeah, I'm well aware of how expensive development costs are.

 

How much of an increase would it be in the animation, QA, and hitboxes to at least make two of her specials unique like that of Wolf or Luigi? Would that be too expensive to do at the very least? Because that's the bare minimum to what I think would make Lucina unique in her own way.

 

Lucina was developed in a fraction of the time as other characters with the full intention that she would be made a clone. If she had the same dev time as other characters, what do you think the developers were doing for all those months of developing her? Twiddling their thumbs after finishing her model? Plus, if her being a clone wasn't supposed to be intentional I doubt Sakurai would have intentionally pointed it out in her reveal, he didn't shame her for it, it's the factual nature of how she was developed.

And I really do not care about how intentional it was. In fact, that would actually make me more disappointed that she was made a clone in the first place, because if she had the same dev time as other characters, then that would make it even more lazy to me that she isn't a more unique character on her own strengths. But at any rate...

 

 

 

You're right, she could have been better (had the game been delayed or had she replaced another newcomer), and I'm sorry that you're not getting the Lucina you'd like to see in the game, but it's not fair to call the developers lazy when they're giving the players something the players they really didn't owe anyone at all and squeezing all they can into this game's development. Tons of people are happy to get her at all, with a game like Smash it's just hard to please everyone, and I'm sure tons of people would have said things like "I wish they'd at least make her an alt" if she wasn't in, or people would have said "they could have made at least a couple clones" if the roster size is smaller than they wanted.

And as I said, more power to them for getting what they wanted. But this isn't about me alone in what I want out of the character, because there's no telling if I would even play as her in the first place and I don't think I'm owed anything out of it either. Didn't really care that much that she's in the game, wouldn't be too bothered if she wasn't, because I'm not the only person here to play the game. Tons of people are happy to get her, yes; but I think they'd be much happier if they didn't get her as a clone.

[Carbo]

"Crippled" is a hasty exaggeration imo. Marth's fundamental design allows him to at least be decent due to his naturally strong spacing game. I'm not quite sure where people are getting the idea of Lucina being faster from. Her animations are frame by frame identical to Marth's and Sakurai did state that their physical abilities are identical.

Sakurai says a lot of things, none of which give us the full picture. "Physical abilities" can mean anything. Most people have already noted how markedly different Lucina's Nair is compared to Marth's. The only reason Sakurai focused on the sword is probably because that is the key differentiator due to it being Marth's gimmick, and he doesn't get overly technical on Miiverse descriptions. I mean, "being shorter" is not really much of a detail. That's just a casual observation which most people will notice while the game play details are something only the dedicated players will find.

And while "crippled" may have been pushing it, most second hand accounts from the game imply that Marth is overall slower and has a worse air game than he did in Brawl. Ken was notably among the people who pointed this out. Meanwhile Lucina exhibits speed more comparable to the Marth we all know.

I sincerely doubt the sword is the only different thing between the two, that's just the main thing that sets them apart. The likely scenario is that Marth is having his properties split between characters, just like Fox and Falco. In Melee, Fox had very little to do with his N64 iteration. To make up for the fact and cover an additional newcomer, Falco was introduced and inherited most of Fox's traits that stemmed from his original N64 iteration.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And I really hope that's the case and we're proven wrong about Lucina being a clone. I've already made my case why I think that's wasted potential for the character given what we know so far.

[SuperLink]

I honestly didn't know the roster was decided before development, but now that I do that just annoys me even more. If they had her picked in the roster before development began, and things were scheduled and framed, then that makes me wonder what else is going on regarding making her a clone and why.

No I'm saying she was purposefully decided as a clone from point one, so more dev time could go into more unique characters, what is it about this that you don't get?

 

No? I'm saying that Lucina did. Does Male WFT have anything that can be used to make him his own separate identity from Female WFT? Because that's the difference I'm making here. It's like doing to Ganondorf what they've been doing the previous two Smash titles he's been in, and I've gotten tired of that since Brawl.

She didn't, again, what about this aren't you getting? Lucina was intentionally developed as a clone from point one using a smaller development period so they could fit more characters into the game, it's really not that complicated. Ganondorf is different because he's literally extremely different from Captain Falcon and doesn't really fight that way at all and was only developed that way because Melee was rushed in just a year, Lucina does fight like Marth.

 

Yeah, I'm well aware of how expensive development costs are.

Are you really? Because it sounds like you thought Lucina got as much dev time as any other character. She evidently didn't, and if she did, another character or factor of development would suffer for it.

 

How much of an increase would it be in the animation, QA, and hitboxes to at least make two of her specials unique like that of Wolf or Luigi? Would that be too expensive to do at the very least? Because that's the bare minimum to what I think would make Lucina unique in her own way.

 

And I really do not care about how intentional it was. In fact, that would actually make me more disappointed that she was made a clone in the first place, because if she had the same dev time as other characters, then she'd be a more unique character on her own strengths. But at any rate...

We don't know if she's different like Wolf or Luigi, but if she's not it just means she was made in an even shorter time to make room for other characters, she would basically be an alt skin with her own character box, which a lot of people would have considered preferable to her not being in at all. Also, she didn't get the dev time of other characters because there isn't enough dev time for that. Like I said, it's not like they're going to finish the game way early and twiddle their thumbs for the month up to release, they put little effort on Lucina because as far as the dev team are concerned, other factors need more focus.

 

It's fair enough if you don't like that she's a clone, I'm not telling you or anyone that you have to like it, I'm saying that from a purely developmental point of view it makes sense as far as making as many people happy as possible with limited development time and funds. Insulting the way the game is being developed isn't going to make them discover a way to pull time and money out of thin air. You don't seem to get that if Lucina had the dev time of a regular character (she evidently didn't) then some other factor of the game's development would be affected negatively.

 

Making Lucina a clone was a conscious choice that prioritises other factors of the game, Fire Emblem already has one full-fledged newcomer and 4 reps in total.

 

If Lucina got full development time instead of another character from another series, people would be more unreasonably annoyed that Sakurai is giving Fire Emblem so many reps because it would mean she did "take someone's slot" by taking dev time that would have been for someone else. Instead, it got one new rep and one rep that took a fraction of development and people are still annoyed. So in doing something he didn't have to do and adding in a little more fanservice, he just made people annoyed, seems kinda ungrateful to me.

 

Anyway I hope I've made my point clear this time, now, onto more important news:

 

 

Finally I have discovered proof that Pittoo is ON Smash Bros. ON Wii U.

[Salamander]

No I'm saying she was purposefully decided as a clone from point one, so more dev time could go into more unique characters, what is it about this that you don't get?

 

I would propose an alternative theory: What if Lucina was decided from point one as an alternative costume for Marth, and they only later decided that they wanted her to be slightly different?  This is how I'm reading her - not as a clone, but a glorified costume swap.  Sakurai's Miiverse notes give me this impression - she's not a lazy roster slot, she's a costume with more effort than usual, to the extent that it was felt misleading to bracket her with Marth.

[Dantemustdie00]

She's another female to the roster, she's heck of a lot more interesting than Marth is (and most other Fire Emblem protagonist), she's got a more awesome version of the Falchion and has a booty.

 

Shoot Marth isn't gonna exist to me anymore cause I'm only gonna use Lucina

[SuperLink]

I would propose an alternative theory: What if Lucina was decided from point one as an alternative costume for Marth, and they only later decided that they wanted her to be slightly different?  This is how I'm reading her - not as a clone, but a glorified costume swap.  Sakurai's Miiverse notes give me this impression - she's not a lazy roster slot, she's a costume with more effort than usual, to the extent that it was felt misleading to bracket her with Marth.

Yeah I think this explanation is perfectly possible too.

[Solkia]

so why is Japan getting this first? Will this game even sell over there?

[Red Cap]

so why is Japan getting this first? Will this game even sell over there?

 

It's coming out in Japan first because that's where it's being made, I guess. It probably takes a little while to translate all of the text in the games, what with the trophies and all. As far as it selling, of course it will. Smash Bros is popular over there, too. Not to the same extent as in western countries, but it's not dead or anything.

[canderson]

^I think the 3DS version will do extremely well in Japan, while Wii U sales may be miserable.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No I'm saying she was purposefully decided as a clone from point one, so more dev time could go into more unique characters, what is it about this that you don't get?

No, I get that. I'm saying it be better if that wasn't the case.

 

 

 

She didn't, again, what about this aren't you getting? Lucina was intentionally developed as a clone from point one using a smaller development period so they could fit more characters into the game, it's really not that complicated. Ganondorf is different because he's literally extremely different from Captain Falcon and doesn't really fight that way at all, Lucina does fight like Marth.

I know she didn't. And as I said before, I don't care if she was intentionally developed as a clone from the beginning because unless giving her just two different specials is too expensive, that seems like a missed opportunity here. While Lucina does fight like Marth, once again that doesn't mean there isn't room to differentiate her. Characters like Falco and Wolf fight like Fox but there's a room of difference between two of their special attacks to be different.

 

 

 

Are you really? Because it sounds like you thought Lucina got as much dev time as any other character. She evidently didn't, and if she did, another character or factor of development would suffer for it.

I know it was a hypothetical you gave me, hence where you specifically said "clone characters cut costs down". I'm saying that were that even the case (her getting equal dev time like other characters), that would make me all the more disappointed.

 

Tho I wouldn't mind if another character suffered if she did get the same dev time as the other characters, preferably Wii Fighters or Toon Link.

 

 

 

It's fair enough if you don't like that she's a clone, I'm not telling you or anyone that you have to like it, I'm saying that from a purely developmental point of view it makes sense as far as making as many people happy as possible with limited development time and funds. Insulting the way the game is being developed isn't going to make them discover a way to pull time and money out of thin air. You don't seem to get that if Lucina had the dev time of a regular character (she evidently didn't) then some other factor of the game's development would be affected negatively.

No, actually I do get it, it's just that depending on the factor that gets affected negatively I probably wouldn't care. I'm not asking for them to discover a way to pull time and money out of thin air, I'm wanting them to avoid making potentially unique character's as clones.

 

You're giving me information from a development point of view, and I appreciate it, because there were things I didn't know. But at the same time, this is probably where we're hitting brick walls, because I'm coming from a critical point of view, where if there's something I feel is a flaw that needs to be pointed out, I'm going to point it out regardless of what time and money was put into it and with the aim of offering a view of how this could have been done better. And as such I'm criticizing it for potentially making Lucina a clone with the open-minded hope that that might not be the case. I'll praise what good things have been done, but even then all the time and money isn't gonna prevent me from pointing something like this out as a disappointment.

 

 

 

If Lucina got full development time instead of another character from another series, people would be more unreasonably annoyed that Sakurai is giving Fire Emblem so many reps. Instead, it got one new rep and one rep that took a fraction of development and people are still annoyed. So in doing something he didn't have to do and adding in a little more fanservice, he just made people annoyed, seems kinda ungrateful to me.

And you know what I have to say about those people getting annoyed about giving a franchise so many reps or a character from that rep getting equal dev time? Let them be. They'll get over it (I know I most certainly will over this whole debacle even in spite my disappointment of Lucina not being her own unique fighter even with Marth's influences). And if they don't then that's too goddamned bad for them - I think those people are entitled bastards that don't deserve anymore than anyone else.

 

People already have such arbitrary rules over who should or shouldn't be in the game, but I've always admire Sakurai for not giving a damn and putting in reps he thinks would be more favorable. For every one character from whatever franchise that gets represented, someone's gonna be ticked that it wasn't their favorite character and be unreasonable about it.

 

A thing to be realistic about is that you cannot please everyone even if you're not being insulting to them, so don't try - instead please most people most of the time, preferably those that will still enjoy your work regardless of whether they criticize parts they feel were disappointing, and let those unhappy and declare that they're signing off sign off. Sakurai didn't have to bother making this game in the first place, but he did. That much I'm grateful for because I'd still just play Brawl instead. What's ungrateful to me is people complaining about not having their favorite characters get picked when everyone else has different favorites. Regardless of what Sakurai does, this game has a strong following that there's always a favorite for someone out there. And for those that aren't, there will always be new fans coming in to play from the ones that do.

[JaidynReiman]

Honestly, this whole argument is RIDICULOUS, people would be complaining FAR MORE if Lucina was a completely original character because it would mean Fire Emblem gets two completely brand new reps instead of just one and a very easy clone. I'm really not understanding the complaints. They threw in Lucina because she was an easy clone, and hell, IN HER GAME SHE FIGHTS JUST LIKE MARTH.

I was thinking Falco was going to be cut, but with this announcement, I definitely think everyone except Snake, Ivysaur, and Squirtle are back. There is no such thing as "character slots." There isn't an arbitrary number of slots the roster will have which will limit additional characters getting in. Lucina is a bonus, basically.

 

EDIT: This isn't the same situation with Ganondorf. At this point, I really think Ganondorf gets his own moveset, and Black Shadow will be added to get a slightly altered "heavyweight Captain Falcon" moveset to replace Ganondorf in that niche, for the people who did like Ganondorf's old moveset (which is next-to-no one, at least in Brawl). I'm also thinking that Wolf will be made more original, but Falco will be back as a semiclone.

[Xenos]

I said this in a status earlier, but why not go the DLC route then?

 

Probably'll get stabbed for saying that, but honestly, having characters in situations like Lucina, I would hold them off of putting them in the game overall for the time being, and then find ways to develop them into more unique characters. Sure they may be semi-clones or so, but they'd still be a lot better off compared to pure clones. Then they could be added into the game as DLC with their own alternate costumes and colors, simple.

 

I would have preferred that instead of the controversy of putting characters in purely just to have them.  and I don't need more reasons to cry over Marth that's for sure

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, this whole argument is RIDICULOUS, people would be complaining FAR MORE if Lucina was a completely original character because it would mean Fire Emblem gets two completely brand new reps instead of just one and a very easy clone. I'm really not understanding the complaints. They threw in Lucina because she was an easy clone, and hell, IN HER GAME SHE FIGHTS JUST LIKE MARTH.

So she has nothing in her game to give her any noticable differences in the way she fights? Absolutely nothing of her own at all? Or nothing in the Classes of her game that she can use to differentiate herself?