Popular and unpopular Sonic opinions you agree and disagree with!

[Gabby Jay]

Say what you want about Shadow, but he went from being just Sonic's evil doppelganger to being an agent for a peacekeeping organization. I'd like to see other characters treated the same way, instead of just being centerpieces for a new plot, and then completely pushed to the side after they've had their 15 seconds in the spotlight.

 Isn't that pretty much what happened with Tails in "Tails' Adventures" way back on the Game Gear, even though the game felt more (to me, at least) like an RPG-styled experiment? Ah, then again I haven't really messed with anything related to the Sonic series of anything in a few years, so what do I know?

 

[Kuzu]

How is making Knuckles a treasure-hunter (something that's already been heavily hinted at and shown in other games and material) contrived, though? Characters should be able to grow and acquire new motivations, so they can remain relevant and keep up with new plots. (Again, I think Shadow is a fine example of this).
The games already plop Knuckles into things willy-nilly, with no justification. All I'm saying is that they should start providing proper justification for it.

That's what I'm getting at though; your express motivation for making Knuckles a treasure hunter is to justify his appearances, but what happens when the story doesn't call for a treasure hunter? What's Knuckles left to do?

So rather, instead of making him a treasure hunter just so he can appear, how about making a story where a treasure hunter is needed so his appearance is justified? See where I'm going with this? Knuckles feels less shoehorned into the game because he has an actual reason for being there.

 

Eh. If you wanted, I guess the most appropriate thing would have been perhaps Chaos reacting towards Knuckles in a "Hey, I didn't kill all of you" kind of way (although to be fair there is a boss fight between the two), but considering Chaos was intent on simply destroying everything because fuck the world, one can argue that Knuckles was pretty irrelevant to Chaos in his blind state of rage anyway. After all, it's not like he was the one who ordered that army to advance or was one of the soldiers. At that point in time it didn't really matter to Chaos who you were- just that you needed to die. Knuckles isn't special in that regard.

That's true, but as you said, Chaos could have just reacted out of pure instinct; remember, Chaos is a bit feral in its mindset considering its first reaction to being threatened is to kill everything. I mean I wouldn't put it past it to be like "hey, you look like one of those fuckers who pissed me off". I mean ultimately, it doesn't really make the overall game change as you said, but I do understand the point of Knuckles` emotions towards his ancestors being built on just a bit. Something as small as giving Knuckles more of a motivation to the protect the Master Emerald than his mostly indifferent attitude on the whole thing.

But this is getting off topic about his appearances in the games; ultimately, Sonic Adventure may not have fleshed out as much as it could have, but I don't agree that Knuckles was superfluous to the game itself, mostly because without him, you kinda lose some connection between the past and present.

[Chaos Controller]

 Isn't that pretty much what happened with Tails in "Tails' Adventures" way back on the Game Gear, even though the game felt more (to me, at least) like an RPG-styled experiment? Ah, then again I haven't really messed with anything related to the Sonic series of anything in a few years, so what do I know?

Kind of, in a sense. But, at least he still turns up in almost every Sonic game still, and still fulfills (for the most part) the original role he was assigned -- being Sonic's sidekick.

That's what I'm getting at though; your express motivation for making Knuckles a treasure hunter is to justify his appearances, but what happens when the story doesn't call for a treasure hunter? What's Knuckles left to do?

So rather, instead of making him a treasure hunter just so he can appear, how about making a story where a treasure hunter is needed so his appearance is justified? See where I'm going with this? Knuckles feels less shoehorned into the game because he has an actual reason for being there.

I... completely agree with you. I'm not really sure how we're disagreeing on this point right now?

(As a side note, though, a treasure hunter wasn't called for in the Sonic OVA either. It just gave Knuckles a greater sense of freedom, instead of him having to be coerced into leaving Angel Island to help out.)

[Diogenes]

I can agree with this, but I do admit I would have liked to get some reaction out of Chaos towards Knuckles, or Tikal to interact with him directly. When you think about it, Knuckles arguably could have played as big a role in the plot as Sonic himself given all of the crap happening.

Eh, Sonic doesn't actually have all that big a role anyway. He's got the longest story, and he's the one who takes down Chaos in the end, but most of his story is just "fight Eggman, because duh". SA is kind of weird in that "the real story" just sort of stumbles in around the edges of each character's personal story.

Also I still think the best thing to do with Knuckles is to make "the Master Emerald is shattered and Knuckles is out looking for the shards" into the new status quo. It keeps the emerald and the island important to him without keeping him chained to a physical location so he can easily intersect almost any story they'd want to use him in.

[Chaos Controller]

Eh, Sonic doesn't actually have all that big a role anyway. He's got the longest story, and he's the one who takes down Chaos in the end, but most of his story is just "fight Eggman, because duh". SA is kind of weird in that "the real story" just sort of stumbles in around the edges of each character's personal story.

Also I still think the best thing to do with Knuckles is to make "the Master Emerald is shattered and Knuckles is out looking for the shards" into the new status quo. It keeps the emerald and the island important to him without keeping him chained to a physical location so he can easily intersect almost any story they'd want to use him in.

That's a really interesting idea. So, you think he should just be on a never-ending search for the shards of the Master Emerald? And his search always typically intersects with whatever Sonic's latest adventure is?

I actually really like that a lot.

[Kuzu]

I... completely agree with you. I'm not really sure how we're disagreeing on this point right now?
(As a side note, though, a treasure hunter wasn't called for in the Sonic OVA either. It just gave Knuckles a greater sense of freedom, instead of him having to be coerced into leaving Angel Island to help out.)

I'm not really disagreeing, but rather trying to get you to understand how character importance and placement works. If you simply wanted Knuckles to appear, then he's technically done so :V, if you want him to play a bigger role, then what role should he play? Just want more fleshed out answers is all.

And the OVA is technically a different universe...and he doesn't do much in it in all honesty  I mean, it was nice to see him and I welcomed his appearance, but he was more or less a supporting character.

 

Eh, Sonic doesn't actually have all that big a role anyway. He's got the longest story, and he's the one who takes down Chaos in the end, but most of his story is just "fight Eggman, because duh". SA is kind of weird in that "the real story" just sort of stumbles in around the edges of each character's personal story.

>Sonic doesn't have a big role

>His role is just fighting the main antagonists of the plot and solving the entire conflict.

?

Seriously though, I get what you're saying, but I think its worded wrong. The story isn't about Sonic, which is indeed true as you said, but he's still the hero who resolves the entire conflict. That's kind of an important role don't you think. I mean yea, Sonic Adventure technically has six protagonists, but Sonic is definitely at the highest of the totem pole in terms of plot importance. 

[Chaos Controller]

I'm not really disagreeing, but rather trying to get you to understand how character importance and placement works. If you simply wanted Knuckles to appear, then he's technically done so :V, if you want him to play a bigger role, then what role should he play? Just want more fleshed out answers is all.

And the OVA is technically a different universe...and he doesn't do much in it in all honesty  I mean, it was nice to see him and I welcomed his appearance, but he was more or less a supporting character.

Oooooh, gotcha.
I guess, above all else, I just want Knuckles to act as the go-to guy for all things related to world mythology or the Chaos Emeralds. If Tails is the "gadgeteer", Knuckles should be the "historian". Dude is the last member of a very powerful and ancient race, and guards the Emeralds. I feel like he should definitely be a guy that Sonic has on speed-dial, when he has any questions about the great unknown. Him being a "treasure hunter" would just be cool way to bring Rouge and Nack back, I think. That's why I always push for it. It's my own little personal deal.

And, yeah, the OVA is certainly a different universe. I do like a lot of ideas from it, though.
 

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[Diogenes]

 

That's a really interesting idea. So, you think he should just be on a never-ending search for the shards of the Master Emerald? And his search always typically intersects with whatever Sonic's latest adventure is?

I actually really like that a lot.

Pretty much. What I'd do is, have a game with a lot of Knuckles/Angel Island/Master Emerald focus as a sort of sendoff for the whole guardian bit, and have the emerald get destroyed in the climax. Probably in space/upper atmosphere, so the shards could scatter all over Earth, probably as a desperate last-ditch sacrifice that Knuckles was obviously not comfortable with. Then the epilogue has him gearing up for a long journey, with sort of mixed feelings about failing to protect the emerald/his island but also kind of looking ahead and moving on to the next stage of his life.

So then you've got Knuckles out there treasure hunting, he's got his own long-term goal so it makes sense that he doesn't always tag along with Sonic, but it's easy to have him show up and say something like "hey I sensed something here and I thought it might be a shard" and Sonic goes "well we're up to our necks in shit with Eggman so let's help each other out". And maybe there is a shard and maybe there's not, and maybe Knuckles sticks around till the end and maybe he doesn't, they can write it whichever way they want and make it believable enough.

[Chaos Controller]

 

Pretty much. What I'd do is, have a game with a lot of Knuckles/Angel Island/Master Emerald focus as a sort of sendoff for the whole guardian bit, and have the emerald get destroyed in the climax. Probably in space/upper atmosphere, so the shards could scatter all over Earth, probably as a desperate last-ditch sacrifice that Knuckles was obviously not comfortable with. Then the epilogue has him gearing up for a long journey, with sort of mixed feelings about failing to protect the emerald/his island but also kind of looking ahead and moving on to the next stage of his life.

So then you've got Knuckles out there treasure hunting, he's got his own long-term goal so it makes sense that he doesn't always tag along with Sonic, but it's easy to have him show up and say something like "hey I sensed something here and I thought it might be a shard" and Sonic goes "well we're up to our necks in shit with Eggman so let's help each other out". And maybe there is a shard and maybe there's not, and maybe Knuckles sticks around till the end and maybe he doesn't, they can write it whichever way they want and make it believable enough.

Love it.

[Bowbowis]

As far as Knuckles goes I don't really see anything particularly wrong with just saying that when there is a visible threat to the world there is, by extension, a clear and present danger to the Master Emerald and thus in defending the world Knuckles is also fulfilling his duty as guardian. The thing is you have to actually say it. You don't even have to make a big deal out it, just including a throwaway line explaining that Earth in danger = Emerald in danger = Knuckles. Hell toss in the "Chaos emerges in times of crisis" tidbit from from Battle to explain how he can afford to be more proactive in these situations too. Anything would be better than just having him continue to show up for no reason whatsoever.

Of course if they do go with that explanation they actually have to abide by it. That means Knuckles doesn't intervene unless the Emerald is directly threatened or the world is in such grave peril that it's indirectly threatened. It also means that Knuckles actually has to do stuff when he does intervene. No more pointless cameos! *Glares at Lost World*

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Okay, late response, I know... 

 Know what else is uncalled for? Getting bent outta shape over a completely harmless and obvious joke.

Like I said, I'm not bent out of shape. But you sounded less like you were joking and more like you were goading, which isn't exactly a harmless and obvious joke.

Either way, chill. If it isn't that serious to you, don't treat it as such yourself when someone doesn't see it as a joke.

It wasn't really his place to give them knowledge about the Gaia Temples, a.k.a. the things responsible for recharging the Chaos Emeralds? Isn't Knuckles's knowledge of the Master and Chaos Emeralds unparalleled? I feel like he would've definitely known a great deal about those.

I honestly don't think either of us are really wrong on this one. They should have Knuckles be the keeper of the Master Emerald, but also have him globe-trotting to find more answers about his past. Have Tikal and Chaos hold down the fort back home, so he doesn't have to stay rooted down there all the time, like a watchdog. I think that's a beautiful compromise. You make it seem like both of our ideas for approaching the character are mutually exclusive. I don't think they are.

The Sonic OVA introduced the concept of Knuckles being a treasure hunter, and SA2 introduced Rouge the Bat -- a treasure hunter -- as his rival. I, personally, think that's grounds for giving the "Treasure-hunting Knuckles idea" a hard look. Hell, he could find another rival in Nack the Weasel. Bring that bastard back. I'd welcome it.

Also, in regards to the other good point that Bowbowis brought up: Do you think that, ultimately, that's a good thing? Or would you like to see Sonic's personality and role be altered. If so, then it what way?

No, it wasn't his place, which is why Professor Pickle was made to fill that role because the Gaia Temples predate the Echidnas by millions of years. Knuckles is a guardian, but no where was it said that Knuckles's of the Chaos Emeralds unparalleled, otherwise he'd have been a lot more useful in many other plots involving them. The Master Emerald is a different story, and one that would certainly prove useful, which were it involved I wouldn't say anything about it.

Now, it's less that I think that our ideas are mutually exclusive than it has been treated as such in past discussions here. I'm not against Knuckles finding out more about his past - I encourage it actually, given what Sonic Chronicles has done - but I'm against any hint of disregarding the Master Emerald to do so when it's far too useful to throw away. It's great you're not for that.

Now at the same, I'm also for strong individual characters with their own motives in a story. You suggest the idea of Tikal and Chaos holding down the fort back home, but with that being brought out, why not have them involved instead of being the watch dogs in place of Knuckles given that they have much more extraordinary abilities that would be far more useful? An idea like that can be easily abused and lead right back to square one of this whole discussion. You brought up the comics (which I agree does this well, hence why I prefer it's stories over the games right now), but they've done things much differently than you suggest - Chaos leaves the Emerald Alter to take control of the oceans with Dark Gaia running amok, and it was Tikal who knew more about the Gaia Temples while Knuckles knew nothing of them (which makes sense given that she's strongly connected to the supernatural now), leaving a different character who was motivated to study Angel Island to watch over the Master Emerald in Knuckles' place.

Sonic OVA introduced Knuckles being a treasure hunter, but this is a different Knuckles because he was never a guardian in that setting in the first place, which is why I'm okay with that in it's own established rules. Game wise (not counting the Boom series) isn't exactly like that here, which is why I kinda have a problem with it over other continuities that have their own established rules for their different universes.

As for what Bowbowis said about Sonic - I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it makes perfect sense actually, but I don't think this disallows Sonic to be personally involved in things. I'd say that Sonic is personally involved for different reasons, but his reasons are intertwined with other characters who take a lot of focus themselves. And given how flexible Sonic is already, it's not like he can't still be himself while being a dynamic character who makes a few changes to parts of his personality over time as long as it flows naturally. I have no set way over how he does that so long as it is natural and fluid for Sonic, although if you were to force me to pick I'd go for the Archie!Sonic persona more given how he has a much more diverse range to his personality and is one that can be temporarily broken and rebuilt into someone stronger.

Edited October 14, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Chaos Controller]

Fair enough on all points, ChaosSupremeSonic. *crosses arms and nods head vigorously*

What did you make of Diogenes's idea? I actually think it's a pretty ingenious way to approach Knuckles now, without entirely aping the comics (which, in all honesty, I wouldn't mind at all. But, still.)

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Eh, Sonic doesn't actually have all that big a role anyway. He's got the longest story, and he's the one who takes down Chaos in the end, but most of his story is just "fight Eggman, because duh". SA is kind of weird in that "the real story" just sort of stumbles in around the edges of each character's personal story.

Yes he does. Yes I know that Sonic didnt get much attention like the others which was one reason I hated the Adventure series. But his role was more than "fight Eggman because I wanna". 

He starts off the game with the goal to rescue his friend and then it goes to fighting Eggman. And hes fighting him because of the chaos creature. You also find more about the past with him and he is the one that says that you cant just seal it because it will be angry forever. Forgive me for this part but the sweetest thing was that super Sonic struck a nerve with his heart in the end and chaos went back to being orginally what it was. 

[Chaos Controller]

Yes he does. Yes I know that Sonic didnt get much attention like the others which was one reason I hated the Adventure series. But his role was more than "fight Eggman because I wanna". 

He starts off the game with the goal to rescue his friend and then it goes to fighting Eggman. And hes fighting him because of the chaos creature. You also find more about the past with him and he is the one that says that you cant just seal it because it will be angry forever. Forgive me for this part but the sweetest thing was that super Sonic struck a nerve with his heart in the end and chaos went back to being orginally what it was. 

Either way, I definitely like how Sonic was treated in SA2 a lot more. Mistaken for an evil doppelganger and framed, so now he's gotta clear his name and fight this "faker" to prove who truly is the fastest hedgehog... Oh, and he also teaches himself how to do Chaos Control.

I've always kinda viewed Sonic as Indiana Jones or James Bond. A fast thinking, seasoned adventure who isn't really affected by the events transpiring around him but, rather, he affects everything/everyone else by his presence.

I don't too much mind that. But, it would be really nice to learn more about Sonic, and put him in more interesting situations that can't always simply be solved with a snarky disposition and super-speed.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Chaos Controller

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Fair enough on all points, ChaosSupremeSonic. *crosses arms and nods head vigorously*

What did you make of Diogenes's idea? I actually think it's a pretty ingenious way to approach Knuckles now, without entirely aping the comics (which, in all honesty, I wouldn't mind at all. But, still.)

He's made that point a almost 4 years ago, and I've agreed with it. It caused a hell of a stir, but I've never changed my mind on it ever since he brought it up.

 

...

...

Wait a fucking moment...you guys know what's fucking hilarious looking back?  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ARCHIE SONIC IS DOING RIGHT NOW IN THE UNLEASHED ARC! WORD FOR WORD!!!!!!!!!

Like holy shit! 

Edited October 14, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Damn this is kinda why I look up to you. Because of your points. I agree everything about Knuckles finding all the peices forever. It gives the duty but he can still be on Team Sonic and help his best friends out.

(and its way better than the people who say he needs to be replaced with Amy)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, I disagree with Knuckles being replaced with Amy, or any character replacing each other for that matter.

My opinion is that each and almost character is a standalone figure that can have a starring role in the spotlight, or at least have a major role when given the chance. I can pick one character, and they can carry a story of their own, rather than have these characters be known for their friends or which team they belong in.

I see characters as individuals first, not teams, because there's a story of their own in each one. Which is why I'm not really fond of people preferring to restrict characters to the way Sonic Heroes had organized them. They can still be friends who hang out with each other, but they should have their own lives, and be able to be friends and hang out with other characters as well. It's much more colorful and interesting that way, and you see new sides of characters that were never developed before.

[Chaos Controller]

He's made that point a almost 4 years ago, and I've agreed with it. It caused a hell of a stir, but I've never changed my mind on it ever since he brought it up.

 

...

...

Wait a fucking moment...you guys know what's fucking hilarious looking back?  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ARCHIE SONIC IS DOING RIGHT NOW IN THE UNLEASHED ARC! WORD FOR WORD!!!!!!!!!

Like holy shit! 

It is. That's why I like it so much.

Though, I wonder how soon he'll get all the pieces back? I do like the idea of it being never-ending, as Diogenes proposed.

[Indigo Rush]

He's made that point a almost 4 years ago, and I've agreed with it. It caused a hell of a stir, but I've never changed my mind on it ever since he brought it up.

 

...

...

Wait a fucking moment...you guys know what's fucking hilarious looking back?  THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT ARCHIE SONIC IS DOING RIGHT NOW IN THE UNLEASHED ARC! WORD FOR WORD!!!!!!!!!

Like holy shit! 

Archie canon is best canon

[Chaos Controller]

Archie canon is best canon

Amen to that. Ken Penders throwing a bitch-fit and forcing Archie to reboot was easily the best thing that could've happened to the comics, in my opinion.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Archie canon is best canon

That and it's strongly likely that somebody in Archie has been reading this forum more thoroughly than anyone expected.

We've been having suspicions that Ian Flynn and the people at Archie browses this place given a lot of things that have been said here, but holy shit they're really using us as an idea fountain after looking back into that topic and seeing how that is the same thing we've said years ago.

Now if only Penders would screw off with the whole Sonic Chronicles thing so I can see my ideas on the Nocturnus Tribe come true...

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

If they did then we have members who should be giving idea for Archie

[Chaos Controller]

That and it's strongly likely that somebody in Archie has been reading this forum more thoroughly than anyone expected.

We've been having suspicions that Ian Flynn and the people at Archie browses this place given a lot of things that have been said here, but holy shit they're really using us as an idea fountain after looking back into that topic and seeing how that is the same thing we've said years ago.

Now if only Penders would screw off with the whole Sonic Chronicles thing so I can see my ideas on the Nocturnus Tribe come true...

Shade the Echidna = way better Julie-Su.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I like Julie su. Her outfit and weapons are fucking cool as hell

[E-122-Psi]

Meh, both of them were a nice concept executed kinda dull. Both of them have kinda dull personalities, and their face turns were kinda blunt and without a great deal of setup, mostly just because they want another echidna for Knuckles to bond with (we have enough 'easily forgiven anti heroes' anyway). I might credit Shade SLIGHTLY because she has a more unique design though, not to mention the Nocturnous were mercifully less convoluted in backstory and concept than the Archie echidnas.

Edited October 14, 2015 by E-122-Psi