Other Villains in the Series

[Diogenes]

By living, I meant humans and/or other anthros.

That's speciesist.

It would just look awkward for them to be knocked out and lying all over the stage like they did in Shadow, or even weirder if they just disappeared or turned into rings or other collectibles once jumped on/homing attack. I just don't think it fits the Sonic aesthetic.

For a 2D game, you can have them bounce offscreen, like in Tails Adventure or something.

[Dr. Crusher]

Nope.

Seriously, I'm happy enough with how things are. No problems at all with Ivo. It's good times for oneself's desires.

...Fine. Count me in as another who'd like to see Nack/Bean/Bark as the comical, Croco/Jr. Troopa/Popple-esque trio, since that would help seperate the Good (Sonic & Co.), the Bad (Nack and Co.) and the Evil (Robotnik). Otherwise, the other Not-Robotnik villains should be more akin to Erazor, Merlina and Imperator Ix. That is, more to him/her than existing as a walking, talking and laughing armageddon bomb (Mephiles, Black Doom). Or someone who only exists to make the original version look heroic (Nega).

Metal Sonic should retain his I AM THE REAL SONIC personality, but he'd still be loyal to Robotnik, and not just "because he wants to kill Sonic", he should have a bigger leash than that. Combine his Heroes delusions, Sonic CD/Sonic 4 persistence, and OVA ferocity, and it's all good.

But whenever it's about the other villains, pull a Black Knight and leave Robotnik out of it. That way he doesn't get the obligatory "secondary" threat/Enemy Mine treatment, and it leaves a mystery to what he's doing while Sonic's fighting... I don't know, cowboy geckos or some shit.

So in short, while I highly disagree with the original poster's remarks about Robotnik being the same old, especially when others such as Bowser and the Joker never get this kind of flak, their respective series having other villains notwithstanding, I suppose there wouldn't be any harm if this was how things went down.

If older villains could be brought back, I wouldn't mind seeing Kukku or the aforementioned Ix again. Oh, and Johnny, who will never die in my heart.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[Kuzu]

So in short, while I highly disagree with the original poster's remarks about Robotnik being the same old, especially when others such as Bowser and the Joker never get this kind of flak, their respective series having other villains notwithstanding, I suppose there wouldn't be any harm if this was how things went down.

You really can't make this comparison because Joker isn't always the main threat Batman faces, and the RPG's change it up plenty. I think it's people would get tired of Robotnik if he was literally the only threat they faced and no one else.

[Dr. Crusher]

Yes, I mentioned that both Mario and Batman have a more wider Rogues Gallery, even if most of Mario's never come back. What I meant was, while the other villains show up in the Mario RPGs, Bowser's almost always the villain and final boss of the main platformers, and everyone's fine with that, so I don't see how they couldn't do something like that with Robotnik and any other Sonic villains. (And for the record, nothing against Bowser, but he tends to change it up a lot less than Robotnik, apart from the Galaxy series.)

As for the Joker... it's less him and more his fanbase. Sometimes other Batman villains tend to get flak simply for not being the Joker, which is rather annoying if you're more of a Scarecrow/Riddler/Bane fan like I am. But you get the idea.

[Kuzu]

Yes, I mentioned that both Mario and Batman have a more wider Rogues Gallery, even if most of Mario's never come back. What I meant was, while the other villains show up in the Mario RPGs, Bowser's almost always the villain and final boss of the main platformers, and everyone's fine with that, so I don't see how they couldn't do something like that with Robotnik and any other Sonic villains. (And for the record, nothing against Bowser, but he tends to change it up a lot less than Robotnik, apart from the Galaxy series.)

As for the Joker... it's less him and more his fanbase. Sometimes other Batman villains tend to get flak simply for not being the Joker, which is rather annoying if you're more of a Scarecrow/Riddler/Bane fan like I am. But you get the idea.

Mario doesn't have a story outside of the RPG's, so nobody really gives a damn if the Bowser is the main villain or not. Sonic not only has a story, but more fleshed out characters as well, unless the games become even more paper thin than they are, then Eggman being the constant threat will get boring fast. Come on, would Batman be as entertaining if he never fought anyone else beside The Joker?

[Diogenes]

Mario doesn't have a story outside of the RPG's, so nobody really gives a damn if the Bowser is the main villain or not.

I do.

[Dr. Crusher]

Me too, actually. And Bowser isn't even my favourite. (I'm more a Grodus/Fawful/Wario person.) Yet I still realise that Bowser's one of the most important aspects of the Mario universe. The same goes for Sonic. You can have plenty of other villains, but in the end, it ultimately boils down to Sonic VS Robotnik.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[WarioBone]

I totally said that Bowser wasn't exempt from the rule. He's still boring, but the Mario series breaks it up with the spin-offs, at least.

But whatever, carry on.

[Sarah Jane Smith]

I love Bowser, he's one of my favourite game characters, but he is getting REALLY boring nowadays, but then again the entire Mario franchise is too.

[Kuzu]

I do.

I do too, but generally speaking nobody really does care, Nintendo is pretty notorious about not changing things about their games.

Me too, actually. And Bowser isn't even my favourite. (I'm more a Grodus/Fawful/Wario person.) Yet I still realise that Bowser's one of the most important aspects of the Mario universe. The same goes for Sonic. You can have plenty of other villains, but in the end, it ultimately boils down to Sonic VS Robotnik.

Nobody saying it shouldn't, but would a break from Eggman really be such a terrible idea, ya know if the villain we got was actually good? You yourself said you liked the likes of Erazor and Merlina, so really more villains like them wouldn't make Eggman's absence stand out that much.

[- Eternal Paradox -]

Hmm... I was just thinking about how the villians work in Batman: Arkham Asylum. During that game, you had Joker, who was the ringleader of it all, but you also had a string of other villians who each had their own motives - Harley was Joker's sidekick, I think Scarecrow wanted to test his new fear gas (and get revenge on batman, I think), Bane and Killer Croc were just monsters who wanted to to kill Batman, and Ivy had a seprate plan restore the world to the plants. (Zasz was just a random pyshcopath.)

Although you had all these seprate villians though, Joker was the ringleader and his main plot was present all the way through, although he was usurped by Ivy towards the end, he took control back and she was used really more as a distraction for batman so he could finish his plans.

So perhaps this could work in Sonic? Eggman has the big, main plot, but there are also other, alternative villians with differenting objectives (not nessicary all in one game).

I'm thinking:

Orbot/Cubot - Eggman's lackeys.

Nack/Rouge/Babylon Rouges - bribed by eggman, or trying to find/steal some kind of treasure (Not so sure about rouge)

Metal Sonic - Wants to kill Sonic to prove he is better.

Edited August 23, 2012 by Paradox

[WarioBone]

Hmm... I was just thinking about how the villians work in Batman: Arkham Asylum. During that game, you had Joker, who was the ringleader of it all, but you also had a string of other villians who each had their own motives - Harley was Joker's sidekick, I think Scarecrow wanted to test his new fear gas (and get revenge on batman, I think), Bane and Killer Croc were just monsters who wanted to to kill Batman, and Ivy had a seprate plan restore the world to the plants. (Zasz was just a random pyshcopath.)

Although you had all these seprate villians though, Joker was the ringleader and his main plot was present all the way through, although he was usurped by Ivy towards the end, he took control back and she was used really more as a distraction for batman so he could finish his plans.

So perhaps this could work in Sonic? Eggman has the big, main plot, but there are also other, alternative villians with differenting objectives (not nessicary all in one game).

I'm thinking:

Orbot/Cubot - Eggman's lackeys.

Nack/Rouge/Babylon Rouges - bribed by eggman, or trying to find/steal some kind of treasure (Not so sure about rouge)

Metal Sonic - Wants to kill Sonic to prove he is better.

But it would still be Eggman. He doesn't have to be behind EVERYTHING, you know. He should take a break for a game, then come back with something REALLY intense in his reappearance. Kind of so you're like "Where's Eggman...?" the whole game, and he never shows up.

But then in the next one, he's like "DEATH EGG MK III" and blows up the planet.

[TheOcelot]

But it would still be Eggman. He doesn't have to be behind EVERYTHING, you know. He should take a break for a game, then come back with something REALLY intense in his reappearance. Kind of so you're like "Where's Eggman...?" the whole game, and he never shows up.

But then in the next one, he's like "DEATH EGG MK III" and blows up the planet.

Eggman needs a lieutenant who isn't made of metal or is a robot. Needs to be human.

I am sorry, I loved the Death Egg in S3&K as it was awesome, but the Death Egg idea has been done to death. I want something else. Also, not every Sonic game needs to end in space. Feels like a lack of imagination to me.

Edited August 23, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[WarioBone]

Eggman needs a lieutenant who isn't made of metal or is a robot. Needs to be human.

I am sorry, I loved the Death Egg in S3&K as it was awesome, but the Death Egg idea has been done to death. I want something else. Also, not every Sonic game needs to end in space. Feels like a lack of imagination to me.

I was just throwing that out there as an example. I'd prefer something new and exciting.

[Multikaris]

Maybe Silver losing himself to his dark side?

[Wraith]

Silver doesn't even HAVE a dark side.

[WarioBone]

Silver barely has a light side.

[TheOcelot]

Silver is just like Raiden in MGS2. You can't help but like him. You want to hug him and yet at the same time kick his arse.

I think Knuckles should go evil again. Poor gullable Knuckles.

[WarioBone]

Silver is just like Raiden in MGS2. You can't help but like him.

Er...yeah, I can.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Silver is just like Raiden in MGS2. You can't help but like him. You want to hug him and yet at the same time kick his arse.

Da fuq?

You must be joking. Raiden in MGS2 was generally hated for all sorts of reasons, and it was only until MGS4 did it turn a lot of his hate around. That being said that some people are stubborn and refuse to believe he went from bad to good, but if Silver is the equivalent of MGS2 Raiden then your just insulting him, quite frankly.

[NintendoSoul]

We've had Robotnik for years. He's generally responsible for everything bad happens that within the games, be it something of his own design or some MotW destroying the planet. He's been in every game besides Sonic and the Black Knight (I think), and usually has a main role.

However, do you think Eggman constantly being the Man Behind the Man, or just the Big Bad in general, is getting old? I know that, with the main Mario series, it is (although they have the relief of the RPGS and such). I think it would be nice, for once, for Eggman to not be involved in the plot of the baddies. He could still appear, of course, but we've been fighting Eggman for 20 years. The same robots, the same basic plots, (Chaos Emeralds + Monster/Alien Energy = Rule World, sometimes minus the monster), the same villain, over and over.

Do you think that another, new villain could be beneficial to the series? He could even be a one-shot. Yeah, a lot of the other one-shot villains have sucked (Black Doom, Ix), but they don't have to. I'd like a scenario where Sonic and the others are automatically like "God, Eggman, what the fuck are you doing now?" and he's like "I seriously have no idea what you're talking about."

Then again, my mind keeps going back to Black Doom. I'd love to see Empire vs. Other Army again, but actually done well. Imagine running through a battlefield with tons of lasers and explosions and stuff, altering the landscape.

What do you guys think? Any ideas for a new villain?

This is why I liked Eggman getting upstaged as the villian in so many games, it was nice to face someone different.

[Dr. Crusher]

This is why I liked Eggman getting upstaged as the villian in so many games, it was nice to face someone different.

But not if they're combining the triple no-sell of churning out one after another, mostly being nothing more than generic DESTROY FUCKING EVERYTHING black holes, and reducing Robotnik to a pathetic state. This works in no one's favor - Robotnik fans obviously get pissed off, and the new villains barely have legitimate personalites other than "Monologue in a deep voice, laugh, destroy things, laugh, try to trick someone despite looking like the spawn of the devil, laugh, monologue again with words like 'despair' and 'darkness', turn into giant monster, get blasted in the eye, die."

If they had variety, and appeared in seperate games ala Merlina, then things would be okay.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Dr. Crusher

[TheOcelot]

Da fuq?

You must be joking. Raiden in MGS2 was generally hated for all sorts of reasons, and it was only until MGS4 did it turn a lot of his hate around. That being said that some people are stubborn and refuse to believe he went from bad to good, but if Silver is the equivalent of MGS2 Raiden then your just insulting him, quite frankly.

My point, is that Silver is a perfectly good character and seems to get quite a lot of critism which I think is unfair.

Raiden was a perfectly good playable character in MGS2. He was younger than Snake and thus had better moves. Raiden seemed to get his so called bad reputation purely from the cutscenes in that game, It's true that Raiden was made out to be a hero in the MGS4 cutscenes, and he was. He is seriously cool in that game, but it's the gameplay that truely matters, and what ultimately he should be judged on.

It terms of the so called hate being turned around? Bring on Metal Gear Rising: Revengenace. If the gameplay is really good then surely people will like Raiden. For me, he is a great character and always was.

Edited August 24, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Multikaris]

A new villain. A vampire who is sarcastic and has a crush on rouge. She does not want to return the favor. He has an affinity for fast food.

[Diogenes]

Raiden was a perfectly good playable character in MGS2. He was younger than Snake and thus had better moves. Raiden seemed to get his so called bad reputation purely from the cutscenes in that game, It's true that Raiden was made out to be a hero in the MGS4 cutscenes, and he was. He is seriously cool in that game, but it's the gameplay that truely matters, and what ultimately he should be judged on.

Actually a character should be judged on their characterization. You can have great gameplay with a shitty character and shitty gameplay with a great character.