Should Silver be in the select screen again?

[Diogenes]

If the combat is anything like it was in '06, it's still clunky and shallow as hell. Grab some things, throw them, hope they actually hit what you want them to hit.

[ELVIS]

Silver - Yes

Mephiles -

Edited August 9, 2012 by Wolfy13

[MegaMan_EXE]

This is going nowhere.

[ELVIS]

Sonic Rivals 1 and 2 were trainwrecks.

And as I said multiple times...

Silver isn't ment to be fast, he's supposed to be a platforming character.

Silver can be fast, but shouldn't boost. In Rivals, Silver could run at the same speed as everyone, but not run as fast as Sonic, Shadow and Blaze could ever be. That is how Silver should be from now on, not slow and not really fast either. Only when flying he should be as fast as them, like he was in SG.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Wolfy13

[TheOcelot]

I personally think of Silver as a slightly more advanced version of Knuckles. Although I think of Knuckles as ten times more cool.

Silver deserves another chance at a 3d Sonic game. He can be a good/fun playable character with decent gameplay.

Edited August 9, 2012 by MilesKnightwing

[Chaos Warp]

I always thought as Silver as someone with really low foot speed, but was able to go fast through hovering as shown in Gens. So if he was playable, he would have to be flying along the ground at his top speed.

[Chibinuva]

Since it seems like flying would be good for Silver, I'd like to suggest more open levels. As much as I'd love for a Sonic game to have an open-world environment to explore, I doubt that's going to happen, so i'd say more open levels would be the next best thing, and would be a good way to accommodate for his flight. It depends on how exactly the flight is controlled too. I realize I'm stealing ideas from Lego Batman 2, but that doesn't mean they couldn't work. The main issue is if we're going to have levitation like in 06, or full fledged flight like in the Generations boss fight, then it's all a matter of determining how to control said flight. If it's like the levitation in 06, we could do it something like 06, or it could possibly be done like the flight in Lego Batman 2: you can move around normally, double jump to access flight mode, hold A while flying to increase altitude, press or hold Z to lower your altitude/return to walking, ect. The main issue I'd see with this is, given this would be a platformer, it could be too gamebreaking, depending on how the levels were designed (ATM, I can't think of how you would design the levels around this.)

If on the other hand, we give Silver full-fledged flight, it should work similarly to in Generations. Again, the question is how it would control. First off, should it be unlimited, or should it be limited to a power bar similar to either his ESP meter in 06 or Sonic's boost meter? Second, how should the directional control work. Will he just turn left or right with the control stick like Sonic does on the ground, will he be able to perform any of Sonic's moves like drift or sidestep, or will we give him moves similar to airplanes like doing loops or barrel rolls? Finally, how will the altitude control work. Will he remain at a set height above the ground, or will he remain the same height unless you move him manually? Will he be able to be moved manually, and if so, will there be limits? Also, the question of things like pits. Will he have to say, have enough boost energy (if that mechanic is used,) or speed to say, fly off a ramp over a gap, or will he be able to just fly over them without worry of falling?

[A.T.]

Eh, Silver I honestly don't know.... Personally I don't care for Silver. I like the concept SEGA came up with to develop a new character and new ideas but I don't think he deserves a solo story. Personally I'm more of a Shadow fan boy. I don't know if I would say Shadow would deserve another solo game but for sure another game that he is in. Silver I wouldn't mind playing as if they fixed all the bugs in him and added more interesting info about him and better abilities.

[G-Force]

I make no secret of the fact that I'd really prefer other characters have abilities that re-use Sonic's HA cursor, but in Silver's case it feels like it might seem a bit limiting, at least in comparison to his '06 moveset. Key among them is that it makes a decent means to manipulate multiple objects at a time essentially impossible, which reduces Silver to little more than a walking Gravity Gun ripoff for the most part. Ultimately though, Silver's flaws are more on the conceptual level in that they're simply not compatible with a Sonic-based scheme of design - no matter where you look, they're flow-breaking as all hell, have a distinct tendency to inhibit his mobility outright, and are mostly combat-focused rather than level-focused. Now, I fucking love telekinesis in videogames, but I'll still be the first to admit that these are the last things you should be looking for in a Sonic character.

First of all, thank you for actually bothering to respond to my post.

The reason I suggested limiting Silver to one object was to promote simplicity. The idea was to eliminate the need for the energy meter, thus reducing what the player has to focus on and, by extension, simplify and streamline the gameplay a bit, as I have come to understand that Sonic games should be as simple and straightforward as possible. As for the issue of not being able to manipulate multiple objects, well, I honestly don't see that as much of a loss. If I may borrow and adapt your example, it was more like carrying spare ammo for your gravity gun than anything else. There was barely any sort of practical use for carrying multiple objects beyond just having spare objects to throw.

I don't really think they limited his mobility. His ability to use objects as controllable platforms actually sort of enhanced it. The only thing I can think of is the fact that his ability to carry objects and his levitation move were tied to the same energy meter, which would already be fixed by my suggestion to eliminate the meter outright. As for flow-breaking, well, it's worth pointing out that SIlver's levels didn't really flow in the first place, but aside from that, I think just giving him the ability to grab and throw while moving should do the trick. And anyway, I personally think it's ok to have a character that's inherently a little bit slower than other characters, as long as the difference isn't massive, like how Silver was in Sonic '06, or like Amy in Sonic Adventure.

To put Silver back in line with the rest of the cast, you really need to consider how to utilize his abilities constructively rather than destructively. Say, this Homing Attack reticule thing. Just scrap the fucking grab-throw mechanic entirely and use the HA cursor to pull grabbable objects directly underneath you as a temporary platform. Then jump off, grab another one and repeat, and there you have a rudimentary ascending staircase, or a platform that lasts long enough to get his ordinary levitation refreshed. Not only does that function as a servicable mobility technique, it even fits into the same "keep moving in midair" critera the Homing Attack does, and if you ever need it to double as an offensive move you could always induce the Klonoa effect and slam-dunk enemies into the ground automatically when you jump off them.

This makes sense, so I put some thought into it and came up with this. What could be done would be to have the crouch button be used as a way of holding Silver in place, which would in turn allow you to use the analog stick to control Silver's object directly. You could use that to place the object in a specific place, or to position it in a way that it can protect Silver from an obstacle, allowing him to pass by. And while I admit this is kind of a slow-paced idea, I'd like to point out that if Silver is crouching, he can immediately go into a spin dash once he's done.

How you'd go about the rest of his moveset is anyone's guess, really - I just wanted to put this out there because all too many people, especially the OP, really don't seem to understand the thought processes that should be going into a platforming character. If you're going in with the mindset of providing as many different ways to kill shit as possible as opposed to, y'know, making jumping and moving fun and smooth-flowing, then it essentially defeats the point of a platformer, no?

Give him all the basic moves that everyone in Sonic 3 & Knuckles shared, and have his PK be a really simple and easy to use play mechanic that makes for an interesting change of pace...so to speak.

[The Weeb with No Name]

Silver has untapped potential.

Mephiles is interesting..

Yes please.

[Blacklightning]

The reason I suggested limiting Silver to one object was to promote simplicity. The idea was to eliminate the need for the energy meter, thus reducing what the player has to focus on and, by extension, simplify and streamline the gameplay a bit, as I have come to understand that Sonic games should be as simple and straightforward as possible. As for the issue of not being able to manipulate multiple objects, well, I honestly don't see that as much of a loss. If I may borrow and adapt your example, it was more like carrying spare ammo for your gravity gun than anything else. There was barely any sort of practical use for carrying multiple objects beyond just having spare objects to throw.

Only because '06 was never designed to target more than one enemy at a time, nor did it account for objects bumping against each other and deflecting each other's shots. Not to mention if I remember correctly, you couldn't hit them more than once per throw anyway. The simple solution would be to either designate a target in the same general direction for each individual object, or to simply line your stock of throwables up perpendicular to yourself so you can hit things in a wider arc than normal.

Of course, this is only relative to '06, so I digress. If nothing else you could always use mutliple objects to form more distinct bridges and staircases of objects that otherwise would've required those fucking stupid context sensitive pads to set up.

I don't really think they limited his mobility. His ability to use objects as controllable platforms actually sort of enhanced it.

You can't move while throwing stuff. That seems pretty limiting in the mobility department to me. Even riding objects was only ever useful for gaining height, and was pretty delicate and time consuming at times for something that really had no reason not to be a part of his standalone levitation ability anyway.

And no, simply giving Silver the ability to throw shit while moving isn't exactly a solution either. If there's anything I've learned from ShTH, it's that you simply can't combine speed, projectile fighting and platformer controls and get anything good out of it, even when there is an auto-aiming system in use.

And anyway, I personally think it's ok to have a character that's inherently a little bit slower than other characters, as long as the difference isn't massive, like how Silver was in Sonic '06, or like Amy in Sonic Adventure.

When they have something to compensate, sure. But in Silver and Amy's case they were almost universally abilities that benefitted from combat alone, so in the case of a platformer it feels more like disadvantaging a character just for the pure sake of it. And that just makes no sense. Especially in the context of a game that expected these characters to be able to race each other in multiplayer, and in the context of a franchise where differences in usable abilities is more than enough to define any metagame.

This makes sense, so I put some thought into it and came up with this. What could be done would be to have the crouch button be used as a way of holding Silver in place, which would in turn allow you to use the analog stick to control Silver's object directly. You could use that to place the object in a specific place, or to position it in a way that it can protect Silver from an obstacle, allowing him to pass by. And while I admit this is kind of a slow-paced idea, I'd like to point out that if Silver is crouching, he can immediately go into a spin dash once he's done.

I really don't think Silver can benefit from manual control of any kind, at least not to the extent of preventing it from becoming a chore or a delay. Why bother taking the time to inch objects into place yourself when you can just shunt them directly beneath you with a single button press? Why bother painstakingly directing an object as a shield against "obstacles" (and by that I assume you mean some vauge kind of projectile) when you can just target the obstacle itself, again, with a single button press? Just seems like pointless over-complication if you ask me - not that anything of such is out of the ordinary for Silver, but's it's something he does need to break away from.

That said though, this talk of grabbing objects while crouching does make me wonder whether using objects as a spindash ramp on the ground could be worth it.

[StaticMania]

I think if they actually get his gameplay down and have his speed from the 2 sonic rivals games (because in sonic 06 he was so slow he wasn't even faster than Sonic's walking speed) I think he would be a fun playable character. But h should not com before Tails or Amy (or even knuckles) until they get them right no silver for you.

[A.T.]

If Silver were to have better abilities like locked on target system, smoother movement, more interesting powers, larger differences and better back story with twists then Silver deserves another shot for sure.

Solo game of Silver is debatable. Earlier I said he didn't but thinking about it he may ....just may last a solo game. Also if Silver were to be included SEGA needs to pull some interesting story to include Sonic and possibly Shadow. I think an interesting trio can be formed.......EXCLUDING 06 BECAUSE THAT WAS THE WORSE WAY TO DEVELOP A TRIO! But making a hedgehog team wouldn't be half bad I think...

[G-Force]

Only because '06 was never designed to target more than one enemy at a time, nor did it account for objects bumping against each other and deflecting each other's shots. Not to mention if I remember correctly, you couldn't hit them more than once per throw anyway. The simple solution would be to either designate a target in the same general direction for each individual object, or to simply line your stock of throwables up perpendicular to yourself so you can hit things in a wider arc than normal.

Of course, this is only relative to '06, so I digress. If nothing else you could always use mutliple objects to form more distinct bridges and staircases of objects that otherwise would've required those fucking stupid context sensitive pads to set up.

As far as combat applications go, I'd like to point out that I don't even think Sonic games should be locking you down and forcing you to fight groups of enemies in the first place. Any combat that takes place should happen while you're on the go, and it shouldn't automatically require Silver to use his PK. I suggested giving him all the basic Sonic-series attacks for that purpose.

As for the bridge/staircase building idea, I can't say I disagree with it, but my concern is that giving the player the ability to do something like that would make the controls too complex.Or, at least, more complex than things actually should be.

You can't move while throwing stuff. That seems pretty limiting in the mobility department to me. Even riding objects was only ever useful for gaining height, and was pretty delicate and time consuming at times for something that really had no reason not to be a part of his standalone levitation ability anyway.

And no, simply giving Silver the ability to throw shit while moving isn't exactly a solution either. If there's anything I've learned from ShTH, it's that you simply can't combine speed, projectile fighting and platformer controls and get anything good out of it, even when there is an auto-aiming system in use.

What you've done here is you've taken a situation where there are only two options, and you've decided that both of them are unacceptable. I don't think it would make sense for Silver to NOT be able to grab and throw objects, and since I didn't pay particular attention to it in Shadow, I'm willing to go with your judgement on the evils of shooting while running in a platformer. All together, that tells me that Silver has to stop when he throws an object, purely because that the lesser of two "evils." All I'd like to add is to suggest that there could be a system where Silver can either throw an object or just let go of it. Tap the button to let go, hold for a second and release to throw, you can let go while moving, but throwing makes you stop.

When they have something to compensate, sure. But in Silver and Amy's case they were almost universally abilities that benefitted from combat alone, so in the case of a platformer it feels more like disadvantaging a character just for the pure sake of it. And that just makes no sense. Especially in the context of a game that expected these characters to be able to race each other in multiplayer, and in the context of a franchise where differences in usable abilities is more than enough to define any metagame.

Wait wait wait, I'm not sure if what I meant to say actually got through in my words. The thing about SIlver in '06 and Amy in Adventure had gameplay styles that were slow as fuck, and therefore completely wrong. I was listing them as examples of how it shouldn't be, but I suspecct I phrased it wrong.

In my mind, the ideal would be to have a game that follows the same general philosophy as Sonic 3 & Knuckles, where every character followed the same basic gameplay concept and shared the basic skillset, but certain characters(Tails & Knuckles) had unique skills that allowed them to add variety to the standard, pure experience(Sonic's). In this case, I guess I'm imagining Silver with a bit of puzzle game quality, where he has to use his PK to problem solve his way through obstacles that other characters can't. I admit that, if it's built properly, it will be inherently slower-paced than the gameplay of other characters, but it should still have enough speed to satisfy, unlike in Sonic '06.

I really don't think Silver can benefit from manual control of any kind, at least not to the extent of preventing it from becoming a chore or a delay. Why bother taking the time to inch objects into place yourself when you can just shunt them directly beneath you with a single button press? Why bother painstakingly directing an object as a shield against "obstacles" (and by that I assume you mean some vauge kind of projectile) when you can just target the obstacle itself, again, with a single button press? Just seems like pointless over-complication if you ask me - not that anything of such is out of the ordinary for Silver, but's it's something he does need to break away from.

Honestly, if a Sonic game actually calls for you to "inch" an object into positon, then it's calling for far more precision than anyone would actually enjoy dealing with. I was talking general ideas like placing it to weigh something down, or to keep a switch pressed. Nothing fine or complex, just straightforward, "put the thing over there while standing over here," stuff.

And when I said obstacles, I was thinking more along the lines of "environmental hazards." Or, to speak more generally, "shit Silver can't fuck with directly." Stuff like jets of flame, or lasers, or lava, or maybe even just spikes. Use an object to block the flames/lasers as you move through a corridor, or place an object in the middle of a lava pool so you can cross it safely.

Lastly, about your "shunt things below yourself" idea, I'm going to be totally honest. I don't like the idea, but I don't actually have a specific reason as to why. Something about it just doesn't seem right to me, you know? But since I can't think of any reason for why it shouldn't be done, I'm gonna go ahead and say sure, why not?

That said though, this talk of grabbing objects while crouching does make me wonder whether using objects as a spindash ramp on the ground could be worth it.

See, I didn't even think of that. That's a really cool idea.

[FantasticMrRob]

Honestly, I loved Silver in Sonic 06, and I do agree by far that he should be selectable again. And adding some of his new powers from Sonic Gen would also be a great feature. Your story idea, however, isn't that great.

[ZER0]

I would hate to see ol' pothead the porcupine return to be quite honest. However, if he MUST return, give him nights gameplay. Have him fly around the different levels and stuff. That would be kind of cool.

[ELVIS]

I would hate to see ol' pothead the porcupine return to be quite honest.

We're talkin about a hedgehog with supernatural mind powers. Not a pointy mouse with drug problems.

Not the same thing dude.

Edited August 15, 2012 by Wolfy13

[SilJeff]

We're talkin about a hedgehog with supernatural mind powers. Not a pointy mouse with drug problems.

Not the same thing dude.

In the Brainscratchcomms LP of Sonic 06, that was their nickname for Silver. Not sure if they were the ones who made it up, or if they were reusing the nickname from elsewhere.