Should Silver be in the select screen again?

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

...

Alright, here's an idea.

People bitchfit and complain all day about Sonic being all "boost to win" and having no exploration.

So use Silver.

Silver is the icon of exploration and platforming. He can't go fast, he can use telekinesis and he can make high jumps.

I agree, SEGA SHOULD take Knuckles and Tails back in instead of Silver, though that's honestly not what I'd prefer. But I guess the fans are the boss.

But if we ever had a GOOD GAME with Silver playable in it (Seriously. '06 and Rivals are fucking horrible and the Olympic Games don't count.), I'd be happy.

Seriously guys, you're bashing Silver, but the poor guy never got into a GOOD GAME.

I wouldn't mind a "Silver The Hedgehog" spinoff, by the way.

I know I'm kind of late with this. But I was asleep.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Hazama

[timmyboyblue]

for those who say shadow should come back i feel his story is done, i wanna see more silver, maybe even a full silver game come out

[Marcello]

Topic wise. No. Why make him playable if characters like Shadow and knuckles aren't? That's stupid. If he is anyway playable again, sega better let Knux or Shadow join in too.

What kind of argument is this? Why would it be stupid to make one character playable before others?

Mind yuo, both Shadow & Knuckles wereplayable in Black Knight.

Edited August 9, 2012 by MarcelloF

[Wittymations]

I wouldn't mind it. All characters can be playable and fun.

But keep in mind, and I've come to accept this, that it's a Sonic game. A Sonic game is supposed to be high speed. It has been that way since the first game, and is that way to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. It was mostly that way in the Adventures.

Other characters need to share the same thing -- speed. Every playable characters needs to be fast. Do they need to be as fast as Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic or Eggman? No. They need to be noticably slower than them, but still fast. Sonic's speed needs to be a huge advantage over his speedy homies, though.

Why? Well, one problem I had was S3&K was that when playing Knuckles, you were at a huge advantage. You could run nearly as fast as Sonic, Spindash, AND glide. Tails could do all that, but climb and fly instead of glide. Those two were basically superior to Sonic. Not good.

Sure, there needs to be other techniques when playing as Knuckles. Climb, dig, box, and swim, but Sonic's speed needs to be a huge factor. He should be able to run across water, and spidash/boost, where Knuckles cannot.

Get it?

(God I wish I was as mature as you when I was your age. xD)

I wish a lot of older people were that mature now.

for those who say shadow should come back i feel his story is done

That's when a new story is created. Using this argument is a bit silly. A series is a series. You could say Sonic story was done after the first game. Knuckles was done after Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Tails was arguably done after Sonic 2, but even more in Sonic Adventure. Same with Amy. All these characters should remain sheleved? Only because they had some personal conflicts amended? They can't come into new conflict?

Edited August 9, 2012 by WIttyUsername

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

Other characters need to share the same thing -- speed. Every playable characters needs to be fast. Do they need to be as fast as Sonic, Shadow, or Metal Sonic or Eggman? No. They need to be noticably slower than them, but still fast. Sonic's speed needs to be a huge advantage over his speedy homies, though.

I guess that characters like Tails and Knuckles have already proven themselves to be fast, but not every character should be fast. There wouldn't be any reason to play as Sonic, and I don't think the game should make up a gimmick for him to use. (Not to mention people already complained about that. Black Knight, anyone?)

This is the exact reason why the Sonic series gets so much shit for being "Boost To Win".

You can't make extremely fast gameplay and exploration work togheter.

It just...

Doesn't work.

This is why we need Sonic to keep his "Boost To Win" reflex attitude, and have other characters, like Tails, Knuckles or SILVER be slow, exploration based and based around platforming.

That's when a new story is created. Using this argument is a bit silly. A series is a series. You could say Sonic story was done after the first game. Knuckles was done after Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Tails was arguably done after Sonic 2, but even more in Sonic Adventure. Same with Amy. All these characters should remain sheleved? Only because they had some personal conflicts amended? They can't come into new conflict?

Because Shadow's story was backstory. We're so darn used to his backstory by now, that a new story wouldn't fit him at all.

What kind of argument is this? Why would it be stupid to make one character playable before others?

Mind you, both Shadow & Knuckles were playable in Black Knight.

So were Blaze, Silver, Jet and Arthur.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Hazama

[Wittymations]

Because Shadow's story was backstory. We're so darn used to his backstory by now, that a new story wouldn't fit him at all.

Then he needs to move on. After all, Shadow has said he put his past behind him. He's not going to dwell on his past forever.

I guess that characters like Tails and Knuckles have already proven themselves to be fast, but not every character should be fast.

As much as I would personally agree with this -- I notice the main argument over other players and the adeventures is "I came to play a SONIC game! SONIC GAMES ARE FAST! NOT SLOW!"

They all need to share the core thing. Speed.

Edited August 9, 2012 by WIttyUsername

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

Then he needs to move on. After all, Shadow has said he put his past behind him. He's not going to dwell on his past forever.

Very true, I'm not saying he shouldn't, but the idea of Shadow having a new story is... How shall I put it...

So new it's frightening.

[Wittymations]

Very true, I'm not saying he shouldn't, but the idea of Shadow having a new story is... How shall I put it...

So new it's frightening.

SEGA likes to take risks, I notice. The thing is, I believe the best way to ween him is Shadow to share a story with Sonic. Only Sonic and Shadow game.

Shadow would be best to play the opposite of Sonic, but with similarites. They share traits, but have different attitudes on them. Shadow fighting Eggman story is no problem -- provided he has a reason to.

I think a lot of people's fear is butchering Shadow. That's understandable. But he's already kinda been butchered. Why not try to fix him with light things?

He doesn't need to go around blasting aliens and shooting guns. Just him, Sonic, and Eggman would be a decent start. Make Shadow noticably more serious than Sonic, but give him some comedic situations. Shadow would be serious in them, but it's pretty funny to look at.

And him doing goofy things wouldn't subtract from his badassery. Vegeta has been in plenty of funny situations, but people still loved him.

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

SEGA likes to take risks, I notice. The thing is, I believe the best way to ween him is Shadow to share a story with Sonic. Only Sonic and Shadow game.

Shadow would be best to play the opposite of Sonic, but with similarites. They share traits, but have different attitudes on them. Shadow fighting Eggman story is no problem -- provided he has a reason to.

I think a lot of people's fear is butchering Shadow. That's understandable. But he's already kinda been butchered. Why not try to fix him with light things?

He doesn't need to go around blasting aliens and shooting guns. Just him, Sonic, and Eggman would be a decent start. Make Shadow noticably more serious than Sonic, but give him some comedic situations. Shadow would be serious in them, but it's pretty funny to look at.

And him doing goofy things wouldn't subtract from his badassery. Vegeta has been in plenty of funny situations, but people still loved him.

I think Shadow fits just fine in some comedic situations, Archie being a good example of that sometimes.

However...

I don't think the fanbase would appreciate it if it was just Sonic, Shadow and Eggman...

Especially not the classic-lovers.

As for Silver, I think he fits as a great neutral character, or a lawful character. Not Chaotic like Shadow, but not all Justice like Sonic either.

[Wittymations]

I don't think the fanbase would appreciate it if it was just Sonic, Shadow and Eggman...

I was just talking one game. I believe SEGA should slowly ween the characters back in.

One game with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman

One game with Sonic, Shadow, Eggman (maybe Tails and Rouge as supporting cast)

One game with Sonic, The Chaotix, Eggman (would be interesting to see the Chaotix and Sonic interact)

Etc.

Especially not the classic-lovers.

Personally, I'm tiring of the forced classic fan feeding. SEGA has other sides of the fanbase too.

Edited August 9, 2012 by WIttyUsername

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

I was just talking one game. I believe SEGA should slowly ween the characters back in.

One game with Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman

One game with Sonic, Shadow, Eggman (maybe Tails and Rouge as supporting cast)

One game with Sonic, The Chaotix, Eggman (would be interesting to see the Chaotix and Sonic interact)

Etc.

"One game" is still pretty big, especially for a main title. Maybe for a spinoff? Even though I think the Chaotix are going to be slowly lost to time.

Personally, I'm tiring of the forced classic fan feeding. SEGA has other sides of the fanbase too.

Oh trust me,

I don't like the classics at all. I can't play one for more then 20 minutes before getting bored.

But apparantly, there are people on the internet who are way too big of a fan of the classics, and are going to defend it till' the end.

[Hamzawesome]

Guys, silver was last playable in sonic rivals 2 not sonic '06. And why not silver owns enemies in sonic 06, just make him alot faster and fix the physics and you got yourself silver as playable character.

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

Guys, silver was last playable in sonic rivals 2 not sonic '06. And why not silver owns enemies in sonic 06, just make him alot faster and fix the physics and you got yourself silver as playable character.

Sonic Rivals 1 and 2 were trainwrecks.

And as I said multiple times...

Silver isn't ment to be fast, he's supposed to be a platforming character.

[Wittymations]

"One game" is still pretty big, especially for a main title. Maybe for a spinoff?

Iffy. But I think they need to grab their balls and try it. Spinoffs can turn into main titles. look at Sonic and the Secret Rings.

Even though I think the Chaotix are going to be slowly lost to time.

Sad possible truth. But given their appearance in Generation, there's a chance they'll stay. Would like to test the water with their own series. Nintendo was able to do it with Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi. Why not?

But apparantly, there are people on the internet who are way too big of a fan of the classics, and are going to defend it till' the end.

Ever seen some Adventure fans? They can be just as bad. But they're mainly fan artists and writers.

[Blacklightning]

That just leaves Silver's actual bread and butter, the psychokinesis, which can pretty well be compacted into the attack button. Start by adapting Sonic's homing attack targeting cursor to indicate what his PK will affect. Scrap the useless push move, and make the other abilities context sensitive. Use on crates or rocks to lift them and throw them, perhaps with the limitation of only being able to lift one object at a time, just so you don't have to worry about the meter. Stand on a liftable object to use it as a controllable platform, use it on bars to bend them out of the way. And of course you could use it to trigger the effects of those fancy patterns.

I make no secret of the fact that I'd really prefer other characters have abilities that re-use Sonic's HA cursor, but in Silver's case it feels like it might seem a bit limiting, at least in comparison to his '06 moveset. Key among them is that it makes a decent means to manipulate multiple objects at a time essentially impossible, which reduces Silver to little more than a walking Gravity Gun ripoff for the most part. Ultimately though, Silver's flaws are more on the conceptual level in that they're simply not compatible with a Sonic-based scheme of design - no matter where you look, they're flow-breaking as all hell, have a distinct tendency to inhibit his mobility outright, and are mostly combat-focused rather than level-focused. Now, I fucking love telekinesis in videogames, but I'll still be the first to admit that these are the last things you should be looking for in a Sonic character.

To put Silver back in line with the rest of the cast, you really need to consider how to utilize his abilities constructively rather than destructively. Say, this Homing Attack reticule thing. Just scrap the fucking grab-throw mechanic entirely and use the HA cursor to pull grabbable objects directly underneath you as a temporary platform. Then jump off, grab another one and repeat, and there you have a rudimentary ascending staircase, or a platform that lasts long enough to get his ordinary levitation refreshed. Not only does that function as a servicable mobility technique, it even fits into the same "keep moving in midair" critera the Homing Attack does, and if you ever need it to double as an offensive move you could always induce the Klonoa effect and slam-dunk enemies into the ground automatically when you jump off them.

How you'd go about the rest of his moveset is anyone's guess, really - I just wanted to put this out there because all too many people, especially the OP, really don't seem to understand the thought processes that should be going into a platforming character. If you're going in with the mindset of providing as many different ways to kill shit as possible as opposed to, y'know, making jumping and moving fun and smooth-flowing, then it essentially defeats the point of a platformer, no?

Alright, here's an idea.

People bitchfit and complain all day about Sonic being all "boost to win" and having no exploration.

So use Silver.

Silver is the icon of exploration and platforming. He can't go fast, he can use telekinesis and he can make high jumps.

No. that's just being a cheap cop-out and taking the lazy man's way out. You don't just segregate different aspects of gameplay like that simply because you can't be fucked to make speed and platforming coexist - if anything, that exact mentality of completely dividing aspects of gameplay between individual characters is what led us up to '06 in the first place.

How exactly you go about that is a matter for another topic, though. (seriously we have at least three fucking Boost topics out there already, probably more)

[Diogenes]

I guess that characters like Tails and Knuckles have already proven themselves to be fast, but not every character should be fast. There wouldn't be any reason to play as Sonic,

Because literally the only thing Sonic does is go fast. Well okay that's all he's good for now, but I'm talking about in a game that's actually worth playing.

This is why we need Sonic to keep his "Boost To Win" reflex attitude, and have other characters, like Tails, Knuckles or SILVER be slow, exploration based and based around platforming.

No, this is why we need to ditch the boost gameplay and give Sonic fast-paced but more open gameplay. Splitting the game between super-fast action and slower, platforming-heavy gameplay did not work in Unleashed, it's not going to work now; it's just giving you two kinds of gameplay that aren't worth playing, instead of actually making a good Sonic game.

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

No, this is why we need to ditch the boost gameplay and give Sonic fast-paced but more open gameplay. Splitting the game between super-fast action and slower, platforming-heavy gameplay did not work in Unleashed, it's not going to work now; it's just giving you two kinds of gameplay that aren't worth playing, instead of actually making a good Sonic game.

So you're referring the the Adventure series style of gameplay, then?

[Diogenes]

The Adventures aren't much better at this than Unleashed was. They hadn't driven Sonic's gameplay straight into the ground by this point (though they were sending it into a gentle nosedive), but they still padded out the game with gameplay no one asked for.

What I think they should be doing is bringing the classic gameplay into 3D, and designing levels that aren't hallways or tightropes. Drop the average speed to a more reasonable level and actually give the player space to move around in.

Buuuut if we're going to continue this much further we should probably find a more appropriate topic, since we're way off the subject of Silver by now...

[Ruby CUL Terumi]

The Adventures aren't much better at this than Unleashed was. They hadn't driven Sonic's gameplay straight into the ground by this point (though they were sending it into a gentle nosedive), but they still padded out the game with gameplay no one asked for.

What I think they should be doing is bringing the classic gameplay into 3D, and designing levels that aren't hallways or tightropes. Drop the average speed to a more reasonable level and actually give the player space to move around in.

Each an opinion I guess.

But yes, let's continue about Silver.

[Solkia]

I liked Silver's gameplay in 06. Guess I must be a terrible person.

I wonder, would people still bash Silver's gameplay without 06 to back up their disgust with him?

(Yes I'm aware that most people's hate for him has nothing to do with his gameplay)

[Soniman]

Are you the real Solkia?

[Diogenes]

I wonder, would people still bash Silver's gameplay without 06 to back up their disgust with him?

It's still slow, combat-based, and not even good combat. Even if it wasn't attached to the rest of '06 it's still no good.

[Solkia]

Sooooo, in other words the execution of the gameplay would always reflect that of 06. I said without 06 to back it up.

Like any gameplay style, it can be fixed with a bit of tweaking. Yeah, it had it's pacing issues, like everything else in that game. But unlike everything else in that game, it didn't have predecessors to prove the gameplay can work.

EDIT: Take "any" with a grain of salt. Fuck treasure hunting and mechshooting.

Edited August 9, 2012 by Solkia-kun

[Diogenes]

Well I can't exactly judge a gameplay style that doesn't actually exist, not even as a description

If it's going to play anything like '06, I'm going to say, it's still bad. If not, explain, and then I can judge.

[Solkia]

Ah, my bad.

-Silver is slow as molasses in 06. this can be fixed by using his psychic powers to levitate in the same why Super Sonic does in Generations. He wouldn't be invincible though, that would be silly.

-You don't have to come to a dead stop to use your psychic powers. You can move and throw objects at the same time.

Those are the main things that come to mind.