Would you miss the Boost?

[NGw00d]

I would have to go with no. I do have fun with the boost, but I much prefer to work to build up some speed. Whats more satisfying? Using your skills to have Sonic go as fast as he can, and trying keep that speed, or tapping a button? I'm sure most would go with the first option. I do wanna echo what Dark Energon Johnny said about having the boost as a Super Sonic exclusive skill, as long as its not like Generation's Super Sonic boost. I'd have it more akin to Sonic's normal boost. I like to actually play the stage, not have it played for me.

[Scar]

Yes there is some momentum in Mario games, but not that much. It's not crucial, and probably just a fraction of the gameplay. Mario games are not momentum based. Momentum may be a fraction of the gameplay, but that doesn't make Mario games momentum based, whereas Sonic games used to be completely momentum based.

How you can even compare momentum in Sonic games to Mario games, I'll never understand.

[Vertekins]

Yes.

But it'd be awesome if it was replaced by the Crest of Wind. Now that is how you'd sort the wheat from the chaff because it's hard to use but awesome and is what momentum and earning your speed is all about when it comes to speed moves like these. Just nerf it's rate of acceleration from what it was in SatSR and then there you go.

[Diogenes]

And what exactly does "momentum based" even mean?

[Nepenthe]

To me, this is like saying, since Mario is such a great jumper, you should be able to make super high jumps all the time. Or, if I play as the Sniper in TF2, I shouldn't need to worry about aiming myself, since I'm the Sniper, obviously I'm a pro. The game gives you the character's tools, but it's up to you to actually use them.

[Phos]

I love the boost and I'd definetly miss it.

Sonic is the fastest thing alive, of course he's based on speed.

But if they ever replace it with the Spindash, it fucking better be Sonic Adventure's.

Might as well leave the boost if you're going to do that, at least then it'd be easy to understand how to use. I imagine you're looking for more hall runners so you might as well not be forced to jam on the spindash button.

Actually, in 3D? Yes, you do. The Spindash needs charge up time and goes slower then the boost overall.

That's quite a leap to that conclusion. You dang kids, in my day we went fast without your newfangled boost.

that one bit in Sonic Advance 2 that I was totally able to find a picture of goes here

Man it's from the first level get it yourself

Oh well, then you would have to play Advance 2 and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. So I went to youtube and found this pretty easily:

Wow this game's physics are easy to exploit:

[Jetronic]

that one bit in Sonic Advance 2 that I was totally able to find a picture of goes here

Bolded "extended", you can only go in 2 directions in Sonic 3&k and not for as long as wanted :/

[Diogenes]

And I argue that Sonic's speed should be a tool to use instead of a reward, in the same way that players aren't pressed to earn Mario's jumping ability or the Sniper's gun for adequate performance in other areas.

A reward can be a tool. It's a more long-term example, but take Megaman; you beat a level, you earn a new weapon, you use the weapon. I don't think speed is any less a tool in the classics than it is in modern games.

Regardless, most of the enemies I named are not present in areas where you're obliged to boost for long periods of time. And you while you can use boost outside of areas where it's called for as an attack, this is made risky by all of these projectile-throwing enemies.

Well yeah, that's the thing. In areas where you can freely boost (which are many), very few enemies pose any sort of threat. The only time they're of any real concern is when boosting isn't an option (though the homing attack still deals with most of them with little difficulty).

And using the boost outside of boost-approved areas is risky more for the tightrope-like level design than whatever enemies populate it.

Bolded "extended", you can only go in 2 directions in Sonic 3&k and not for as long as wanted :/

I don't think running on water slows Sonic down in the 2D games. It's only the modern games that make it like molasses if you're not boosting, so you have no choice but to boost. If we got a 3D game that played like the Genesis games, and if you didn't lose too much speed in turning, you could probably run on water indefinitely given a big enough pool. Edited July 11, 2012 by Diogenes

[Kuzu]

And the entire point of Spin Dashing is to also shoot yourself forward and to gain a defensive advantage, which is the same function as the boost. I recognize the differences between the two moves and their respective level design, but I really don't understand why this portion right here is in contention.

I'm saying why should it matter if the latter is gone, if the former already covers it's purpose.

I would rather a Sonic who is both very fast and capable of hitting his speed cap by mere ability rather than the oft-toted alternative of environment and gravitational forces doing the work for me. Why? Because he is inherently a supersonic character, having been toted not only through marketing but within the games' various mechanics, balancing measures, and cutscenes, and as such I don't believe I should be expected to "earn" what is logically his basest ability anymore.

But why do you act like Sonic isn't fast at all unless he's either boosting or rolling? Like you said, he's naturally a fast character, whether spin dashing or not, and the additional moves only to capitalize on that. I have no problem with the boost itself, but rather how much it's dominated the current style of gameplay to the point where it leaves out almost any variety or innovation.

I even said I would happily give up the boost if Sega proposed better game designs that achieved this specification. But until then, popular argument dictates that I really only have two choices: classic style of relying on slopes and hills to achieve the highest speeds or modern style of just simply pressing a button to achieve the highest speeds. Modern style fits my ideals better so I choose that one.

But you're not acknowledging the inherent flaw in such a design; If Sonic's speed comes from simply the press of a button, then what's the point of even designing decent level design? If you have a run button, naturally you're going to need straight pathways to run fast otherwise what's the point of said run button. That said, straight pathways a good platform game does not make, it sounds like a decent racing game, but not for a platform game like Sonic is meant to be.

Sonic has always been primarily known for this; look past the hardcore gaming elective on the Internet and ask the general populous what they think of when they think of Sonic. I'd put money down on "speed" being much higher on the list than "deep rolling mechanics."

That's like saying Fighting games are nothing more than mashing buttons, sure that's the gist of it but it's what you do with those buttons is what matters, otherwise you may as well give every character a punch and kick button and leave it at that. That's nothing more than a generalization and you know it, and just because it is a generalization shouldn't mean the series can't at least try to come up with creative level design beyond "Go Fast".

I feel opponents keep painting this extreme image that every level is just a perfectly straight line from beginning to end with nothing to slow or stop you in between, and the only enemies in the games are the blue Egg Fighters that you can boost through

Most of the time, it kind of is.

Aero Chasers, Aero Cannons, Interceptors, Electric Spinners, Egg Blizzards and Egg Flames, Egg Fighter Knights, and Egg Fighter Shooters from Unleashed alone can actually harm Sonic while he is mid-boost. If there is a player here that has not taken damage from an enemy in any modern game ever, I'd call them either a liar or someone who has not played the games. And while I just disparaged the blue Egg Fighters, I remembered even they drop electric wires that can damage you as well. But in general, I find the enemies of most Sonic games to not actually be significant threats anyway. They're either too slow, too open, telegraph their attacks too well, or some combination of.

I'm not saying they don't, what I'm saying is that boosting renders having enemies completely moot; like Dio said, every other enemy may as well not be there at all, you either run past them or blow through them. And even if previous enemies aren't major threats, they at least had a chance of catching you off guard and slowing you down, in Unleashed they're glorified bowling pins.

I don't find time attacking boring either; I flock to it in games where the level design and my characters' abilities are specifically laid out for me in order to do a time attack and go forward with little inhibition or reason to stop. There is inherent satisfaction in not only attaining top speed, but in keeping it and destroying every obstacle laid out for you.

Well that's all well and good for you, but what about the folks that want something else from their experience? Do they matter at all? What if I'm not a speed runner, and I prefer to slow down and utilize my abilities and see what secrets I can find with them, how can I do that with a gameplay style that actively prevents any exploration? Nobody is saying speed running is bad, but when it's the only thing to do then it gets boring after a while. It's like a roller coaster, it's fun the first few times but after a while the adrenaline rush is gone.

Again, if you can propose a game design that will allow Sonic to attain high speeds of his own ability, I frankly don't care whether or not the level design is linear or open-world. However, if I have the black and white choice usually presented in these arguments, I'm perfectly fine playing more modern games.

But why does Sonic need such an ability? Why does it matter if Sonic goes faster by himself? He's always been fast, nothing is going to change that, and I don't understand how not having an instant speed button is such a problem with the games. If it's personal preference, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Otherwise I don't see the need for such a power up when it's never been an inherent problem with his games.

[Nepenthe]

A reward can be a tool. It's a more long-term example, but take Megaman; you beat a level, you earn a new weapon, you use the weapon. I don't think speed is any less a tool in the classics than it is in modern games.

The example is both long-term and still not entirely analogous. I'm assuming once you get the gun, it is yours forever to use to your heart's content regardless of how you continue to perform in subsequent levels. Its availability does not fluctuate based on performance. Sonic's top speed in the classics is not earned once and then free to use as a permanent tool; you're still reliant on context-sensitive areas, namely large drops or a series of loops, to be able to use it and get a rush, because it's far more reward than tool. Even the most pertinent tool in the game- rolling- doesn't need a particularly high speed to be able to be used and be just as deadly anyway.

Well yeah, that's the thing. In areas where you can freely boost (which are many), very few enemies pose any sort of threat. The only time they're of any real concern is when boosting isn't an option (though the homing attack still deals with most of them with little difficulty).

And using the boost outside of boost-approved areas is risky more for the tightrope-like level design than whatever enemies populate it.

Most of the time the game prompts you to stop boosting, you're either in some chamber area or presented with wide paths where it's difficult to fall off, even if you boost. Pits usually abound in the later areas but we're not really talking Sonic Heroes tightropes here. I've boosted/air boosted in plenty of slow areas that were stocked with enough ground to cover me, and it's these areas where most of the enemies tend to appear.

I also think you're missing the elephant in the room: most Sonic baddies aren't all that threatening, and they also tend to take greater refuge in areas where the player is prompted to slow down lest they be called cheap. The modern games aren't really doing anything out of the ordinary in that regard.

[Diogenes]

I'm assuming once you get the gun, it is yours forever to use to your heart's content regardless of how you continue to perform in subsequent levels. Its availability does not fluctuate based on performance.

It does if you run out of ammo.

Sonic's top speed in the classics is not earned once and then free to use as a permanent tool; you're still reliant on context-sensitive areas, namely large drops or a series of loops, to be able to use it and get a rush, because it's far more reward than tool.

Opportunities to gain speed should be very common. The spindash is also an option if there isn't the room/level design to build speed by rolling.

Most of the time the game prompts you to stop boosting, you're either in some chamber area or presented with wide paths where it's difficult to fall off, even if you boost.

I'm really not sure I agree with this.

Pits usually abound in the later areas

Which is when enemies more dangerous than basic Fighters show up...

I also think you're missing the elephant in the room: most Sonic baddies aren't all that threatening,

The boost being so overpowered only makes this worse, tho'.

[Nepenthe]

I'm saying why should it matter if the latter is gone, if the former already covers it's purpose.

Because both have objective differences in their utilization that makes people prefer one over the other.

But why do you act like Sonic isn't fast at all unless he's either boosting or rolling? Like you said, he's naturally a fast character, whether spin dashing or not, and the additional moves only to capitalize on that. I have no problem with the boost itself, but rather how much it's dominated the current style of gameplay to the point where it leaves out almost any variety or innovation.

I'm not acting like that, and I even took the time to state plainly in a list that I don't feel Sonic would be uncharacteristically slow without the boost. So why do you keep setting up this strawman? Are you even listening to anything I have to say?

But you're not acknowledging the inherent flaw in such a design; If Sonic's speed comes from simply the press of a button, then what's the point of even designing decent level design? If you have a run button, naturally you're going to need straight pathways to run fast otherwise what's the point of said run button. That said, straight pathways a good platform game does not make, it sounds like a decent racing game, but not for a platform game like Sonic is meant to be.

Rayman Origins has a run button and its level design is brilliant. These ideas that relegating a speed increase to a button means there's no point in having decent level design, that every single level in a modern game is nothing but Windmill Ilse Act 2, or that there is nothing in the modern games to qualify as platforming, are so inherently ridiculous to the point that I don't feel like entertaining them anymore than I do the aforementioned strawman.

That's like saying Fighting games are nothing more than mashing buttons, sure that's the gist of it but it's what you do with those buttons is what matters, otherwise you may as well give every character a punch and kick button and leave it at that. That's nothing more than a generalization and you know it, and just because it is a generalization shouldn't mean the series can't at least try to come up with creative level design beyond "Go Fast".

I didn't present it as anything other than a generalization. I said it plainly that the layman thinks of speed before anything else when they think of Sonic. That isn't a generalization so much as it is actual truth. It's also a rather insignificant point and I don't know why people are singling it out. I only said that in response to what I felt was an obvious question. "Is Sonic only known for going fast?" The answer is pretty much yes.

Most of the time, it kind of is.

All of the time, this sentiment is bullshit.

I'm not saying they don't, what I'm saying is that boosting renders having enemies completely moot; like Dio said, every other enemy may as well not be there at all, you either run past them or blow through them. And even if previous enemies aren't major threats, they at least had a chance of catching you off guard and slowing you down, in Unleashed they're glorified bowling pins.

Your first sentence seems inherently contradictory, so I'm kind of confused.

Regardless, the only enemies you ever really mow over are two brands of Egg Fighters- two enemies out of the many I listed from one game alone. Besides, when boosting, you will probably come across Aero Chasers and Interceptors, which are capable of dealing damage and are simultaneously immortal. These will slow you down whilst boosting. When you are prompted to slow down, you come across a wider variety of enemies which can be taken down by the boost, but only through proper utilization and timing; you cannot boost through bullets.

Also, usually when a classic enemy "caught you off guard," it was either cheaply-implemented or cheaply-placed. I really don't miss Grounders popping out of the ground or those stupid little mice in Flying Battery's faster sections.

Well that's all well and good for you, but what about the folks that want something else from their experience? Do they matter at all? What if I'm not a speed runner, and I prefer to slow down and utilize my abilities and see what secrets I can find with them, how can I do that with a gameplay style that actively prevents any exploration?

Why should I take into account what others want when I am arguing for merely the validity of my own preferences in a topic asking me about my preferences, especially when most others aren't doing the same for me when they say they want the boost gone?

Nobody is saying speed running is bad, but when it's the only thing to do then it gets boring after a while. It's like a roller coaster, it's fun the first few times but after a while the adrenaline rush is gone.

Again, this is purely subjective and I disagree with it. Most of my favorite platformers are fairly linear and have a primary focus on speed-running, and only have so much exploration to offer. I am seriously more likely to pop in Sonic Unleashed than I am Sonic 3 nowadays, and I love the shit out of Sonic 3.

But why does Sonic need such an ability? Why does it matter if Sonic goes faster by himself? He's always been fast, nothing is going to change that, and I don't understand how not having an instant speed button is such a problem with the games. If it's personal preference, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Otherwise I don't see the need for such a power up when it's never been an inherent problem with his games.

It matters because that's the character Sega puts across and it's the character I ultimately want to play as. The Sonic CD and Unleashed openings? They're awesome. So I want to be able to do that myself. Currently, my best bet- the closest thing to that- is with the modern games' design, so I advocate for the design's continued existence when people argue it should be replaced with something I feel is farther away from that ideal. Again, I am not opposed to any ideas that would make this achievable without the boost, but at the same time I won't sacrifice my idea and my enjoyment based on appeals to tradition. If the boost is honestly the only way this can be done, then unfortunately for everyone who despises the boost I'm not changing my opinion about it.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Nepenthe

[lounge]

The boost needs to die. Being able to suck up rings, blast thru enemies, boosting on freakin rails which doesn't even make sense, and blast thru the entire level overpowering everything is just too much. There's no challenge and kills any skills that past games allowed. I mean you can even boost in places that don't physically make sense.

At least in FZero GX you couldn't spam the boost and you had to think when to carefully use it. And it wouldn't autopilot you. You'd crash into walls easily if you weren't careful.

[Soniman]

The boost needs to die. Being able to suck up rings, blast thru enemies, boosting on freakin rails which doesn't even make sense, and blast thru the entire level overpowering everything is just too much. There's no challenge and kills any skills that past games allowed. I mean you can even boost in places that don't physically make sense.

At least in FZero GX you couldn't spam the boost and you had to think when to carefully use it. And it wouldn't autopilot you. You'd crash into walls easily if you weren't careful.

I'm pretty sure ignorant use of the boost yeilds the same results as it would In F-Zero

[Tornado]

The boost needs to die. Being able to suck up rings, blast thru enemies, boosting on freakin rails which doesn't even make sense, and blast thru the entire level overpowering everything is just too much. There's no challenge and kills any skills that past games allowed. I mean you can even boost in places that don't physically make sense.

At least in FZero GX you couldn't spam the boost and you had to think when to carefully use it. And it wouldn't autopilot you. You'd crash into walls easily if you weren't careful.

Boost2Win isn't really true, Unleashed's early levels notwithstanding. If you play like an idiot with it, you'll get just as screwed over as if you play like an idiot with homing attack or spin dash.

[Phos]

Speed as a tool, a game with a mechanic about use of speed...

Well really pretty much every game that has movement & collision falls under this, so it ends up a quantitative question, how fast? There are a lot of figurative nobs to twist there. I could actually liken the boost to a different tool frequently seen in video games, the super move, or the super form. For the sake of this example, they're basically the same. Both of them are a very strong option of which having unlimited access to breaks the game. Ryu's Hadoken isn't overpowered, but the Shinku Hadoken comes out faster and does a major chunk of damage. The boost is on a meter but is for all practical purposes unlimited in both Generations and Unleashed, you can technically run out but it's very rare and seldom seen to do so.

But really why am I arguing this? The boost and the levels that bore me so much go hand in hand, the latter only makes sense with the former and vice versa.

[Danielius]

I wouldn't miss the boost.

But this lead to another problem.

Options: they can leave the boost and make it more limited with more complex level designs. Now it feels sometimes that I'm playing a racing game. Instead of cars there are a bunch of exploding enemies. It feels like hitting an empty cans on the street.

The main problem now is not the gameplay or even boost but the lack of challenge and complex level design. It's too easy. I'm a bad game player and, heck, at first I needed 10x to try how to beat Shadow in Generations (as I still haven't played The Sonic Dreamcast era games) but since I finally learned how, it was super easy and now I can do it in less than 2 min. The idea was really good but the difficulty was VERY EASY. The same goes to the levels. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and it's really fun to play it and it is close to become perfect if Sonic Team would consider this.

I still used to have fun boosting through Generations game but I can't decide whether I liked more classic sonic or modern sonic more in that game

I would actually love to have a Sonic game without Spin Dash AND Boost. Just as the first one.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Danielius

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

At least in FZero GX you couldn't spam the boost and you had to think when to carefully use it. And it wouldn't autopilot you. You'd crash into walls easily if you weren't careful.

[Amomynous]

maybe, but it would probably work better with a good spindash/peelout mechanic, like something that sets you off at top speed and carries on the momentum without holding a button down, slowing down by easing up on the analogue stick ( and physics-induced momentum).

it's making it work well in 3d though, spindash was good for getting around in SA and Sa2 (though you had to stop dead still to activate it in SA2, and it took too long to uncurl, breaking up the flow)

Edited July 11, 2012 by Mysterics

[Diogenes]

I dare you to do nothing but spam the boost in Jungle Joyride, or Empire City, or heck even Dragon Road and see how far autopilot will take you.

Considering the game guides you around the turns in the first area, probably pretty far...

[Scar]

HUGE debate happened while I was asleep it seems......

I propose a system whereby Sonic, on flat ground can and will accelerate given enough time to extremely high speeds, bordering Boost speed, before reaching a speed cap. Just make it so that Sonic has a fixed acceleration and is affected quite a lot by slopes. Going downhill increases acceleration, going uphill decreases acceleration (unless its ridiculously steep, where it stops Sonic altogether)

Make sure the acceleration is relatively high enough so you reach a satisfying speed fairly quickly, but no so high, that trying to make slow-ish manouvres is impossible without sliding around. The acceleration drops as Sonic approaches his speed cap, which itself, should be very high.

Then scale up the environment, so that its physically large enough to accomodate Sonic moving very quickly.

Maybe slide the boost in as a powerup.

[Kuzu]

I don't care what they do as long I can get levels that aren't just narrow pathways.

[Faseeh]

I'd like the boost to stay but nerf it to somewhere in between what Dude did for his SA Generations mod and Generations. I think if we get levels like at least Chemical Plant (as much as it was boost heavy, it had so many alternative paths and exploration to be done), it wouldn't be a big problem. I really would miss the boost though.

[Sparky]

I want them to keep the boost, Even if they decide to put the Spin Dash in. I'd rather they have both then take the boost out.

Sonic is stated to be the Fastest thing alive and Speed is his natural ability, so in a white void he should be able to hit top speed without the use of the environment. The environment should just quicken the ability to move at high speeds, instead of being the only way.

I think the boost fits Sonic because of the Sonic CD openings, the numerous speed and action scenes in Sonic X, and the Sonic Unleashed opening, among other things.

[Chaos Warp]

HUGE debate happened while I was asleep it seems......

I propose a system whereby Sonic, on flat ground can and will accelerate given enough time to extremely high speeds, bordering Boost speed, before reaching a speed cap. Just make it so that Sonic has a fixed acceleration and is affected quite a lot by slopes. Going downhill increases acceleration, going uphill decreases acceleration (unless its ridiculously steep, where it stops Sonic altogether)

Make sure the acceleration is relatively high enough so you reach a satisfying speed fairly quickly, but no so high, that trying to make slow-ish manouvres is impossible without sliding around. The acceleration drops as Sonic approaches his speed cap, which itself, should be very high.

Then scale up the environment, so that its physically large enough to accomodate Sonic moving very quickly.

Maybe slide the boost in as a powerup.

So where does rolling factor into this? From the sound of this, it always seems running is the best option.