In Support of Humans

[JezMM]

I'd like two things: Yeah I'd like some more animal NPCs, even if they are generic and some are recolours of each other (this happened with the non-interactable humans in Unleashed, so it's cool).

Also, I'd be okay with another playable human. I imagine the fan backlash would be too great to risk a new main character, but something like having a few sections in Shadow's levels where the GUN commander helps him do some sort of puzzle would be cool (with control switching back and forth between them).

[Badnik Zero]

About what BL and Flyboy brought up, I'd very much like to see some common furries around the place. Are we supposed to believe it's strange that Knuckles has no family as the last Echidna, but the only other furry character with family is Cream? I don't really want us to be introduced to Sonic's parents, but at least give us a clue that there are other furries out there. Right now it seems like furries only ever existed in groups in the Mobian continuities. They don't live in the cities we've seen, besides Amy. Do they have their own little towns? I'm for the idea of a furry hub or two. Chronicles was great to throw in guys like Nestor the historian, and the Twilight Cage pirates. Those are some of the best moments in the game for me.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Badnikz

[Frobman]

I always have problems with humans in shows and series with non-human main characters (like Transformers, for example). Though meant to be put in as something to relate to the veiwers and gamers, they're tend to be written off as sort of blandish or hogging more of the screen time. Chris Thorndyke, is one example. We get little out of them in games up to Shadow, which I guess is good. More focus from them with Elise, and we get a character we no longer care for. Sonic Unleashed gave us a good selection of good personalities and designs (especially when compared with anthropormorphic animals with cartoony looks).

I've mentioned Transformers, which gets the same treatment. Often they'd use a human sidekick in each series to help associate with the veiwers. But unfortunately, they weren't really cared for, due to being annoying or having more unneccesary plot than the main characters we've come to watch. One reason I didn't like the new movie, was the screen time they had more than the Transformers themselves, and I barely cared for most of them. The old cartoons, I didn't mind them much (like Spike) and they didn't do much and had very few episodes focused on them, and the newer cartoon (Animated) has a better selection of humans in my opinion (Sari being a better human sidekick, and a better story that one could get into)

So I wouldn't mind human characters in most series that focus on non-human characters, unless they don't have too much screen time that we don't care for them, or that they're written better as characters who aren't just there or don't annoy us. That's why there's very few I don't mind, and lots of them that just kinda annoy me.

[The-Master-Board]

I won't mince words - I personally would prefer there to not be humans other than Eggman in the Sonic games. I don't like them, and I don't like how Sonic's world is so similar to our world. It ruins the fantasy for me.

^This

I'm sorry but I grew up in the early days of Sonic, simpler times when it was just Sonic and Eggman and maybe two other characters. Sure its possible to look back and use reasoning to assume there have always been humans in Sonic's world, but that still doesn't make it cool in my eyes.

I agree with Flyboy Fox about it being (one of many) things in newer Sonic that just ruins the fantasy feel for me, and personally I think just like my "Too many super forms make Super Sonic less unique" argument; that too many humans make Eggman less unique.

Another reason I don't like there being humans in Sonic games is because I don't like mass amounts of characters in Sonic games period. Human, furry or otherwise.

They can pull it off in the comics, but I don't trust Sonic Team to make a Sonic game with large human populace and animal populace without spotlighting several new unwanted characters all with special abilities that dwarf Sonic and co.

My thoughts on the subject is: I don't want them, but if they have to be here we need NPC furries as well, because we've had too many humans already. Oh and in no way should there ever be a playable human character other than Eggman...that just feels wrong.

To me the human aspect has always felt a little wrong, call me misanthropic, but they look too out of place. In the old AoSth cartoon the humans were odd looking, which was cool, cuz they weren't "human" in a way, I spose they were Mobians, Eggman has always been fine because he looks the part..um lets see...Snively I guess would come under that catergory too...human but Sonic universe human, Sth'06 humans were too realistic, Sonic Unleashed were too stupid overly cartoonish and child-like, and I think Sonic chronicles humans nailed it perfectly.

So pretty much I can't justify humans, because I want eggman to stay unique, which means other humans can't be too unrealistic, but I don't want super realism....or gay looking pixar models.

But really, the question we should be asking is: Do we really need the humans? The Sonic games really only need focus around Sonic and Eggman, and the other cast of Sonic's friends (all furries), anything that happens to a city can show the city or cars, no humans involved unless you wanna speculate about them being there inside those buildings or those moving cars. The classics worked fine withut humans, even the 3D Sonic games like Sonic Heroes had Eggman as the only human despite traveling through a few cities, and they were awesome.

I really think you're bringing a fight to the wrong crowd, Sonic has always been, and will be viewed by others as a furry series...even if thats only partially true. Complaining about the lack of humans in Sonic is like complaining about the lack of water in a desert.

[Solly]

Sonic Unleashed were too stupid overly cartoonish and child-like, and I think Sonic chronicles humans nailed it perfectly.

I thought Chronicle's humans were done in pretty much the same style as Unleashed's humans, with the possible exceptions of the Professor and the puzzle hint guy.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Venom

[Dr. Mechano]

I really think you're bringing a fight to the wrong crowd, Sonic has always been, and will be viewed by others as a furry series...even if thats only partially true. Complaining about the lack of humans in Sonic is like complaining about the lack of water in a desert.

I was waiting for someone to call Sonic a "furry series," so that I could deliver a proper rebuttal to this sentiment.

The main character is indeed an anthropomorphic hedgehog, sure. But the series started with an animal and a human. This human in particular is arguably as influential and integral a character as Sonic himself is. And for him to exist, the existence of other humans is- frankly- mandatory to make any shred of logical sense.

More than that, why must a series that stars an animal exclude humans? Let's look at a series that did it the other way- The Mario series stars a human, but it's still full of wacky species based on animals, plants, and other oddities. Nowhere have I seen the Mario fanbase argue "Bowser should be the only animal, and everyone else should be human like Mario and his friends."

Sonic, where the inverse is true, could quite logically work the same way. So what if Sonic is an animal? Does that mean non-animals should be disallowed? I mean, if you want to get really technical, humans are animals too, so there you go.

I don't think the official game developers, at any time, intended Sonic to be a "furry series", even if the franchise stars an animal. SatAM/Underground/Fleetway/early Archie? Sure, I can concede to those taking that kind of tone (Wherein the pure, blissful, innocent animals fight the nasty and corrupt humans who have no redeeming qualities to get back their natural utopian society, and blah blah), but the games? Looking at the game series, especially with the Japanese storyline in mind, doesn't indicate any misanthropic bias.

And really, that's good. Sonic, even though he's an animal, is as much a champion of humanity as he is to other animals. I like that aspect, and feel it fits better with videogame Sonic's "superhero" motif moreso than SatAM Sonic's "freedom fighter" one.

As for my suggestion for another playable human, I didn't mean a generic faceless soldier, but rather an over-the-top and colorful character much like Eggman is. That sort of thing, not your typical masked drone... Ah well.

Any piece of gameplay with a human always had the human inside a machine. Two points from this. The first is that humans have never been interesting enough on their own to support some kind of unique gameplay, be it the GUN Commander inside Diablon and any GUN bosses, or Eggman in SA2 and any boss fight with him back to the start of the series. Humans have no abilities to compensate when compared against the furry gameplay. Second, robots have been part of the series since the first Crabmeat, so why wouldn't people like to play as them? And Gran Gordo, Eggman has also been part of the series, but always inside a machine.

I also meant to address this.

Eggman was on foot in Chronicles, and that worked. Sure, he used mechanized weaponry, but still ran around like everyone else. So yeah, humans without vehicles is a workable concept.

Vehicles are fine too of course- I for one liked Eggman's SA2 stages, and found them considerably more fun than Gamma's.

On a closing note... The games, by virtue of taking place on Earth, wouldn't really have "Mobian" as a reference to anything. Even in the continuities where this term is used it hardly makes sense, since logically, you'd think "humans on Mobius"- what few there were- would also be "Mobians." Either way, with the games having fully embraced the Japanese canon (A move I for one am happy with, as the "American canon" was largely inconsistent and varied from manual to manual, mixed with ugly character redesigns on the boxart), the concept of Mobius is a nonfactor as far as the games are concerned.

Edited May 13, 2009 by El Gran Gordo

[Diogenes]

The idea that humans don't belong in this series is an old delusion that should've died out years ago. Eggman alone is proof enough that it's a load of crap, and that means it's been a load of crap from day one. There is literally no valid argument to the contrary.

That said, I do agree that it'd be nice to see animal NPCs more often as well. Sonic's world is one with both humans and talking animals, yet it's rare that we see an animal that hasn't been playable at one point or another, and almost never any that aren't specific, plot-relevant characters.

[YoshiUnity]

*Looks at El Gran Gordo sig.* Man, That's a lot of Eggmans... Cat-Eggman? Elvis-Eggman? Oh and a Sonic shoe... Cool.

Anyway, I don't mind it that there are humans in the Sonic universe and I don't see the big reason that would justify terminating all of them. As it was stated earlier, The series started with Sonic and Eggman, I saw him there and I was got use to it. Didn't bother me then, won't bother me now. Plus, I like the Pixar artstyle, it honestly made the humans seem like they fit more in Sonic's world, in my opinion.

In all the earlier games, I'll admit, it did seem odd. (Especially that CG Maria before she got shot. Her eyes still haunt me.O_o...XP) But I adjusted. The Sonic 06 style was even weirder. It took me a longer time to adjust, but still I was able to make due. I didn't have to adjust at all with the Unleashed artstyle, It fit like a glove.

It would be cool to have more anthropomorphic animals though. Yeah, some fans are going to yell and scream that they are there for 'just to be there and there's too many'... or whatever the rant of the day is. But once they are over it, or not and if I care, it could make the fanbase welcome NPCs a little easier for that fantasy factor. Plus, Sonic and friends can't be the only talking animals there, right? I mean, Cream and Vanilla has proven and the animals do have families in games.

Edited May 13, 2009 by YoshiUnity

[Flyboy Fox]

I don't think the official game developers, at any time, intended Sonic to be a "furry series", even if the franchise stars an animal. SatAM/Underground/Fleetway/early Archie? Sure, I can concede to those taking that kind of tone (Wherein the pure, blissful, innocent animals fight the nasty and corrupt humans who have no redeeming qualities to get back their natural utopian society, and blah blah), but the games? Looking at the game series, especially with the Japanese storyline in mind, doesn't indicate any misanthropic bias.

I would disagree that the developers never intended Sonic to be a 'furry' series. It's obvious that the majority of main cast characters are furries, and that humans, with the exception of Eggman, are a backdrop more than anything else. Why does that mindset automatically indicate misanthropic bias, though? We've seen plenty of humans who AREN'T bad guys... so the whole animals vs humans mindset is clearly untrue. It's in its most simplistic form furries vs Eggman, with a few occasional humans and furries falling into each camp.

Sonic is a furry franchise, even if it has humans.

[Sean]

I'm neutral toward the inclusion of human characters since in such portrayals as Man of the Year and Sonic Unleashed, the designs are cartoonish enough to look natural in Sonic's world, and are a far cry from the super-realistic portrayal in Sonic 2006 and the just plain weird look in SA2 and Sonic X.

It doesn't really make sense that we don't see any non-human, non-important NPC furry characters around though, except - ironically - the original pilot trailer for Sonic X. I'm theorizing that it's simply easier for the designers to design generic humans over generic furries.

[Toby]

That's just it. There are billions of fan character recolors on the internet. Do we really want that shit in the games too?

[Sean]

There's nothing that says they have to be recolors.

[Toby]

They would be though, that's an absolute fact. Why would Sonic Team want to waste designs on NPC furries?

[Diogenes]

They "waste" designs on NPC humans.

And there were original animal NPCs in SRA.

[Jason Berry]

I'm with the both humans and animals camp. I LOVE the look of the citizens in Unleashed and they should keep using that design. However, like Dragonball it needs a mix of both human and furry characters for that world to make more sense. Sonic and his friends can't be the only talking animals around.

Also, I disagree with Toby that they would be re-colours. If they take the time to design humans that are vastly different from each other, why not animals as well?

[Toby]

It'd be like this all the time, only in 3-D~ What fun. =p

[Flyboy Fox]

That was a cheap and extremely brief 'crowd' scene. Individual NPCs are unlikely to be of that poor pedigree.

[JezMM]

Just like Unleashed's humans, I think they should do individual designs for the interactive NPCs, and generic recolour designs for the non-interactable NPCs and background NPCs on levels.

[Sean]

Not that Sonic X is known for its creative character design, either. They even ruined Sonic's spines.

[The-Master-Board]

I was waiting for someone to call Sonic a "furry series," so that I could deliver a proper rebuttal to this sentiment.

The main character is indeed an anthropomorphic hedgehog, sure. But the series started with an animal and a human. This human in particular is arguably as influential and integral a character as Sonic himself is. And for him to exist, the existence of other humans is- frankly- mandatory to make any shred of logical sense.

More than that, why must a series that stars an animal exclude humans? Let's look at a series that did it the other way- The Mario series stars a human, but it's still full of wacky species based on animals, plants, and other oddities. Nowhere have I seen the Mario fanbase argue "Bowser should be the only animal, and everyone else should be human like Mario and his friends."

Sonic, where the inverse is true, could quite logically work the same way. So what if Sonic is an animal? Does that mean non-animals should be disallowed? I mean, if you want to get really technical, humans are animals too, so there you go.

I don't think the official game developers, at any time, intended Sonic to be a "furry series", even if the franchise stars an animal. SatAM/Underground/Fleetway/early Archie? Sure, I can concede to those taking that kind of tone (Wherein the pure, blissful, innocent animals fight the nasty and corrupt humans who have no redeeming qualities to get back their natural utopian society, and blah blah), but the games? Looking at the game series, especially with the Japanese storyline in mind, doesn't indicate any misanthropic bias.

And really, that's good. Sonic, even though he's an animal, is as much a champion of humanity as he is to other animals. I like that aspect, and feel it fits better with videogame Sonic's "superhero" motif moreso than SatAM Sonic's "freedom fighter" one.

As for my suggestion for another playable human, I didn't mean a generic faceless soldier, but rather an over-the-top and colorful character much like Eggman is. That sort of thing, not your typical masked drone... Ah well.

I also meant to address this.

Eggman was on foot in Chronicles, and that worked. Sure, he used mechanized weaponry, but still ran around like everyone else. So yeah, humans without vehicles is a workable concept.

Vehicles are fine too of course- I for one liked Eggman's SA2 stages, and found them considerably more fun than Gamma's.

On a closing note... The games, by virtue of taking place on Earth, wouldn't really have "Mobian" as a reference to anything. Even in the continuities where this term is used it hardly makes sense, since logically, you'd think "humans on Mobius"- what few there were- would also be "Mobians." Either way, with the games having fully embraced the Japanese canon (A move I for one am happy with, as the "American canon" was largely inconsistent and varied from manual to manual, mixed with ugly character redesigns on the boxart), the concept of Mobius is a nonfactor as far as the games are concerned.

Ha!

I disagree. Sure Sonic started off as a hedgehog and a man, but you can hardly say thats grounds to not call it a "furry" series, or say humans were and always have been a major part of it.

Where were they? and lets not just go on assumptions and speculation here, I'm talking actual in-game things. Humans (besides Eggman) are nowhere to be seen in any Sonic game until SA1, and even then none are that notable, its only til we get Maria and Gerald in SA2 that any human (again besides Eggman) are important.

Now don't give me the "humans couldn't be made then cuz of technology" crap, because if they could do Eggman and if they could do large amounts of Sonic friends (the critters from the capsules) then they could show a few humans especially in those city-like levels (starlight zone, casino night zone ect).

For that matter, why don't we see human characters in those capsules? Why not a few small children along with animals in there if humans were so prelevant back then?

You see, Sonic was made during a time when promoting the environment and stuff was cool (captain plante wiget the world watcher anyone?), and what better way than to make a game on the simple premise of animal critter vs evil polluting scientist. Sure there could've been other humans at the time, but they weren't needed, all that would do would confuse the simple plot, as they would either have to be good (taking some explaination) or be bad (which was uneeded because Eggman filled that roll already)

Then more characters were added, all furries, why? Because the hero was a furry, and you spend the time playing the games with the hero.

I don't see how you can associate the Sonic series (at least the beginings) with anything other than a furry intended series. However these days we're treated to more humans than anything. Over the course of Sonic history how many furries have we seen altogether in game? I'm gonna estimate and say 20 -25...now how many humans? It'd be in the hundreds considering CGI clips of human crowds and stuff.

But I know its no use putting points across to you, it clear you're way past biased on the subject matter, all I'm saying is maybe your inner fan chose the wrong series if you want humans, humans, humans, considering it is widely viewed (and justly so) as a furry series.

Edited May 13, 2009 by The-Master-Board

[Ell678]

Personally, I prefer no humans. It added to the mystery of Robotnik. Back when there was the Mobius/Earth confusion, if it was Mobius, what is he doing there? If it's Earth, what is Sonic doing there, and why is Robotnik on his own? I mean, he will have had at least one assistant that was human.

Also, the fact I grew up with STC, older Sonic games, and AOSTH sort of nailed that belief in.

[lounge]

Well of course there should be humans. Sonic has evolved from 2d, and so should his stories and surroundings. The human world actually makes sonic's image cooler. He's not just some generic cartoonish animal living in a cartoonish world. Realism is always a welcomed factor.

[redmenace]

The problem was who made the localizations, not the fans themselves. They only adjusted to what they saw at the time after all you can't really blame them. I got the games first, and I had a hell lot of fun with them. I always thought it was on Earth and that there were other humans around as well (Eggam existed) as other animals (Sonic existed) but we just didn't see them because they weren't important.

Enter the adaptations. About the cartoons, it was obvious to me at the time that at least one of them was lying. There were two different versions after all, it was just that simple. Since both of them had a brown tails and a very different depiction of Eggman, along with characters that I had never seen before or heard about in the games the conclusion was very simple. They were both lying. I took both as what they were, something with Sonic therefore good, but not

Edited May 13, 2009 by redmenace

[Frozen Nitrogen]

This. I'm tired of this crap as well. I'd like to see NPC animals as well but damn, I know exacly where this would lead. People self inserting themselves through them as if recolours of hacks weren't enough.

Once again: there has been an en-masse furry NPC hubworld: Pachacamac's city in SA1. And that didn't explode in a fermenting barrel of self-insertion.

Possibly because no-one wants to Mary Sue as someone who's been dead for 4,000 years. But there you go.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Frozen Nitrogen

[AdventChild]

I really don't mind humans that much yet rather be NPC than anything else, but I would prefer to add more (NPC) animals to balance it out and to make locales varied in the hub worlds so it doesn't look like Sonic's gang are the only anthros/animals on the planet. It makes things interesting that way IMO.