Sally Acorn a official Sega character?

[Skull Leader]

SEGA of America determined that is a Sally Acorn.

SEGA of Japan determined that is a Ricky.

But the problem is that SoJ created Ricky, SoA just took an existing one and renamed it. That's like what Harmony Gold did in the early 80's when they took Macross and renamed it into Robotech. That IMO is not creating, only localizing.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Doesn't matter- it was marketed by them that way. It also isn't that close an example- we're discussing a concept belonging to a franchise being adapted. You're discussing the franchise itself being adapted. Different scales.

Verte- Aaah, now there's the underlying problem. You could've just said it earlier and it would have saved us a lot of trouble. Hogwash indeed.

Here's the deal- it's as much hogwash as the SoJ version.

(And a quick disclaimer again- I don't like the SoA version. Prefer the SoJ version, though the SoE backstory may be my favourite.)

Fans like to deny this, but Sonic wasn't made with Japan in mind. There's no ONE TRUE STORY, per se, at least not until Sonic Adventure and the standardized International story.

Yuji Naka said it himself in a 1994 (iirc) interview (which I think you can find in saturdaymorningsonic.com, can't remember exactly, I'll search around later) that they always intended for the SEGA of each region to make their own story, so they focused on making the games simple and colourful. (Which is one of my problems with SatAM, where the colours at?)

the SoA story is as official as the SoJ story or the SoE story, and they're all in similar situations too- they were all replaced. Doesn't make them any less official.

To use something else as an example, just because Batman Begins came out, doesn't mean the 90's Batman films didn't exist (I wish they didn't, though. At least the last two.). The SoA story is official, because it was made by SEGA; they just chose to stop running with it.

[turbojet]

How did they get Sally out of that?

Jesus, someone must have tried really hard to make their own Mary Sue in the games because that is reaching.

It is the definition of trying to make apples out of Jesus.

[Mauro Fonseca]

How did they get Sally out of that?

Jesus, someone must have tried really hard to make their own Mary Sue in the games because that is reaching.

It is the definition of trying to make apples out of Jesus.

Look at the thread, I've posted images that show the evolution. Basically, they decided she had to be a princess because... the 80's were fresh?

then they started evolving her, making her as tall as Sonic, then drawing her more Saturday Cartoonish more and more, a bit of Don Bluth really.

The only time in which you really can't look at Sally, squint, and see Ricky (and vice versa) is in the StC-shown Proto SatAM, in which she looks like a furry Madonna (the Sonic character, not the singer). I have no idea what happened there, but it's strange.

[Vertekins]

Verte- Aaah, now there's the underlying problem. You could've just said it earlier and it would have saved us a lot of trouble. Hogwash indeed.

Here's the deal- it's as much hogwash as the SoJ version.

But it isn't. I mean manual stories that is.

To accept the western manual stories as saying the absolute truth today in regards to the game it's packaged with is faulty logic. It'd mean that you'd be ignoring established canon. Believing SoA's manual stories over SoJ's would mean that;

1. Tails had known Sonic since babyhood instead of believing the true story that states how it was the Tornado that brought them together and certainly not when Tails was a baby. (Western Sonic 2 manual)

2. That the small animals are sentient and are capable of speech when this has never been shown to be the case. (Sonic Chaos Manual, Sonic 3D Blast in-game, which depicts Flicky(ies) thanking Sonic in the good ending which, guess what, was a game that was neither developed by Sonic Team nor released in Japan except for the Saturn version, which DOESN'T have the scene which featured talking Flicky(ies)

3. That Amy Rose is Princess Sally. Which is extremely obviously a piss-poor attempt at promoting SatAM which was airing around the same time as CD's release and which, yes, yet again, has no canonical basis.

4. That Eggman stole ALL of the emeralds from a "North Cave" instead of just the Red one in Sonic Chaos.

5. That Newtrogic High Zone is some kind of purposefully-built "Carnival Island" that wasn't created with Master Emerald energy and that Knuckles has taken up employment there. It'd also mean accepting the existence of a "Power Emerald" which isn't even shown in-game whatsoever. The Western Chaotix manual also directly states that Knux is friends with the Chaotix when the JP manual states that each Chaotix member went to Newtrogic High of his own accord and just happened to get Combi-Confined by Eggman.

There's more examples than that I'm sure but it proves that a lot Western manual stories are not canon and therefore can't be ultimately used as an example to prove something most of the time.

[Mauro Fonseca]

... Verte, this is not religion. It's not about believing. SEGA released those stories and that's that. Do they make sense with one another? No? Don't matter.

That's like complaining that the 2009 Spider-Man cartoon didn't follow the 1990's Spider-Man cartoon.

Each of the three SEGAs did it's own story at the time. Then, SEGA of Japan took over, and a new story was made based on SoJ's. But that doesn't mean the others aren't valid. Notice I never said canon, though, I say valid. As in, franchise-wise valid.

Transformers Comics in the US are official, and so are the UK ones and the IDW ones and the Dreamwave ones. Marvel Adventures Spider-Man is as official as Ultimate Spider-Man.

[Aquaslash]

But it isn't. I mean manual stories that is.

To accept the western manual stories as saying the absolute truth today in regards to the game it's packaged with is faulty logic. It'd mean that you'd be ignoring established canon. Believing SoA's manual stories over SoJ's would mean that;

1. Tails had known Sonic since babyhood instead of believing the true story that states how it was the Tornado that brought them together and certainly not when Tails was a baby. (Western Sonic 2 manual)

2. That the small animals are sentient and are capable of speech when this has never been shown to be the case. (Sonic Chaos Manual, Sonic 3D Blast in-game, which depicts Flicky(ies) thanking Sonic in the good ending which, guess what, was a game that was neither developed by Sonic Team nor released in Japan except for the Saturn version, which DOESN'T have the scene which featured talking Flicky(ies)

3. That Amy Rose is Princess Sally. Which is extremely obviously a piss-poor attempt at promoting SatAM which was airing around the same time as CD's release and which, yes, yet again, has no canonical basis.

4. That Eggman stole ALL of the emeralds from a "North Cave" instead of just the Red one in Sonic Chaos.

5. That Newtrogic High Zone is some kind of purposefully-built "Carnival Island" that wasn't created with Master Emerald energy and that Knuckles has taken up employment there. It'd also mean accepting the existence of a "Power Emerald" which isn't even shown in-game whatsoever. The Western Chaotix manual also directly states that Knux is friends with the Chaotix when the JP manual states that each Chaotix member went to Newtrogic High of his own accord and just happened to get Combi-Confined by Eggman.

There's more examples than that I'm sure but it proves that a lot Western manual stories are not canon and therefore can't be ultimately used as an example to prove something most of the time.

The problem is that there wasn't an "absolute truth" until Sonic Adventure. Back in the day, each region did its own thing, and the games were made as simple as possible in order to accommodate that. Back then the SoJ story was just as canon as the SoE story which was just as canon as the SoA story. Sonic Adventure however changed everything. Now none of them are canon anymore. A new canon was created which has loose references to the games themselves and the events and locales solely in them. That said, all three of those old storylines were still official SEGA storylines and concepts, etc.

Ergo, all of these characters and things withtin are official SEGA characters. Case in point, if you take Sally and try to make her the main character of your work with an intent to profit, it's gonna be SEGA who brings down the legal C+D on your ass.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Aquaslash

[Kuzu]

But it isn't. I mean manual stories that is.

To accept the western manual stories as saying the absolute truth today in regards to the game it's packaged with is faulty logic. It'd mean that you'd be ignoring established canon. Believing SoA's manual stories over SoJ's would mean that;

1. Tails had known Sonic since babyhood instead of believing the true story that states how it was the Tornado that brought them together and certainly not when Tails was a baby. (Western Sonic 2 manual)

2. That the small animals are sentient and are capable of speech when this has never been shown to be the case. (Sonic Chaos Manual, Sonic 3D Blast in-game, which depicts Flicky(ies) thanking Sonic in the good ending which, guess what, was a game that was neither developed by Sonic Team nor released in Japan except for the Saturn version, which DOESN'T have the scene which featured talking Flicky(ies)

3. That Amy Rose is Princess Sally. Which is extremely obviously a piss-poor attempt at promoting SatAM which was airing around the same time as CD's release and which, yes, yet again, has no canonical basis.

4. That Eggman stole ALL of the emeralds from a "North Cave" instead of just the Red one in Sonic Chaos.

5. That Newtrogic High Zone is some kind of purposefully-built "Carnival Island" that wasn't created with Master Emerald energy and that Knuckles has taken up employment there. It'd also mean accepting the existence of a "Power Emerald" which isn't even shown in-game whatsoever. The Western Chaotix manual also directly states that Knux is friends with the Chaotix when the JP manual states that each Chaotix member went to Newtrogic High of his own accord and just happened to get Combi-Confined by Eggman.

There's more examples than that I'm sure but it proves that a lot Western manual stories are not canon and therefore can't be ultimately used as an example to prove something most of the time.

But it doesn't matter if it was canon or not, that's how America interpreted Sonic, just like how Japan had its own interpretation, just because one doesn't ,make sense doesn't make it any less official. Its all rendered moot anyway with Sonic Adventure pretty much abolishing all three interpretations, the only thing it took was Eggman's name, and combined it with his American one. Because SoA IS Sega, and they localized Ricky AS Sally and Sally is based off of Ricky, Sally more or less is a Sega Character.

[Tornado]

No they weren't.

Yes they were. From before day one in the SoA canon, and I'm pretty sure from day one in the SoJ canon.

Not once were the small animals portrayed as being more than non-sentient animals. Western manuals may have portrayed this (Such as "Flicky the Bluebird" in the Sonic Chaos manual informing Sonic and Tails that the emeralds are missing from the "North cave", directly stating that Flickies talk and therefore have sentience) but it has no canonical basis because it is typical hogwash written by SoA. To accept that the small animals are sentient and capable of speech is like accepting the western Sonic 2's manual's rubbish that states that Tails knew Sonic since babyhood which is false.

Honestly? That bit I mentioned earlier about how people said the Japanese canon was better just because? Your arguments are starting to sound exactly like that with the dismissive way you are referring to things like this with your most recent posts in this thread.

Edit: And while its on my mind, try not to justify arguments with sweeping "how evil is Eggman/Robotnik/Julian/Pingas" statements like this:

And besides, giving the small animals sentience subsquently puts Eggman squarely into monster territory. It could be argued that whilst Eggman is very cruel in imprisoning these creatures inside robots, he doesn't explicitly step into monster territory because the creatures aren't exactly sentient. It's what seperates him from SatAM 'Buttnik.

Because that is an entirely different can of worms that is, again, based entirely on subjective interpretations.

Edited August 11, 2011 by Tornado

[Blackbell]

All of the Sega companies have different back stories around the world- there is another thread about it.

Looking back on this thread I think it'll be impossible for people to argue whether or not Sally is an official Sega character because everyone has different views of the matter. Thinking on it now -does it really matter?

Sally only appears in one part of the franchise and it'll probably be very unlikely she'll be introduced to the games or any other expansions (as herself and not Ricky) since- after 20 or so years Sega still hasn't introduced her in any game as an actual character. So whether Sally is a Sega character or not it's a very unlikely possibility/ probably never that Sally is going to exist outside the comics (again).

[Julian Kintobor]

Yes she is, if she was not then SEGA would not let her in their comic book series. Remember all characters in the book are licensed by SEGA of America and Sonic Team, and can be used by them any time they want. And take a look at this

[Badnik Mechanic]

Yes she is, if she was not then SEGA would not let her in their comic book series. Remember all characters in the book are licensed by SEGA of America and Sonic Team, and can be used by them any time they want. And take a look at this

[massive image]

You've not read any of this topic. Have you?

We already know that she's an official character. But she's not a canon character and that image is so badly flawed, badly flawed in the respect that... well... it's completely wrong and misleading. Do we need to bring up the thing again about Ricky having nothing to do with Sally at all?

[#EndyGate]

Wasn't that entire post posted already before?

[Flyboy Fox]

Sally is an official character, as in she is canon to the SEGA-licensed series she appears in. She is NOT, however, canon to the game universe. It's not even debatable. She may have her distant roots traced back to a throwaway animal battery 'character' from the early games, but as Sally Acorn she is simply nothing to do with the games.

[Mauro Fonseca]

True. She is, however, canon, copyrighted, and completely a SEGA concept, and up until Sonic Adventure yes, she was a part of the game world, no matter how tacked on it was.

@Hogfather- I don't see how it can be misleading. I forgot to add an image I found later of Sally in the SatAM storyboards, but other than that you'll find no lie in there, and the only assumption is on some of the dates. Ricky WAS Sally Acorn in the West, and there's no arguing that.

@Julian- ... Did you get the image from a couple of pages back, or is that thing circulating the internet? because if it is, I wannt make something better looking

[Flyboy Fox]

True. She is, however, canon, copyrighted, and completely a SEGA concept, and up until Sonic Adventure yes, she was a part of the game world, no matter how tacked on it was.

No. No she wasn't. The (debatably) non-sentient/furry critter animal her design was BASED on was in early games. The character of Sally Acorn herself was NOT.

Are all chao specifically Cheese? No, they are not. Cheese is a specific chao. Sally was developed beyond the original Ricky design to become a completely unique entity who just happens to be based on Ricky. All chao are not Cheese, and all Ricky are not Sally. Sally herself never appeared in the old games that Ricky featured in. Therefore Sally was never game canon (and Spinball totally does not count).

[Mauro Fonseca]

Oh come on, the moment you need to specify Spinball doesn't count the discussion can't go on.

And I'll stick to what I say, though, that for all intents and purposes Sally WAS Ricky. Forget you're in any year after 1999. Forget you've ever had any contact with Sonic outside of what SoA gives you.

The squirrel is named Sally Acorn.

[Badnik Mechanic]

True. She is, however, canon, copyrighted, and completely a SEGA concept, and up until Sonic Adventure yes, she was a part of the game world, no matter how tacked on it was.

@Hogfather- I don't see how it can be misleading. I forgot to add an image I found later of Sally in the SatAM storyboards, but other than that you'll find no lie in there, and the only assumption is on some of the dates. Ricky WAS Sally Acorn in the West, and there's no arguing that.

@Julian- ... Did you get the image from a couple of pages back, or is that thing circulating the internet? because if it is, I wannt make something better looking

Again... have people actually read any of this topic.

Ricky is not... nor has ever been Sally! They are two completely different characters!

Theres plenty of arguing that she isn't! It occured between pages 1-6 of this topic if you'd care to actually go through it and read it all!

If you are seriously saying that Ricky is Sally, then you're also claiming that Pockly is Johnny Lightfoot when he's not!

Oh and one more grand example of this Ricky = Sally nonsense.

That means that this guy...

Is also this guy.

[Blue Blood]

The squirrel is named Sally Acorn.

Did you even read what Flyboy said? Ricky is the name of a species, not a character. Sally Acorn what the name of a character who was a Ricky. There weren't dozens of Sally Acorns popping out of Badniks in Marble Zone and Emerald Hill.

[Flyboy Fox]

And I'll stick to what I say, though, that for all intents and purposes Sally WAS Ricky. Forget you're in any year after 1999. Forget you've ever had any contact with Sonic outside of what SoA gives you.

The squirrel is named Sally Acorn.

Localisation often makes mistakes. Amy was called Sally at one point too. It's clearly not the same character. It's not THE Sally from SatAM/Archie. It was a bad localisation compromise. You can't honestly believe that SatAM's Sally is the same character as Ricky. That's just so silly.

Was Ricky referred to as Sally once upon a time? Yes. Is Ricky the same character as Sally Acorn as everyone knows her? No. Sally Acorn is not game canon. Stop being a ridiculous pedant.

[Nepenthe]

If I were to pretend that I was still a child playing only the Genny games and never really watching the shows, the squirrel would be called either "squirrel" or "cat." Seriously, I couldn't even determine what the thing actually looked like in the game.

If I'd actually been exposed to SatAM during that time, I would've never said Sally was Ricky anymore than I would've said Rotor is Rocky. They look different, they act different, and for all intents and purposes are different. One thing being based off of something doesn't necessarily mean both are the exact same. That's ridiculous.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Hogfather- I am making that exact claim. Before 1999, according to what SEGA told us, the rabbit in Sonic 1 was named Johnny Lightfoot.

Blue Blood- Again, that is what we know now. Do as I asked Flyboy to do- forget anything after 1999 ever existed. Unless you're from Japan or have contact with it's canon, the squirrel is Sally Acorn, as it says on the manuals, books authored by SEGA, everywhere. The same for Johnny Lightfoot, Porker Lewis, etc. Just like the villain was Robotnik. Unless you happened to read the obscure manual of Sonic Drift

EDIT: I've already said I am not talking specifically about the SatAM Sally. I am talking about the concept, the idea, of Sally Acorn, as part of the Sonic franchise. Just like how the idea of Mighty was actually from Sonic 1 and not SEGASonic Arcade, or the cocnept of Vector was actually from Sonic 1 as well, or the concept of Amy was from the manga.

EDIT EDIT: Show me Lew Stringer saying he based Shortfuse out of Ray and I'll accept it. Until then, you're being facetious.

Edited August 15, 2011 by The KKM

[Badnik Mechanic]

Hogfather- I am making that exact claim. Before 1999, according to what SEGA told us, the rabbit in Sonic 1 was named Johnny Lightfoot.

[Nepenthe]

The US manuals actually gave the Small Animals the names of their spin-off counterparts? Pics or it didn't happen.

[Mauro Fonseca]

The US manuals actually gave the Small Animals the names of their spin-off counterparts? Pics or it didn't happen.

Edited August 15, 2011 by The KKM