Netflix Premieres Sonic Prime Season 3's First Episode on YouTube, Available Now

3 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

There is no shame in getting dropped by what is essentially a small army of Metal Sonic's (especially considering how OP Chaos Sonic was). He's the ultimate life form, not a god. He lived up to the rep and then some. Without him, Nine would have captured Sonic and we'd be staring at a game over screen.

Yeah I see that now. Still idk he could've done more, such as using his inhibitor rings.

Sonic is definitely weak though, the entire show all thats happened is him getting absolutely clowend on by everyone.

On 1/5/2024 at 11:22 AM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Well if anything, I'm sure some Sonadow shippers will be happy, much to Sontails fans dismay :P

I think Nine would be more dismayed seeing you refer to it as SonTails instead of SoNine /j

On 1/5/2024 at 10:25 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

Three. We're almost done.

1) There are only 4 shards
2) Infinite possibilities mean that we will never explore all of them, so four or a million is still less than 1% of infinity
3) Sadly the budget is very much not infinite, especially with 3D shows.

There are 5 shards and 5 worlds including GHZ and the Grim. But yeah the budget is very limited lol, it's just the animations are smooth and the models pretty, the action is really well thought.

For a multiverse show 5 worlds is not much. But considering this was the budget for 24 episodes, it's okay, maybe too many episodes and the plot and assets, resources are stretched out a lot, for comparison, Marvel's What If season 1 (the show has 2 seasons) is 9 episodes long, has Disney budget but it's not THAT much superior to Prime in that department, it's just with it being 9 episodes long, every episode feels new and high budget. Prime felt like the first 8 episodes were throwing new things all the time, with part 2 it's mostly the same stuff every episode, with the Grim being saved for the last part a bit more cleverly.

I don't mind the entire first season having 24 episodes, I just wish they fleshed out the characters more, the plot is no doubt well done, but a lot of the secondary cast is there just to fill the worlds and sell toys, like Jungle Knuckles and Pirate Amy are something like Doctor Barbie to sell more toys. It's that type of mindset, I wish they explored these characters, but undoubtely some of them were given the focus like Dread, Thorn and Nine.

It's a kids show alright, very well made but still not interested in fleshing out everything despite the fact they had a lot of episodes, instead the show feels to me like it's a small plot that is very extended, honestly. I'm still looking forward to this last part, don't get me wrong, I'm curious to see how it ends, but they are likely stretchinig the plot even more this time, with Shadow and the Grim location being only a small part.

12 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Thats just the thing though, in the lead up to Prime, a lot of people bit onto the hard sell that this was canon. That we'd be getting something 1 to 1 with the games verse.

and all things weighted, this version of Sonic, as a character,  just isn't that. Its not even close. This isn't the same Hedgehog that we saw running through any of the games. It'd be one thing to judge Prime as a spinoff, and weigh him on his own merits as an individual take on the character - but that kind of logic doesn't apply here because that's not the bill of goods we were sold. We were told to expect canon, and as it stands an alternate take on the character under that promise is unacceptable.

Yes, Prime Sonic has a different personality than Sega Sonic (closer to the Paramount version). A bit of a shame, we wanted X, but we got Y.

But again, so what? Judge things on their own dang merit. Remember games right before Frontiers? Compare IDW versions of Tails, Knuckles or Eggman to their depictions in Forces or Lost World. Flynn wrote them differently, AKA much much better. Were you complaining then?

Also, Tails has 3 different personalities in Frontiers, Forces, and Lost World. Is Prime Sonic really that big a stretch?

And even if you insist on your view, how would your retcon suggestion help? It's like saying "I watched 3 hours of "Iron Man 4" and there is no Iron Man. The movie is technically good, but it lied to me so I hate it... unless Tony Stark shows up in the last 3 minutes. That will totally save the experience".

It might be a minor improvement, but "a lot of Prime's problems disappear" seems like an exaggeration to me.

5 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

For a multiverse show 5 worlds is not much.

Honestly, I think we would get a much better show if New Yolk was the only new dimension.

The best parts of the shows are Nine and Shadow, both of which can be still used. And with so much saved budget we could have more robots, locations, maybe more Sega cast. Actually spend some time with Rouge, flesh out Chaos Council, etc.

Sure, we lose pirates and jungle, but would anyone cry about it? At worst, I would miss Rusty and Black Rose friendhip, and this could be retooled.

I would psml if at the end, all events and reforming the prism corrupted EVERYTHING,  and they all revert to classic form. They then retcon the classic games to be stories set in to a larger saga that is them trying to "restore" themselves to SA1 onwards design lol

51 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Honestly, I think we would get a much better show if New Yolk was the only new dimension.

The best parts of the shows are Nine and Shadow, both of which can be still used. And with so much saved budget we could have more robots, locations, maybe more Sega cast. Actually spend some time with Rouge, flesh out Chaos Council, etc.

 

Sure, we lose pirates and jungle, but would anyone cry about it? At worst, I would miss Rusty and Black Rose friendhip, and this could be retooled.

If it's a multiverse show, hell no... what you suggest is Forces the show, basically. I'd rather had them flesh out pirate and jungle, also the fill the grim one with characters rather than bots. There are already few, at least have few but good ones.

9 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

If it's a multiverse show, hell no... what you suggest is Forces the show, basically. I'd rather had them flesh out pirate and jungle, also the fill the grim one with characters rather than bots. There are already few, at least have few but good ones.

Well, I would prefer good Forces show over average Multiverse show.

If you have a budget for only 5 worlds (3 or 4 of which are bare and practically empty), why even bother with multiverse?

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Well, I would prefer good Forces show over average Multiverse show.

If you have a budget for only 5 worlds (3 or 4 of which are bare and practically empty), why even bother with multiverse?

As I said 5 worlds would not be a problem if they weren't spread across so many episodes without being fleshed out. I would be okay with 5 great worlds over a huge number of nothing, instead we got a good main world and 2 filler worlds, plus a dead world and an empty world. Marvel's What if also doesn't have too many worlds but the budget is contained within 9 quality episodes.

44 minutes ago, Red Hot Jack said:

As I said 5 worlds would not be a problem if they weren't spread across so many episodes without being fleshed out.

They can't be fleshed out, because there was no time/money/pizza/whatever.

Resources were clearly limited.

Ergo, considering the size of the resources, I would prefer 1 fleshed-out world over 5 bare worlds.
 

I mentioned there was new Sonic Prime out to my 9 year old nephew. He said, "That's cool i didnt know Prime and Sonic had teamed up. Will it be in a special blue bottle?"

I just lost all hope and just said "yeh, suppose so". 

I was visiting my brothers apartment when it came out.  I got very excited and since he is also a big Sonic fan we watched it together!  I liked how smooth the animation looks.  I feel that with the whole multiverse arc they could have added some more side characters from the franchise’s big cast of characters.  I like the way they are handling the characters now though and I am excited to see what happens to Nine!         

6 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Yes, Prime Sonic has a different personality than Sega Sonic (closer to the Paramount version). A bit of a shame, we wanted X, but we got Y.

But again, so what? Judge things on their own dang merit.

Thats the problem. This isn't we wanted X and got Y, we were literally told to expect X and got Y. Its a completely different situation.

In the lead up to Prime, Sega was on their pedestal about the Sonic canon and we were told multiple times that Prime was going to fall in line with the rest of it. If you dig back up to the original announcement thread, or any of the canon discussion threads, people who were disillusioned with the multiple branches were hyped about that, and those of us that don't mind the branches at the very least knew what to expect with prime.

I'm a big fan of letting creatives be creative. Giving alternate versions their own room to breathe and develop, but this isn't that. You don't get to "judge this on its own merits" any more than you would a direct sequel. Sonic 2 will forever be compared to Sonic 1 and the expectations for it will be shaped by its predecessor. You don't get a free pass to change core aspects of his character and call it creative liberty in this scenario.
 

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Remember games right before Frontiers? Compare IDW versions of Tails, Knuckles or Eggman to their depictions in Forces or Lost World. Flynn wrote them differently, AKA much much better. Were you complaining then?

Everyone was complaining. Tails to this day gets grief for what he was in Forces, because it was inconsistent with the growth he showed since SA1. Ditto with Knux. Most of what Flynn did was simply work around what happened to present it in a better light and "fix" it.

The important thing to remember is Flynn didn't retcon any of the crap that happened. He bent over backwards to have characters like Tails address it and move forward. Even if the depictions were different, he included the previous missteps as part of the characters growth arc. Prime doesn't do any of that. It just presents a Sonic that is different, for no other reason than because it is the vision of the dev team for him to be that way.

If you want to have that creative liberty, market it as a spinoff.

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Also, Tails has 3 different personalities in Frontiers, Forces, and Lost World. Is Prime Sonic really that big a stretch?

Sonic is the main character, so any differences are magnified that much more. Outside small parts of Lost World, Tails never drove the narrative. Sonic does for every moment he is on screen. Small differences lead to much more drastic deviations.

End of the day, Prime Sonic is different enough that you would be hard pressed to find anything more than an infinitesimal cross section of the fanbase that would consider it a true representation of the videogame version of the character (Sonic himself is the most common gripe against the show because of it).

That wasn't my idea, but I get the motive behind it.

Basically, introducing the Multiverse lets you cheat the canon rules.

If you establish Prime as canon, and then at the end of the series open up the multiverse and show that the Prime Sonic we have been following around is not in fact the same Sonic from the games - then the expectations that  he needs to be 1 to 1 with game Sonic also go mostly out the window. It turns into the Marvel "what if" series where you can have the creative freedom to make changes to established characters and not have to be bound to the restraints of what is already there. You can then look back at the series and judge the character on his own merits, knowing that he was never supposed to be "the" Sonic.

Right now, we can't do that because we were led to assume that he was "the" Sonic.

Ok, most of your arguments make sense. I just can't see how this is the MOST IMPORTANT issue for you in the whole show.

Like, do you think the show is just an absolute 10/10 and this is one small thing that holds it back from perfection?
Or do have some gripes, with story, character, locations, or anything, and yet they all pale in comparison to the importance of some dumb statement on Twitter?

Let's say "Into the Spider-Verse", one best Marvel of all time, had one of the writers say that Movie Miles is also Comic Miles.
Would that turn a 10/10 movie into a 7/10 for you?

20 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Ok, most of your arguments make sense. I just can't see how this is the MOST IMPORTANT issue for you in the whole show.

Like, do you think the show is just an absolute 10/10 and this is one small thing that holds it back from perfection?
Or do have some gripes, with story, character, locations, or anything, and yet they all pale in comparison to the importance of some dumb statement on Twitter?

 

I actually like Prime. One of the only things about it that I actively dislike about it is its portrayal of Sonic (oddly enough, I wouldn't like him even if I did judge him on his own merits - but imagining him as "the" sonic makes it even worse). There are little things here and there, but when the main character is off, it stands out a bit more. Chaos Sonic was annoying, but he was only around for 2 episodes. Sonic himself has been a thorn in my side since episode 1.

Between the action, animation quality and high stakes, I'd say the show is a solid 8.

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Let's say "Into the Spider-Verse", one best Marvel of all time, had one of the writers say that Movie Miles is also Comic Miles.
Would that turn a 10/10 movie into a 7/10 for you?

It depends on your opinion of Comic Miles. If you love comic miles and Spirder-Verse provides a faithful and entertaining adaptation, then knowing that they are one in the same would probably boost your enjoyment of the movie. If he is a tangent (either in a good or bad way), then everything different about him instead turns to affront the the time-tested established character you were promised to be viewing and can harm the experience.

Let me put it another way. If I promise you a Steak, and then serve you a Medium-Rare Kobe - then I have delivered what I promised. Your enjoyment of that steak is entirely dependent on the quality and seasoning of that steak.

If I promise you a Medium-Rare Kobe and then serve you a Well Done Wagyu - then despite still serving you steak, I have not delivered what I have promised. The quality of the Wagyu may become irrelevant. It may even turn out to be better than the Kobe. But by promising a specific variant, and offering something different I have opened the door to valid criticism. Some people may simply sit back and enjoy the Wagyu, but others will have 100% valid ammunition to send the steak back to he chef because it is not what they were promised.

If I order chocolate ice cream and get vanilla ice cream instead, that does not affect ice cream quality.

It only affects my review of the waiter.

Maybe this shop sells great chocolate ice cream and medium vanilla, but it's unfair to say "This vanilla sucks because it's not chocolate".

On 1/6/2024 at 12:33 PM, MetalSkulkBane said:

...You know, I heard recently people saying Tarkovsky Clone Wars is bad because "Jedi aren't supposed to be this strong"

Minor continuity issues really shouldn't be a decisive factor in whether the spin-off is good or not.

(also, I'm betting 100 to 1 that it ain't gonna happen)

Well those people would be wrong canon wise but Star Wars is a whole other can of worms that would take us off topic.

Continuity is what sells the illusion of the story and when you decide to connect it directly to the source material that demands greater respect and care taken than with a normal adaption. The issues here are also not minor, Sonic for instance is basically a completely different person.

Of course, thats why I said its what I hope would happen not will. Unlike IDW, Prime only sees its canon status as a marketing tool after all.

8 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

If I order chocolate ice cream and get vanilla ice cream instead, that does not affect ice cream quality.

It only affects my review of the waiter.

I agree.

Like in my example, the quality of the substitute can be rendered irrelevant if you are not delivered what it is you were promised.

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Maybe this shop sells great chocolate ice cream and medium vanilla, but it's unfair to say "This vanilla sucks because it's not chocolate".

The point is your enjoyment of that vanilla will be dictated by your expectations. If I want chocolate. I pine for chocolate. You promise me chocolate and you serve me vanilla? - then there is no person on this planet who would be considered unreasonable for being upset. It could be the best batch of vanilla on the planet and for many people, that won't matter.

(I do think Prime Sonic sucks) but because of the expectations that were set for the show, saying Prime Sonic sucks because he is not 1 to 1 with the games is actually a valid criticism. Compare that to saying "Movie Sonic sucks" for the same reason, and that would be a disingenuous statement because its clearly its own thing that never masqueraded as the perfect translation.

2 hours ago, The Swordsman said:

Continuity is what sells the illusion of the story (...)

Okay, here's a crazy idea: how about treating it like it isn't canon to the games? Just intentionally forget about that one statement by Logan McPherson. Magically the show will get twice as good, yes?

I completely get why continuity matters. Why plot holes matter. Why correct characterization matters.

But Prime has as much connection to the games as those Fast Friends comics we had recently. At least Star Wars tells a big story, so when you see Anakin succumbing to the Dark Side in Clone Wars, it is part of a greater arc in the movies. Events in Prime have no connection to Frontiers or Adventure games.

I don't care whether or not Prime is canon to the games. Sonic in Sonic Prime is an unlikable, whiny idiot and might be the worst portrayal of the character among all Sonic media ever made to date. His presence drags down what's already an ambitiously mid show with mediocre writing.

28 minutes ago, Sean said:

Sonic in Sonic Prime is an unlikable, whiny idiot and might be the worst portrayal of the character among all Sonic media ever made to date.

I don't know if "unlikeable" or "whiny idiot" are the terms I'd use to cover the whole of the series.

Cuz there's a lot of moments I can think of where Sonic's behavior is pretty much like the games. The Season 1 finale being the one that always pops into mind, with that whole showdown against Rusty Rose, and the exchanges the two have. Season 2 premiere where he's telling Shadow to back off of Nine & the others. Then again when he's trying to get Prim & the others to work with Thorn in Season 2.

Sonic's mainly out of his element, hopping between realities & not understanding everything at first, 'cause Tails isn't there to explain everything like usual. With the uncertainty of his friends' fate on top of that. Thus, blaming himself. It's not like in Frontiers where he knows their somewhat safe, and having that as reassurance for the journey ahead.

So not a 100% idiot, and I personally do find him likeable, especially on the wider range of emotions than he's had in the games, for the most part.

17 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

They can't be fleshed out, because there was no time/money/pizza/whatever.

Resources were clearly limited.

Ergo, considering the size of the resources, I would prefer 1 fleshed-out world over 5 bare worlds.
 

Can't tell the level of sarcasm here. But all was needed was GOOD WRITING

2 hours ago, Red Hot Jack said:

Can't tell the level of sarcasm here. But all was needed was GOOD WRITING

I swear, zero.

I agree that Prime writing could has a loooot better, but I don't see how much it would help fleshing out the world.

Take Pirate World for example. Assume you have no resources for more characters, islands, ships, phenomenons.

How would you "flesh out" this huge empty ocean with like 3 ships and some rocks?

I found it exciting and leaves you wanting more, I'm eager to see how this season ends, it seems to me that lately they want to pay a lot of attention to shadow with Sonic.

20 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Okay, here's a crazy idea: how about treating it like it isn't canon to the games? Just intentionally forget about that one statement by Logan McPherson. Magically the show will get twice as good, yes?

Not necessarily, even if I judge it only by its own merits I don't think its that great of a show, just OK. The main gimmick of having the people you know and care about shattered like a mirror into multiple pieces of themselves could've been very interesting character writing, with each shard really playing into a aspect of the character's personality. Instead we get wacky stereotypes pretending they're Sonic characters for the most part. The exception of course being New Yoke which seems to have the most effort put in to from any shard. Too bad the Chaos Council suck as villains, (they can't even build their own Metal Sonic) its no wonder the writers had Nine replace them as the main villain.

To balance this out with some more positives. while I don't like this version of Sonic, I do like his voice especially the stuff done on the guy's own time. Hes better than Roger IMO. The animation is good, I appreciate Ian requesting to get Gamma (the pink flicky) into the show and them listening (though they mix him up with the bird's sibling that was with Amy) and if nothing else this show should commended for its depiction of Shadow. Its the best hes been written in awhile.

18 minutes ago, The Swordsman said:

Not necessarily, even if I judge it only by its own merits I don't think its that great of a show, just OK. The main gimmick of having the people you know and care about shattered like a mirror into multiple pieces of themselves could've been very interesting character writing, with each shard really playing into a aspect of the character's personality. Instead we get wacky stereotypes pretending they're Sonic characters for the most part. The exception of course being New Yoke which seems to have the most effort put in to from any shard. Too bad the Chaos Council suck as villains, (they can't even build their own Metal Sonic) its no wonder the writers had Nine replace them as the main villain.

To balance this out with some more positives. while I don't like this version of Sonic, I do like his voice especially the stuff done on the guy's own time. Hes better than Roger IMO. The animation is good, I appreciate Ian requesting to get Gamma (the pink flicky) into the show and them listening (though they mix him up with the bird's sibling that was with Amy) and if nothing else this show should commended for its depiction of Shadow. Its the best hes been written in awhile.

Okay, I can agree with most of the points here.

But that's not what I was arguing against. My point was that Prime being (in theory) canonical to the games has a very small effect on its overall quality.

I absolutely agree it's a flawed show, but the questionable connection to the games is at the very bottom of its problems.