Takashi Iizuka Says It Again: Shadow Will Not Appear in Classic Sonic Games

The point of the classic series is to give the pre-adventure stuff shine, hence the name. It's not an arbitrary mandate. It's an intentional artistic choice.

It's not like Sonic Team has never been particular about who's playable in these games and who isn't before. Shadow wasn't playable in Advance 3, Rush, or Rush Adventure either! Why not? Plenty of opportunity there! Was it mandates then or were they just choosing to highlight certain characters in each game over others?

Well, nice to see they're wanting to keep continuity in mind now.

The whole narrative angle keeping Shadow from appearing in Classic is pretty...flawed. You can just as easily make a narrative reason to explain him there. Really jarring when in the past, they would toss that aside for everything else like the whole Two Worlds thing and Blaze being in the Future as opposed to the Sol Dimension.

It's whatever tho. I'm actually more curious to see how widespread the appeal of a Classic Shadow is to begin with?

My stance: Sonic Superstars is a classic game. Therefore, it takes place in the classic era. Shadow doesn't need to appear in EVERY Sonic game just because people like him. Especially this game, otherwise it would just confuse things. 

As for the two worlds concept, it seems like neither Iizuka or the fanbase understand what it even means. It doesn't refer to the classic/modern era, IT REFERS TO THE CONCEPT FROM SONIC X (minus those exact events and exclusive characters like the perpetually hated Chris Thorndyke). It makes sense for those two words to have been whole at one point, only to be separated by a phenomenon. But since Flynn HATES that idea and condensed "Mobians" (instead of just "Sonic's friends") and human to one single planet/universe, we now need a game set sometime after Unleashed (but before Forces) with a plot device that merges the two "worlds". But as sound as it is from a creative standpoint, it's not necessary as an immediate Sonic title to develop. In the meantime, the best SEGA can do is keep quiet about it the "two worlds" while the fans stop whining about it to avoid any further damage. And that includes anything else having to do with Gerald Robotnik, G.U.N., and the Space Colony Ark prior to Sonic 1 that we don't already know about.

But getting back to Shadow, a what-if art style is not enough reason to throw him into an era he was never part of. Let's save us all that continuity headache. Also, let Fang have his moment to bask in the spotlight again. And let's see what this game has in stored regarding Trip. There's enough in this game without shoehorning in a modern character.

Another reason why this game belongs in the classic era is because we still haven't gotten the second campaign for Sonic Frontiers yet. The cast seem to be set on going on separate journeys away from Sonic (because "character development"), even though SEGA has lied to us before, so placing Superstars as the most recent game would make even less sense. As for this game's placement in the classic era, we can't confirm that yet unless it references Sonic Mania as a recent event.

14 hours ago, castell-neath said:

We need more Shadow...and Silver! Maybe in the next game.

Sure, featuring a Sonic with green eyes and shoe buckles.

5 hours ago, Johnny2071 said:

It makes sense for those two words to have been whole at one point, only to be separated by a phenomenon. But since Flynn HATES that idea and condensed "Mobians" (instead of just "Sonic's friends") and human to one single planet/universe, we now need a game set sometime after Unleashed (but before Forces) with a plot device that merges the two "worlds".

It was never a concept explicitly stated or used in the games; it was only ever an excuse to try to explain away human characters not appearing in games after Unleashed (or at the time, it's probably changing after Frontiers, again). There isn't even any indication it even functions like however Sonic X made them. And to my knowledge, no Sonic Channel material has referenced the idea at all, not even the newer short stories from a couple years ago which put emphasis on Sonic traveling to locations in the Adventure games.

From what I remember, Ian wasn't even aware there was "two worlds" when he had to reboot the Archie universe. IDW appeared to be loosely built on the idea (by virtue of directly following current games), but Sega themselves retconned "two worlds" with their own lore dump video (humans live on the continents, Mobians live on the islands) so it's probably gone from there too if it was ever an actual consideration at all.

There's no need to go back and make up a scenario fusing the worlds together because Sega appears to be ignoring something they weren't even doing in the first place.

2 hours ago, Johnny2071 said:

Sure, featuring a Sonic with green eyes and shoe buckles.

That's exactly what I meant...in the next game (modern). Not classic. I think my original comment didny reflect this. 

7 hours ago, GentlemanX said:

You can look at Ray and go "he wouldn't work in the Modern art style"

I'm sorry, what?

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and look at Blaze and go "she wouldn't work in the Classic art style"

I'm sorry, WHAT?

Mighty AND Ray both have officially made Modern designs already and Blaze's design is already so on point, that you literally just have to shrink her down without changing much else and she fits right into Classic like a glove. People have done it for nearly two decades at this point, either through fanart, fan games or mods of the Classic games or Generations.

Come on, now. Get real. This isn't impossible or even hard. Just make it a fun, optional thing.

I always find this sort of thing interesting, since Sonic Team seems floppy on what can/can't be added retroactively.

Take for example, Amy. Sure she's technically a classic era character since she appeared in one mainline classic game (CD) but even that's being SUPER generous. She appears in that game twice, gets kidnapped at the start and is completely absent until near the very end. She's barely even a footnote in her debut game. And yet, ST has no problem retroactively adding her to Sonic 1/2/3 despite her being a, for all intent and purposes, completely useless character until the Adventure series. You know, what could be deemed as the start of the "Modern" era of Sonic. Same can go for Tails in Sonic 1 and Knuckles in Sonic 1/2/CD, ST seems to care for timeline cohesive except for when they don't.

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against Shadow, honestly I could go either way with him being in a classic game. He'd be a cool bonus to see but much like Tails/Knux/Ray, I wouldn't use him over Sonic after their initial playthrough. Just interesting to see how Sonic Team sometimes cares about stuff like cohesion, then sometimes throws it out the window for the sake of adding something fun to the games. I don't think they even have to redesign him for it, just give him more classic-like proportions like Jango suggested with his Runners appearance.

A part of me hopes they eventually give up and just let the Sonic franchise be whatever the hell it wants to be. If Shadow is suddenly making an appearance as an unlockable character in a classic game, or Mighty/Ray doing the same in a modern game then so be it. This franchise's cohesion is already a mess that is probably beyond repair no matter how many times they retcon. They may as well have fun with it.

6 hours ago, Zaysho said:

It was never a concept explicitly stated or used in the games; it was only ever an excuse to try to explain away human characters not appearing in games after Unleashed (or at the time, it's probably changing after Frontiers, again). There isn't even any indication it even functions like however Sonic X made them. And to my knowledge, no Sonic Channel material has referenced the idea at all, not even the newer short stories from a couple years ago which put emphasis on Sonic traveling to locations in the Adventure games.

From what I remember, Ian wasn't even aware there was "two worlds" when he had to reboot the Archie universe. IDW appeared to be loosely built on the idea (by virtue of directly following current games), but Sega themselves retconned "two worlds" with their own lore dump video (humans live on the continents, Mobians live on the islands) so it's probably gone from there too if it was ever an actual consideration at all.

There's no need to go back and make up a scenario fusing the worlds together because Sega appears to be ignoring something they weren't even doing in the first place.

But it's not like doing so years down the line would break anything either. Of course when making such a hypothetical game, I understand that it needs to have other things going for it than just something as niche as tieing up any contradictions regarding Sonic's geography.

But you know another thing that makes no sense? The existence of Sticks, a character from another continuity who Amy alone (and I guess the rest of the cast) already seem to know, especially in association with Cream. And not once did this character ever get a proper backstory/introduction, aside from a paragraph in a character profile. Maybe associate someone as tribal as Sticks with the lost land of Murasia (the thing that ties into the Space-Time Phenomenon, or TMS' plot device to remove the Sonic cast from human association, and force character development onto Chris Thorndyke).

I know that their two worlds were on the verge of merging, which was considered bad since it would cause time to freeze (in a fictional franchise with a floating timeline just to keep our cast young and marketable), but Sonic has always tackled the improbable and could've triggered a workaround that keeps both the past lore that makes sense and the ongoing presence of humans (so long as they ditch Unleashed's awful art style and proportions for them). Journey of Dreams gives us better-looking humans, and that's not even a Sonic game.

2 hours ago, LegoFedora said:

I always find this sort of thing interesting, since Sonic Team seems floppy on what can/can't be added retroactively.

Take for example, Amy. Sure she's technically a classic era character since she appeared in one mainline classic game (CD) but even that's being SUPER generous. She appears in that game twice, gets kidnapped at the start and is completely absent until near the very end. She's barely even a footnote in her debut game. And yet, ST has no problem retroactively adding her to Sonic 1/2/3 despite her being a, for all intent and purposes, completely useless character until the Adventure series. You know, what could be deemed as the start of the "Modern" era of Sonic. Same can go for Tails in Sonic 1 and Knuckles in Sonic 1/2/CD, ST seems to care for timeline cohesive except for when they don't.

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against Shadow, honestly I could go either way with him being in a classic game. He'd be a cool bonus to see but much like Tails/Knux/Ray, I wouldn't use him over Sonic after their initial playthrough. Just interesting to see how Sonic Team sometimes cares about stuff like cohesion, then sometimes throws it out the window for the sake of adding something fun to the games. I don't think they even have to redesign him for it, just give him more classic-like proportions like Jango suggested with his Runners appearance.

A part of me hopes they eventually give up and just let the Sonic franchise be whatever the hell it wants to be. If Shadow is suddenly making an appearance as an unlockable character in a classic game, or Mighty/Ray doing the same in a modern game then so be it. This franchise's cohesion is already a mess that is probably beyond repair no matter how many times they retcon. They may as well have fun with it.

And let the franchise be a bigger laughing stock that even hardcore fans look away from in embarassment?

As much flak as I'm probably going to get for this, I do not want to see the Sonic franchise become some zany Looney Tunes-esque universe on par with that of Crash Bandicoot (and other western cartoon IPs that pander to young children).

Ever watch any of Toonami's interstitials during the nineties/early 2000s or play games like Ape Escape and Klonoa? The cool vibe that the Adventure series/Dreamcast era resonated put franchise up there with those.

And if you don't get how Sonic is a perfect match with Toonami, I suggest you give this video a watch:

The quality isn't that great, but it was 12 years ago. And I'd rather have that over something like this: 

Or this:

I'm fine with the two being separate. I like that obscure characters are getting a chance to appear again. Mania brought back Fang, Bean and Bark through cameos, Mania Plus brought back Mighty and Ray and Origins Plus had classic Amy playable in a platformer for the first time.

If modern characters were allowed to fill the roster, the obscure characters never would've made the cut.

This probably wouldn't sting so much for others if they still made modern side scrollers like the Advance series and Rush. I know we shit on Dimps for Sonic 4 but they also developed some excellent Sonic titles on handhelds. Stuff like the boost and trick system make more sense in the modern style and fit characters like Blaze and Shadow better.

That's what I think anyway.

9 hours ago, Waveshocker Sigma said:

Mighty AND Ray both have officially made Modern designs already and Blaze's design is already so on point, that you literally just have to shrink her down without changing much else and she fits right into Classic like a glove. People have done it for nearly two decades at this point, either through fanart, fan games or mods of the Classic games or Generations.

Come on, now. Get real. This isn't impossible or even hard. Just make it a fun, optional thing.

Did... did you not read my full post? I specifically mentioned both Archie Ray and fan art of Blaze. I'm in agreement they'd work in each other's style. My point was that something like art conformity is more subjective which is a stronger argument in this line of discussion than art style determining canonicity. I was explaining how someone else could come to a different conclusion than my own.

Gonna have to apologize in advance as the quote button still isn't appearing for me. (this will also be my replies to page one, so it is a mix of replies I'm referring to)

@GentlemanX

SEGA and Sonic Team did not come to the decision to make the Classic design wily nilly. As you mentioned and seen in both SA1 and Heroes multiple classic games were already stated and in the case of CD shown to have taken place in the past. Furthermore comparing the designs, aside from eye color, each of the modern designs do match the idea that the cast had gotten older naturally. Its rather a genius move from a story telling perspective.

@Blue Blood

Because continuity means things matter, that there is growth. The things you list as positives for not having one are the exact reasons I could never get into Mario. Its no coincidence that other Sonic media that follow suit like SatAM, Archie Comics, IDW, etc. are very successful. I also have to disagree that the timeline was ever floaty for the most part it was rather clear with the main series where the games took place in relation to each other, with the only unknown factor at the time being CD's placement. Its also a misconception to think the Classic series was light on lore and story telling, which is mostly the fault of the American and European branch of SEGA. The original manuals are chalk full off not only interesting lore and story tidbits but also even foreshadowing. (like Chaos is hinted at far before SA1's release) You can even see SEGA's storytelling ambition despite being limited starting with 2 and shining with 3. To your actual contention the problem is if you give the mouse that cookie it will not be stasified. It will open the door, even if it's a crack and people will use it as precedent to have Classic Shadow canonically appear due to also not caring about the continuity.

Onto Part 2! (Thank God for the @ feature)

@CrownSlayer’s Shadow

The Two Worlds thing itself was either a retcon or misunderstanding, (so 2 cultures instead of actual literal worlds) originally the continuity was like how it is now. (You can especially see this in the Adventure era, though also in Sonic' Jam's Man of the Year short)

Okay my take: Classic Sonic is younger Sonic, this is no longer just "16 bits Sonic" (in fact the game is not in sprites) and the classic games have a different vibe to them than the modern ones, Classic is set in the past, it's the only way to avoid "different universes" line from Forces.

Shadow should not be in a classic game for a variety of reasons: he is still in the pod continuity-wise, Shadow is not in Frontiers either, he does not need to appear everywhere in general, maybe I would do a Sonic skin with Shadow's colors in Superstars, that's about it.

It should not even need to be said, but Shadow is so popular people want him everywhere, I know that...

As for Classic characters in Modern games: that's different, IMO they should appear, let Mighty and Ray in a modern game, otherwise, what happened to them? 

Shadow can't appear in the classics because he was hybernated in a tube at the time.

Knuckles can't appear in Sonic 1, 2 and CD because he was still on Angel Island and didn't know Sonic yet.

What's the difference? Except that Knuckles is now playable in all those games, while Shadow can't because of artstyle.

I think this is just stupid.

(I don't even care much of Shadow specifically... I just care that I prefer 2D Sonic over 3D Sonic, and now 2D Sonic can't have modern characters for some stupid reason).

I mean, if ya push hard enough for it, they could come around.

It’s happened before.

On 8/3/2023 at 7:33 PM, sonicclaasic said:

I've been reading this myself last night about Shadow being In classic Sonic games. Well there's your answer Takashi Iizuka officially stated Shadow won't be In classic Sonic games they can stop asking him the same questions now.

Takashi Iizuka must be tired and frustrated keep getting the same questions about Shadow being In the classic Sonic games hopefully there should be no more asking the same questions about It now.

 

I consider these tired questions as punishment for him making lackluster Sonic games his entire career. Keep asking them, boys!

As others have noted the timeline isn't really an obstacle to Shadow appearing in the 2D games. If the timeline was really the issue then Tails, Knuckles, and Amy wouldn't be playable in each of the classic games in Origins. That said, I think what Iizuka said does actually reveal why Shadow isn't going to be in Superstars.

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"Shadow is from the Modern series of characters and gameplay that we have introduced," Iizuka says. "The Classic series exists before the Modern series, so they haven't met at that time. There's no relationship, so we won't be bringing Shadow into the Classic series." 

I don't want to relitigate arguments about momentum or eye color or whatever, but the 3D games of the 2000s really did deviate from what made Sonic Sonic back on the Genesis. This was never Sonic Team's intention, but what Iizuka is saying is that they are finally recognizing that reality. Going forward they plan to treat Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic as different series, similar to how Capcom treats Mega Man Classic/X/Legends/Battle Network/etc as different series. Shadow isn't being restricted from appearing in the Classic series, he is being reserved for the Modern series. Sonic Adventure 2 is the iconic Modern character game, and Shadow is the iconic Modern character. Even though Shadow hasn't gotten much use post-06 he still very much lives on in the public conscious as one of the best loved aspects of the 3D Sonic games. Just as the public has expectations for how a 2D Sonic game should play, the public also has expectations for what any game featuring Shadow should be like. That means Shadow is going to be "stuck" only appearing in 3D games going forward.

Now don't get me wrong, it's BS that we've reached this point, but this is where the Sonic IP is right now. And given the extreme conservatism of how IPs are managed in modern pop culture, that's probably how things are going to be for awhile.