How did you see Knuckles before SA?

[Chaosish]

I don't think any portrayal of Knuckles has fit my perception of him during the Sonic 3 era. I saw him as a devious trickster. In Sonic Adventure, they made him serious. Later on, they turned him into some hotheaded buffoon? I'm still waiting for Knuckles to return to his roots. All the core elements of his personality through his sprite animations. He IS a bit goofy, but he still manages to one-up Sonic at nearly every step of the way. He has a serious side, but only when things get critical. Someone had a 'derp' moment when they decided that just because Knuckles was gullible, it meant he was stupid. If anything, his being tricked by Eggman makes him fit even more into the trickster archetype (tricksters in myth and stuff get tricked and have been somewhat gullible, right? Loki, Anansi, etc.) Maybe he's a bit like Spider Man?

In the grand scheme of things, I see SONIC as the serious character with the no-nonsense, no time-wasting attitude.

[Xenos]

Although I agree Knuckles could use some re-tooling, I never saw Sonic as the serious "Take shit from NO ONE." kind of character.

To me, Sonic was always the blue dude with a 'tude. Be it the Classic games or the games of today. I could never look at that confident face and say, "He takes all of his issues seriously." I always thought hard times were a fun challenge to him, because rather then see it as bleak with little to no chance to prevail, he always thinks everything would be alright in the end. But when the time comes, he does get deadly serious. (Such as the final battle with Dark Gaia in Sonic Unleashed.) But other then that, he's always been the confident, cocky hero to me.

Back to Knuckles, I believe it was a better idea to make Knuckles a serious loner, that was a bit gullible at times, the way Sonic Adventure did it. It made sense, because Knuckles lived mostly alone. Forced Destined to stay on an island for the rest of his life, guarding the Powerful gem the Master Emerald. Since he was alone as I said before, he wouldn't be very good at socializing. So he was easy to talk into something. But lately Sega has been playing up a bit too much on the gullible side of him, making him a bit of a meathead at times. I also think Knuckles should be intelligent in mythology and mystic legends, etc. Although this did happen in Sonic Riders ZG. Before they went to Gigan Rocks.

Overall I think Knux needs a bit more attention too his character development.

[Scott]

I always saw Sonic as a serious guy too, I mean if you stare at his face on his running animation in Sonic 1, CD and 2 you can see it, it's stronger on Sonic 2's though, and the similar expression on his picture on Sonic Drift 2 ( i think ).

I always saw Knuckles as more of a threat than Robotnik, and when given the chance to play as him, I woulda always taken it, when they started making his character into a giant joke, I never enjoyed playing as him when forced to (SA2:B, S06) and I avoided other chances...

[Gaming Misfit]

I've seen this same issue occuring for almost all the classic Genesis characters.

Sonic- Sonic was the cool, impatient dude who would tap his foot at you as if saying "Hurry up". He was always in a rush, but laid back and just in general cool.

Tails- Sonic's loyal sidekick. Tails has actually improved since they've kept his personality and just built on it. So no issues with him for me.

Knux- Knux is a big one. He seems to constantly have a new personality. In Sonic 3 he was a trickster. He would cause problems for Sonic and be a pain. He also had a serious side when things became an issue, but he preferred to keep out of side with that personality. An example of us seeing that is when he and Sonic learned the truth and had to go after Robotnik. I like that personality of Knux the best. In the Saturn, we saw no personality in any of the characters, so meh. Dreamcast, he became a friend of Sonic, which is fine, but he also had a new attitude, which I still don't like as much as the "Original Prankster" (See what I did there?!) that ran his personality. Now, after Sonic X he's become a hot headed loud mouth. I hope they return to Knux being a trouble maker. Not necessarily for Sonic, but maybe for Egghead or something.

Amy- She's annoying. Which is kind of the idea. And although this MAY sound kind of sexist, I prefer Amy as a damsel in distress. Not to be sexist, but I just do.

Metal Sonic- No more making him a giant robot god monster thing, and don't make him so evil, just make it his goal to beat Sonic. And I want to see these two fight some more! Enough with Shadow! Give us some Metal Sonic! He's a better rival with more potential than that unoriginal recolor! (No offense to Shadow fans)

Shadow- I never liked Shadow much. He was okay, but I never had much concern for him. I think if they lighten him up a bit, and make him less of a overdramatic killjoy, not making him like Sonic, but just with a sense of humor other than shooting innocent people. I would also like for him to make up his mind if he's a hero or villain.

/end rant

[Chaosish]

To be honest, I'm not sure I even like Knuckles as a loner. He's seen relaxing with Mushroom Hill Zone animals. If anything, he's like an eccentric cat lady.

Well, I mean -- if he is a loner, he isn't the 'reclusive hermit' type, although his spines seem to be made for the purpose of blowing in the wind ans he stands on the end of the island brooding about his purpose. I think it's important that he's 'stationary' to contrast against Sonic though.

On the other hand, Knuckles's 'change of personality' almost makes sense in post Sonic 3. The Angel Island is his turf, but in an unfamiliar world he's not going to be nearly as confident or cocky, or won't hit it off with other characters. They could have crafted his character development around this, but it was accidental on Sega's part. Meeting Sonic and Tails and Eggman would probably have triggered a need in Knuckles to NOT attach himself to the Master Emerald and do other things.

[Mick]

Believe it or not, I was a big fan of Knuckles in the beginning. In fact, he was my favorite character at the time. When I first saw in Sonic 3, I wished I played as him. I finally got my wish and played as him in S&K. That was really exciting for me back in the day. As for Knuckles in SA and beyond... eh, Sonic fell off my radar during that era. I didn't really got back into Sonic until 2006-2008. From what I've seen in more recent games with Knuckles, he's not my favorite character anymore, yet he's still cool as ever. His personality and stuff is different, but I still like the character. I have yet to play SA and other Sonic games. Remember I've only played the first few Sonic games, Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Colours. Sad, isn't it?

Well hopefully in the future I'll get an opportunity to play the other Sonic games. Anyway, I'm sure I'd like Knuckles in those games. I never got why he got so much heat from the fanbase, I personally think he's badass.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Foxboy Mick

[Sean]

What a douchebag.

[Old dead account]

Never once saw him as a treasure hunter that's for sure. And it should've stayed that way.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Metal Sonic- No more making him a giant robot god monster thing, and don't make him so evil, just make it his goal to beat Sonic. And I want to see these two fight some more! Enough with Shadow! Give us some Metal Sonic! He's a better rival with more potential than that unoriginal recolor! (No offense to Shadow fans)

Edited July 3, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[azoo]

Before SA (and because of playing S3K & watching the OVA), I was given the impression that he was indeed a trickster, but only in the spirit that he's trying to protect his turf. He took care of Angel Island and made sure the emeralds weren't tampered with, and that was done by holding the Master Emerald in the Hidden Palace, which was blockaded by the dangerous depths of the Lava Reef Zone; and the only way you can get in is if you follow Knuckles (which Eggman did, and Sonic & Tails followed Eggman there as well). Otherwise, while not spending time at the Hidden Palace, I see Knuckles as a guy who enjoys nature and chills all around certain places on the island. When he's bored of that, he follows his favorite past time, puts on his hat and goes treasure hunting across different landmasses.

After SA, I got the impression that he's a guy that sits by a rock all day on a shrine out in the flippin' open. Doesn't sound as exciting or as fun as before. He's still an interesting character though, I'll give him that; and I hope he can be made to be more versatile like I originally imagined him to be.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Azukara

[dirupti]

I always thought of him as a "know it all idiot" if you know what I mean. I figured he'd be great with technology and things like that, but I figured he was, socially stupid. I thought he'd knew a ton about math, science, and the works but none about people, and their psychology and things like that.

Why?

Well I thought he must be smart with science and technology for 2 reasons.

1. Robotnik recruited him.

2. He presses those buttons like a grade A mechanic!

I thought he'd be socially stupid because well, he trusted the doc.

As to Sonic being the serious character. I never thought of it like that, everyone knows Big is the serious character! =P

[Pawn]

I wouldn't apply the Trickster archetype to Knuckles. Tricksters, by their nature, aren't typically tied down and they tend to mess with whatever the established order happens to be. Knuckles himself has an established order to things, he is strict in himself in that he is tied down to his duty. He's the immovable object to Sonic's unstoppable force. Knuckles wasn't jumping in simply to cause trouble for Sonic so much as defending his home from what he believed to be an invading force. I can see where you're coming from though. His laughter in the classics alludes to a prankster nature but I guess with introduction of dialogue and regular cutscenes, the characters needed more appropriate personality traits. Being alone as long as you can remember, why would you ever develop that nature? Maybe we're reading too much into this laughter and it was simply a method of intimidation.

As for the whole treasure hunting thing, that doesn't make much sense. He's stuck on a relatively small floating island. He pretty much owns the most valuable treasure in his world. Speaking of which, why doesn't Robotnik snag it again? It has control over the bloody Chaos Emeralds for heaven's sake.

Oh yeah, the whole Shadow vs Metal Sonic thing: I don't see how MS is any more credible post Dreamcast either. His appearance in Heroes was pretty awful: wearing a cape, literally copying elements of other characters and transforming into that mess in the final battle. I think both he and Shadow just need to return to what made them appealing in the first place. Calling Shadow a recolour seems somewhat redundant as well, since he's meant to look like Sonic to the point of them being mistaken for each other.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Lungo

[DC111]

Knuckles was in his element on Angel Island, so of course he would know what to do to slow down Sonic and Tails. I don't think this makes him a devious trickster overall, just when he's on familiar ground. He knows Angel Island like the back of his hand. Aside from that, I've always seen him as somewhat serious, mostly due to having to live a quite restricted life and holding himself to responsibility all the time. Sonic contrasts this, being so free all the time without a second thought, which I think is an underlying reason for their rivalry even if it's never said outright. I didn't like what they did with him in Sonic 2006, like clumsily dropping that hologram card (?) when Sonic tossed it to him, and landing on his head when they fell into the future. Throughout the classics and the Adventures, all the way up until that point really, I had seen Knuckles as someone who has a lot of dignity, and Sonic 2006 just didn't do him justice. If nothing else, though, I'm glad they used more situational elements for the 'humor' he was supposed to contribute to that game, instead of warping his personality to contribute to humor. It could've been worse.

As far as Sonic being serious... I know this isn't the topic for it, but it was mentioned and I've actually been waiting for an opportunity to say something about this. I was playing SA for the first time in a long time the other day, and it refreshed my memory on how unusually serious he was in that game. He still had that confident, determined 'basis' if you will, and still had attitude, but he wasn't nearly as relaxed about the situation as he is in more recent games. He got irritated easily in SA, and was REALLY uptight about Amy. If you read the monologues, he goes on about how he has to protect her and implies the reason he doesn't like when she's around is because he's worried she'll get hurt (and seems more stressed about it than in more recent games). Since SA took place soon after the classics, this leads me to believe he would have had a somewhat more no-nonsense attitude in those games, too. Again it's never said explicitly, but the way I think of it is that NO one is as easygoing about something when they're first starting, and Sonic probably saw Eggman as a much greater threat back then (classics through SA-ish time period) than he does in more recent games. He came off as more serious because he wasn't as accustomed to fighting Eggman all the time and didn't know what to expect, so was probably more tense. Of course, time went on and stopping evil kind of became a lifestyle, and he came to genuinely love the challenge... hence his relaxed upbeat attitude in more recent games like Unleashed, the Storybook series, and Colors.

Edited July 3, 2011 by DC111

[Diogenes]

FYI, that's what an anti-hero is suppose to be, a person who is neither a true hero nor a complete villain and doesn't make up his mind which one he is. So he would willingly help you as much as he would try to kill you (as in he wouldn't need to be tricked to do so) so long as it suits whatever interests he has.

I don't think that's quite accurate. For the most part antiheroes are "good guys", but not nice guys. They don't just flip-flop between hero and villain; they usually have a pretty consistent morality, but their actions are questionable, in an "ends justify the means" sort of way.

[Tatsumaki]

The Punisher being an example of an anti-hero.

[a bean]

Given that my only exposure to Knuckles before SA was in Sonic and Knuckles...it really didn't change. It always seemed to me that he was a hot-headed loner up for a fight, and the only thing stuff after that added to that was gullibility (Sonic 3 constitutes as after).

[Chaosish]

I wouldn't apply the Trickster archetype to Knuckles. Tricksters, by their nature, aren't typically tied down and they tend to mess with whatever the established order happens to be. Knuckles himself has an established order to things, he is strict in himself in that he is tied down to his duty. He's the immovable object to Sonic's unstoppable force. Knuckles wasn't jumping in simply to cause trouble for Sonic so much as defending his home from what he believed to be an invading force. I can see where you're coming from though. His laughter in the classics alludes to a prankster nature but I guess with introduction of dialogue and regular cutscenes, the characters needed more appropriate personality traits. Being alone as long as you can remember, why would you ever develop that nature? Maybe we're reading too much into this laughter and it was simply a method of intimidation.

The trickster archetype, as I understand it, is a broad definition. You have trickster gods like Hermes who are also tied down to a duty. Knuckles has so many contradictions (being goofy and a prankster vs the protector of the sacred master emerald) that it makes him even more of a trickster. Also, his opening cutscene in the Angel Island Zone subverts the whole status quo of Sonic being the 'cool one'. And he shifts roles, of course.

The problem is though, the Sonic 3 manual seems to paint a picture of the buffoon Knuckles we see after SA2:

The guardian who protects the Chaos Emeralds on the Floating Island.

Species is Echidna (Harimogura). Nickname is "Knuckle."

He is the short-tempered type, but he is a kind and nice guy.

He's a bit naive and innocent, and easily deceived.

He doesn't dislike girls, but he is not very good with them?

Special gloves let him dig holes, and he can break through walls.

His hobby is, of course, digging. 'cuz he's a mole (Mogura).

Finding secret routes is his specialty.

He can also fly in the air for a little bit.

Likes: Fruit. Dislikes: Bright sunlight

Only his encounter with Eggman in the Hidden Palace suggested a short-tempered personality. Knuckles' default expression is a grin while Sonic looks angry all the time. And Knuckles defeats Eggrobo by tricking him.

Okay, looking too far into it.

P.S I don't understand how you could see Knuckles as a serious loner character BEFORE SA, when he's always laughing/smiling and shown chilling out with animals?

Edited July 3, 2011 by Chaosish

[Pawn]

The trickster archetype, as I understand it, is a broad definition. You have trickster gods like Hermes who are also tied down to a duty. Knuckles has so many contradictions (being goofy and a prankster vs the protector of the sacred master emerald) that it makes him even more of a trickster. Also, his opening cutscene in the Angel Island Zone subverts the whole status quo of Sonic being the 'cool one'. And he shifts roles, of course.

Fair points.

P.S I don't understand how you could see Knuckles as a serious loner character BEFORE SA, when he's always laughing/smiling and shown chilling out with animals?

I guess because they are just normal animals rather than actual anthropomorphic companions. To be honest as a kid I always thought his smile was odd. It didn't actually feel right to me, despite there being little information as to why he shouldn't be smiling.

[#EndyGate]

A bloody trollface

[Gaming Misfit]

Oh no, that was definitely offensive, especially when you consider that Shadow has done everything Metal did and MORE as a character and rival to Sonic. That's not to say everything Shadow did was good to his character (his own game coming to mind), but considering how before and after Heroes Shadow did more than just kidnap someone, race the main hero, and spend the rest of the time unseen until SA1 where he was in a stasis tube, that says a lot on who has the potential and who was the one to unleash it.

And Metal had PLENTY of time to unleash that potential before Shadow was even on the drawing board. Him being a better rival when he done the least out of every recurring character in this series couldn't be seen as anything less than fanboyism. I'd go so far as to say Big the Cat of all characters has done more than him.

By the way, Metal Sonic is meant to be as evil as his maker, since he was created by Eggman in the first place to destroy the person he was based on. Don't get me wrong, I love Metal Sonic because I agree in that he has a lot of potential, but I'm not giving him any credit as a character until he earns it like every other one of them before and after him. He's not a better anything until he actually shows it, which in all these games he could've been present in he has yet to do so. I'd say that's the developer's fault than anything.

FYI, that's what an anti-hero is suppose to be, a person who is neither a true hero nor a complete villain and doesn't make up his mind which one he is. So he would willingly help you as much as he would try to kill you (as in he wouldn't need to be tricked to do so) so long as it suits whatever interests he has.

As for Knuckles, before SA2 he was among my favorites mainly because he can reach just about any surface with little problems. As a character, he was really good, he may have been tricked twice, but he was still Knuckles doing his own thing before helping out his friends. He had a sense of purpose, although it was mostly about keeping the Master Emerald protected, but still it gave him a reason to be who he is.

In the Classics the bastard was a cunning little asshole who would block your path when you try to progress, only for you to bypass most of his traps by surviving whatever he threw at you. He was annoying, which was the point of part of his character. Nowadays, Sonic Team feels a need to throw him in just to complete the supposed "Classic" Trio a lot of people claim to be important and don't seem to care whether he is necessary or not as a character when he could either do more or stay out completely if he's doing less even as a supporting character. Hopefully that'll change and he get's back to what he was originally doing, or if they can become creative of it, find a way to make him more useful and somehow be more able to join the heroes without a number of the audience wondering what he's doing away from the Master Emerald. I've found plenty of ways they could do this, I'm sure the writer's could find other creative ways as well

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think that's quite accurate. For the most part antiheroes are "good guys", but not nice guys. They don't just flip-flop between hero and villain; they usually have a pretty consistent morality, but their actions are questionable, in an "ends justify the means" sort of way.

Edited July 4, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[batson]

Im usually up for a good ol' Metal Sonic VS Shadow debate but i think im gonna stay out of this one. The thread starter didn't intend for that kind of debate here after all.

So anyway, my own perception of Knux prior to SA was pretty much just that he was badass, plain and simple. But i dont think i gave to much thought about his personality at all to be honest. When you're a kid, you often pay just as much or more attention to what a character looks like and what he can do than to his personality. And Knuckles of course looked kinda similar to Sonic but more athletic and with uber-cool boxing gloves with spikes on them, and was able to both glide, climb and run straight through mountain walls. You could say that if Sonic was indeed "way past cool", then Knuckles had already ran the whole distance around the planet and ended up right next to the cool-sign again. Yep, that's how cool he was. So naturally, the prepubescent me had a huge boner for the character (you know, figuratively speaking).

(On a side note, i can say that even though i personally never cared much for Shadow, i can totally see why the kid's who grew up with SA2 made such a big deal out of him, since i imagine he must have had pretty much the same effect on them that Knux had on me, what with his hover skates and chaos spears and whatnot.)

[Gaming Misfit]

Ugh stupid triple post. Hate it when that happens. One sec.

Depends on the Anti-hero. Shadow hasn't exactly been too consistent as a general good guy as his evil acts are as numerous as his good ones, and is the very character who has flip-flop between hero and villain with an inconsistent morality. It's usually at the last possible moment when he's playing the villian does he flip towards the act of heroism after he realizes he was wrong at some point (although given his own game, that only mucks up his portrayal as a hero or villain).

I guess it all depends on where they're going to take the character next, but while he's recently been a hero since Sonic 06, it hasn't always been very consistent.

Umm, first, you might wanna get a mod to delete your triple posts. Sucks that it takes a while to make a post and you wind up making extra's because you didn't think it got through or because there was an error.

Second, I read and I quote "He's a better rival with more potential than that unoriginal recolor!" You may have meant know ill-will (I probably should have added emoticon to make it sound less hostile than intended, but the damage has already been done), but dude watch how you word things the next time you aim for a different meaning. Luckily this isn't the forum to get overly bitchy, but wording things wrong is an easy way to bring in hostilities. I won't say that it's an easy thing to do because I suffer from that sometimes, but it would help if you were more aware of who is going to pick it up and plenty of people have the balls to confront you head on for this and are blunt as hell to boot.

I would too, but this it doesn't have to be something as black and white as to keep him as one or the other. The whole point of the character is to be the grey area between them, as he'll do heroic acts, evil acts, questionable acts, or whatever as he's not above whatever gets him what he's interested in. He's not like Sonic and the other heroes who will always strive for benevolence, and he's not like Eggman or other villain who are mostly malevolent.

Well, here's some advice: either learn to take the heat or get out of the kitchen. If I feel I have something to say about it, rest assured I'm going to say something whether you want me to or not and I'll do so without hesitation. You can either stop posting and feel relieve that no one like me is confronting you about this, or you can toughen up and find the guts to debate with me on the subject.

It wouldn't bother me one bit if you did the same to me. In fact, I would actually encourage you to do the same. Just don't expect me to go easy on you.

[TheDanimator]

When I think about it, I like the way he was portrayed in Sonic the Movie and Sonic underground the best.

"I hate underground but I like knuckles portrayol in underground"

[Kuzu]

I thought he was the biggest asshole ever, and kicking his ass in Hidden Palace felt so right.

As for his personality, I generally prefer his post-sa1 one, if only because he makes a great contrast to Sonic's Daredevil attitude, being the more practical minded.

If anything, Sonic being serious never clicked with me because he really doesn't look like the guy who would take anything seriously unless it mattered, this is obvious from his early animations; If anything he was more impatient than serious.

The contrast with Sonic & Knuckles I'd like to see is:

Sonic values pleasure, hedonism, and his own needs above anyone else`s, and won't let anyone get in the way of his excitement.

Knuckles values responsibility, and has a strong sense of duty, he knows buisness comes before pleasure and will try to enforce it to Sonic, which of course leads to arguments between the two.

That's just my view on the matter.

As for the Metal vs. Shadow thing, let's open another topic for that.