Has Knuckles become too dumb?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

This doesn't refute my point that having him not show up is the easiest way to silence the most people.

Edited March 18, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Plus I'm just plain tired of the complaining and I think him not showing up at all is the easiest way to silence the most people.

[Kuzu]

So this is degenrated into ANOTHER Knuckles/M.E. topic? Ok I'm game.

I posted this on the Sega Forums, may as well just drop it here:

I have plenty of imagination, if I didn't have any, I wouldn't be in this series. But like I said, I can think of a million plots where every character can fit, but in Knuckles` case he has a prior engagement, and it doesn't involve leaving the island to stop the latest Big Bad. I have no problem with Knux leaving the island, but would he really leave it just to team up with Sonic? I can understand if the plot directly involved him, like if the current villain or Eggman provoked him into getting off, and then him teaming up with Sonic seems more likely, but just for him to leave and leave it to someone else just so he can be a part of the action seems even more shallow than shoehorning him like before.

@CSS: I think retconning Chronicles would be pushing it, because the game ended on a cliff hanger, so to retcon it, you would have to rewrite the whole story almost.

[1991sealedquality]

Eggman always tricks him.

[Diogenes]

I have no problem with Knux leaving the island, but would he really leave it just to team up with Sonic?

Yes! They are friends and allies, so it makes perfect sense for one to come help the other, if he needs it. This is basically what happened in Heroes, after all, the only problem being that they never actually explain it (well, and that they did the same thing in most games for the next few years).

Plus you can honestly argue that anything Eggman does is an indirect threat to the emerald/island; if Sonic fails, and Eggman takes over the world, he's probably not going to leave the island with the massive power source and the other spiky pest alone.

@CSS: I think retconning Chronicles would be pushing it, because the game ended on a cliff hanger, so to retcon it, you would have to rewrite the whole story almost.

You'd really only have to cut out the cliffhanger twist, wouldn't you?

[Kuzu]

Yes! They are friends and allies, so it makes perfect sense for one to come help the other, if he needs it. This is basically what happened in Heroes, after all, the only problem being that they never actually explain it (well, and that they did the same thing in most games for the next few years).

Plus you can honestly argue that anything Eggman does is an indirect threat to the emerald/island; if Sonic fails, and Eggman takes over the world, he's probably not going to leave the island with the massive power source and the other spiky pest alone.

We know they're friends, but if Knux knows he can count on Sonic, why would he leave? If Sonic DID fall then Knux would get involved.

You'd really only have to cut out the cliffhanger twist, wouldn't you?

And how all the Echidnas ended up in Sonic's world.

[Diogenes]

We know they're friends, but if Knux knows he can count on Sonic, why would he leave? If Sonic DID fall then Knux would get involved.

Both of them going up against Eggman is more likely to succeed than going separately.

And how all the Echidnas ended up in Sonic's world.

Hm, well, I would probably do that as new content rather than retconning, though either could work.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

@CSS: I think retconning Chronicles would be pushing it, because the game ended on a cliff hanger, so to retcon it, you would have to rewrite the whole story almost.

That's pretty much what I'm advocating.

Besides, there's not really too much to work from scratch with. There would just be certain alterations from how Chroncles did it, however many necessary to make it fit snuggly within the current canon. There's not really much about it that would he pushing it unless you just flat out don't like the idea.

[Mangoaxe5]

I think that it's clear that Sega has no idea what to do with Knuckles(or any of the Sonic characters)anymore. I think that Sega needs to rethink how they use there characters.

Storywise there are serverl games that storywise made no sense for Knuckles to be in. There was no real reason why Knuckles had to be in Sonic Heroes. The only reason why Knuckles was in Sonic Heroes was because he is a popular character. And there really was no reason storywise for him to be in Sonic 2006.

As much as I hate how Sonic is the only playable character in the recent Sonic games, I do hope that some good can come of it. Hopefully by the time Knuckles is playable again in a Sonic game, he'll be better then ever.

[Kuzu]

I think that it's clear that Sega has no idea what to do with Knuckles(or any of the Sonic characters)anymore. I think that Sega needs to rethink how they use there characters.

Storywise there are serverl games that storywise made no sense for Knuckles to be in. There was no real reason why Knuckles had to be in Sonic Heroes. The only reason why Knuckles was in Sonic Heroes was because he is a popular character. And there really was no reason storywise for him to be in Sonic 2006.

As much as I hate how Sonic is the only playable character in the recent Sonic games, I do hope that some good can come of it. Hopefully by the time Knuckles is playable again in a Sonic game, he'll be better then ever.

Unleashed & Colors, whether you liked them or not, we're two of the best games to come out in the last decade, and Sonic was the only playable in each.

[DarkLight]

Not to mention it seems Sonic Team has become more careful not to shoe-horn every character possible for no specified reason or explanation why each character is in the game.

[Unholy Sonic]

It's true that the latest 2 Sonic games on consol were very satisfying for most of us but... you know, there are always some people who are gonna find the tinyest of defaults in a game and try to make it look big to flame and bash the game.

It's common law and natural as human beings.

Oh well.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Unholy Sønic

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I just recently had an interesting (insane) somersault of imagination as to how Knuckles could get involved. And it involves the Master Emerald...but there are several problems that make this unbelievably crazy as hell:

• The biggest being that it comes off as similar to Sonic 06's plot with time traveling (without Elise)
  
• Although it could be wonderful if done right, it's more complex than SA2
  
• Knuckles is an unintentional villian in the plot tag teaming with Shadow
  
• One part in the idea had Shadow send a few of the heroes across dimensions just to be a dick
  
  • To give you an idea of this. Shadow outright says he'll do it to be an asshole and for amusement (minus mentioning the "asshole")
    
  • Doing this brings Silver and Blaze in as a result to hopefully side-step this coming across as shoe-horning
    
  • In bringing Silver into the plot, the Shadow and Knuckles decide that you can never have too much of a good thing and infect Silver into their ranks)
    

  [*]Eggman becomes a hero (only to become an even BIGGER bad further in the plot)

  [*]The plot is long as hell, to the point that it could span several game titles

...what? I told you it was a crazy idea.

The idea was to have Knuckles and Shadow try to avert some problem that occurs using the Master Emerald's power. At some point, Shadow becomes overwhelmed and somewhat corrupted from the energy only to transform into a demi-god stronger than your usual Superform. So he goes on a rampage and then decides "you know what, it would be so cool if Knuckles could do this since he was near the ME" and gets Knuckles on his side...and well...

Yeah, the idea is quite a lot. Good thing I outlined the problems beforehand, cuz chances of you guys taking a positive look on that are slim.

But look on the bright side: it doesn't create any new characters!

Seriously, don't ask what made me come up with this (unless you really want the truth). I was looking for a really big option to take advantage of to have Knuckles around, and yeah I know it's not something you'd think is a good idea. At least I was brainstorming in the first place.

But admit it tho, it sounds like a good idea for fanfiction.

Edited March 24, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

But admit it tho, it sounds like a good idea for fanfiction.

Nnnno, I'd say it's bad even for that. It seems convoluted and arbitrary.

[Dr. Crusher]

But admit it tho, it sounds like a good idea for fanfiction.

............

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Nnnno, I'd say it's bad even for that. It seems convoluted and arbitrary.

Even compared to pther fanfics?

Meh, i tried...

Then again, I did say it was crazy.

EDIT: On second thought, maybe I should try it out and see how far I can take in and get reactions then. I'm not going to let the idea go to waste without testing it...

Edited March 25, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Dr. Crusher]

I'll give a few of my own reasons for why this sounds a little too much like traditional Sonic fanfiction for my tastes.

• The biggest being that it comes off as similar to Sonic 06's plot with time traveling (without Elise)
  
  Already potentially doomed. Time travel is just one of those plot devices that require extra extra caution.
  
  
• Although it could be wonderful if done right, it's more complex than SA2
  
  This one's more on opinion. While some would appreciate it since SA2 was the one complex plot that was "good", there'll be others that wouldn't be fond of the similarities. (Eg: me lol.)
  
  
• One part in the idea had Shadow send a few of the heroes across dimensions just to be a dick
  
  • To give you an idea of this. Shadow outright says he'll do it to be an asshole and for amusement (minus mentioning the "asshole")
    
    That sounds like the worst kind of the For The Evulz villain to me. This "corruption", regardless of whether it thinks of itself as "evil" or not, has to maintain a point for why it's posessing the characters, what it wants to do, etc etc. There needs to be a backstory and motivation for this Master Emerald-powered virus, even if it's not necessarily a character/villain itself.
    
    
  • Doing this brings Silver and Blaze in as a result to hopefully side-step this coming across as shoe-horning
    
    If you ask me, that sounds exactly like shoehorning.
    
    
  • In bringing Silver into the plot, the Shadow and Knuckles decide that you can never have too much of a good thing and infect Silver into their ranks)
    
    ...Why? There doesn't appear to be any logical reason for Evil-Shadow and Evil-Knuckles to want an Evil-Silver beyond being EVIIIIL. And why Silver in particular? Just because of his powers?
    
    

  [*]Eggman becomes a hero

  WHAT THE FUCK IS THI-

  (only to become an even BIGGER bad further in the plot)

  ...oh, right. Cool stuff. But that "further" better be soon. Rururu.

  [*]The plot is long as hell, to the point that it could span several game titles

  Personally, Sonic 2-S3&K/SA2-ShtH "arcs" aside, I don't think Sonic's the kind of series to have that specific kind of ongoing plotlines. Sonic may be more plot-heavy than the likes of Mario, and that's all very well, but he's still a cartoony hedgehog in the long run. It's hardly going to reach Metal Gear Solid levels.

The idea was to have Knuckles and Shadow try to avert some problem that occurs using the Master Emerald's power.

There would be consequences to this kind of setup - such as trying not to make whatever "problem" it is instantly forgotten afterwards.

At some point, Shadow becomes overwhelmed and somewhat corrupted from the energy only to transform into a demi-god stronger than your usual Superform.

Isn't he powerful enough?

As well as myself, there are quite a lot of folk that believe he's already damn near overpowered. Making him a literal demi-god would not do any favours.

So he goes on a rampage and then decides "you know what, it would be so cool if Knuckles could do this since he was near the ME" and gets Knuckles on his side...and well...

That sounds slightly lazy to me. Again, Evil-Shadow seems to be falling too much into the For The Evulz trope. Is there any legitimate reason for why Evil-Shadow wants to create Evil-Knuckles aside from the Rule of Cool? And all because he happened to be near the Master Emerald? What?

But admit it tho, it sounds like a good idea for fanfiction.

And this just makes you sound egotistical lol.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Dr. Crusher

[SpeedKeed]

Knuckles isn't dumb, he's easily tricked. He's 70% smart, 30% dumb.

[Diogenes]

Even compared to pther fanfics?

Well it's not especially bad, compared to other fanfics...but that's because most fanfics fall in the range between "pretty bad" and "war crime". But there's nothing about fanfiction that makes it inherently terrible; a good writer with a good idea can make a fanfic that's better than most of the trash that gets published, so I tend to hold fanfics to about the same standards as any other sort of fiction. Honestly your idea's pretty middle-of-the-road; I'd expect it to be kind of bad, but I wouldn't doubt that a good writer could make it workable.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Already potentially doomed. Time travel is just one of those plot devices that require extra extra caution.

Trust me, I was aware of that from the get go once I brought it up as the first problem. I got all the time I need to try to make it work. The way I would've gone about this wouldn't be about preventing any future disaster (since it would've already happened), and the plot excuse in doing so isn't exactly as complex as they had it in Sonic 06.

It was just a heads up warning so you guys were aware of the related problems below.

This one's more on opinion. While some would appreciate it since SA2 was the one complex plot that was "good", there'll be others that wouldn't be fond of the similarities. (Eg: me lol.)

What similarities exactly? Just the complexity?

That sounds like the worst kind of the For The Evulz villain to me. This "corruption", regardless of whether it thinks of itself as "evil" or not, has to maintain a point for why it's posessing the characters, what it wants to do, etc etc. There needs to be a backstory and motivation for this Master Emerald-powered virus, even if it's not necessarily a character/villain itself.

The corruption isn't sentient. It's practically a With Great Power Comes Great Insanity, as using the M.E. the way it would to avert whatever disaster they were trying to prevent ends up increasing Shadow's power without him realizing it to the point that he cannot control himself. I'll admit, it's generic, but it gives me a way to use an already existing source without making up an new one from scratch.

If you ask me, that sounds exactly like shoehorning.

Yeah, I'm hoping to justify it later on. As I've said, this could stretch into several games, so I'm looking to use any character I can to give more use to them as a character...which doesn't make it less shoehorning, but at least you see where I'm trying to go (or not).

...Why? There doesn't appear to be any logical reason for Evil-Shadow and Evil-Knuckles to want an Evil-Silver beyond being EVIIIIL. And why Silver in particular? Just because of his powers?

Yeah, pretty much.

Hey, it's like I said. The idea is crazy.

Eggman becomes a hero

WHAT THE FUCK IS THI-

(only to become an even BIGGER bad further in the plot)

...oh, right. Cool stuff. But that "further" better be soon. Rururu.

I was kinda lazy in explaining that.

I was hoping to have Eggman at some point drain the excess power from Shadow, Knuckles, and Silver and use it on himself, while him being a genius would certainly be savvy enough to know he should make a safeguard to prevent him from being just as insane.

Eh...that needs more work anyway.

Personally, Sonic 2-S3&K/SA2-ShtH "arcs" aside, I don't think Sonic's the kind of series to have that specific kind of ongoing plotlines. Sonic may be more plot-heavy than the likes of Mario, and that's all very well, but he's still a cartoony hedgehog in the long run. It's hardly going to reach Metal Gear Solid levels.

Actually, I'm trying to avoid Metal Gear Solid-esque plot on the count of them being too damn long despite how good I think they are.

I would rather it be WAY more streamlined than that. Kinda on the level of the Megaman Zero in terms of how plot heavy and ongoing it is.

There would be consequences to this kind of setup - such as trying not to make whatever "problem" it is instantly forgotten afterwards.

Working on it. I was planning to make it a threat from Eggman himself.

Isn't he powerful enough?

Is Knuckles and Silver powerful enough?

All three of them being overpowered was practically the point, and that overpoweredness is what makes them one of the antagonists.

As well as myself, there are quite a lot of folk that believe he's already damn near overpowered. Making him a literal demi-god would not do any favours.

Keep in mind, I'm extending this demi-god status to Knuckles and Silver. So it's not like he would be the only one.

That sounds slightly lazy to me. Again, Evil-Shadow seems to be falling too much into the For The Evulz trope. Is there any legitimate reason for why Evil-Shadow wants to create Evil-Knuckles aside from the Rule of Cool? And all because he happened to be near the Master Emerald? What?

How about in his attempt to destroy Knuckles, the fact that Knuckles was also using the Emerald with him to avert that disaster prevents that because said energy doesn't make it possible. So realizing that could be a threat to stop him, instead of destroying him, he just adds more energy to bring Knuckles on his level to keep the Heroes from taking advantage of this. And since they're both demi-gods on equal footing, betraying each other wouldn't make any sense on either one's part.

Or I could alter it so that Knuckles becomes the demi-god first and does the same.

Eh, if that's not good enough I can always find another way.

And this just makes you sound egotistical lol.

Seriously? I thought I was already that.

Yeah, I won't lie. I can be like that sometimes.

Honestly your idea's pretty middle-of-the-road; I'd expect it to be kind of bad, but I wouldn't doubt that a good writer could make it workable.

Well I expected you guys not to like the idea from the start once I brought the idea up, so I was prepared for the worst.

I'm not exactly an experienced writer (more like a noob), but since I'm a TV Tropes addict I tend to look up on tropes and see how I could have gone about this and what kind of loopholes I could possibly get away with. Not that that makes me anymore experienced, but it makes me aware of what pitfalls I could fall into if I'm not careful.

Edited March 25, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

...CSS, you're idea isn't bad...it just seems like something you randomly threw together in 5 minutes.

Let's get back on topic shall we?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

...CSS, you're idea isn't bad...it just seems like something you randomly threw together in 5 minutes.

I didn't. It was 2 minutes...no, seriously.

Except, for Knuckles and Shadow becoming villains for a while. That's been in my head for months.

[Darth Sonikku]

Knuckles isn't stupid. He's gullible, but he's not stupid. If any of you have played Sonic 3&K (and i'm sure you have), you'd know that Knuckles is intelligent and resourceful. On the Floating Island, Sonic and Tails were falling for all of Knuckles' traps. He knows stuff about the Chaos and Master Emerald(s) and he knows every corner of the Floating Island. He's good at treasure hunting as well. As for being gullible, Eggman was probably the first human he ever saw. So I wouldn't blame Knuckles for falling for his lies once or twice.

Knuckles is smart in his own way. Have Sonic Team improve upon his loner status (Like in Sonic 3&K and Sonic Adventure) as well as his understanding of ancient civilizations and treasure hunting. Also, give Knuckles a good reason to be angry rather than just for the sake of comedy. If Sonic Team can do this, I'll be a happy camper (though I shouldn't give my hopes up).

[Sean]

Posts deleted, don't let this topic get retarded.