Has Knuckles become too dumb?

[DarkLight]

Oh, come on. Knuckles has ALWAYS been a block-head. I love the guy, but DAMN he's an idiot sometimes. I don't think he's stupid at all (in fact he strikes me as having a quiet and somewhat mysterious intelligence, that he understands some things more deeply than most people will ever grasp), but he's naive. Particularly, he's socially naive, which is why he gets tricked so much. There are different types of intelligence, and Knuckles is strongly intelligent when it comes to chaos and nature and relevant history etc, but much weaker with technology and people. I think he's well-rounded.

This so much.

I think some people here tend to think the terms "dumb" and "gullible" mean the same thing.

Edited March 15, 2011 by DragonSoul

[Kuzu]

Oh, come on. Knuckles has ALWAYS been a block-head. I love the guy, but DAMN he's an idiot sometimes. I don't think he's stupid at all (in fact he strikes me as having a quiet and somewhat mysterious intelligence, that he understands some things more deeply than most people will ever grasp), but he's naive. Particularly, he's socially naive, which is why he gets tricked so much. There are different types of intelligence, and Knuckles is strongly intelligent when it comes to chaos and nature and relevant history etc, but much weaker with technology and people. I think he's well-rounded.

We all know Knuckles was never the sharpest tool in the shed, but he still got his job done. Nowadays his gullibility is the only part of his personality that remains its annoying and it isn't doing anything for him, I don't mind him making stupid mistakes, but he needs his mystical knowledge back.

[HeroMystic]

I wouldn't go as far as to say he got too dumb, but I do agree with most comments made in the thread. Knuckles has been portrayed as a just some dumb guy with lots of muscles post-SA2. Heroes is excusable (there was barely a story to Team Sonic in the first place), but everything after that was just a downhill spiral from there. I would blame most of this however on his backstory.

Knuckles, stranded on an island, protecting the Master Emerald is really not much to work with. Adding him to other storylines is difficult because you pretty much have to put some emphasis on his story to make it worthy. Sonic Adventure is a prime example of this. Hell, you can pretty much say Knuckles is the main character and could've been the protagonist if Eggman wasn't controlling Chaos and thus is destined to get his ass kicked by Sonic. Sonic Adventure 2 balanced it out but kinda streamlined the Master Emerald getting busted as an excuse to get him in the game.

After that though Sonic Team took an extreme approach and just pretended the Master Emerald didn't have to tie down Knuckles, but it went to the point where they just act like it doesn't exist (outside of vague reference or backstory). On that point Knuckles began to become Sonic's 2nd sidekick and therefore had to become compatible with his nature. This is why Knuckles is a goofball at times because Sonic Team has been ignoring his origins for quite some time outside of Rivals (Admittedly Sonic Battle is a very humorous portrayal of his hot-headed attitude and I would like to see more of that).

[Marcello]

Oh, come on. Knuckles has ALWAYS been a block-head. I love the guy, but DAMN he's an idiot sometimes. I don't think he's stupid at all (in fact he strikes me as having a quiet and somewhat mysterious intelligence, that he understands some things more deeply than most people will ever grasp), but he's naive. Particularly, he's socially naive, which is why he gets tricked so much. There are different types of intelligence, and Knuckles is strongly intelligent when it comes to chaos and nature and relevant history etc, but much weaker with technology and people. I think he's well-rounded.

[Flyboy Fox]

No, I don't think so. Big and Storm may be shown as clearly intellectually lacking, but Knuckes is simply shown to be a straightforward and basically what-you-see-is-what-you-get kinda guy. Being less intellectually-minded doesn't imply a lack of intellect itself, per se. Just a less academic appliance of intelligence. He's not a hurr-durr characature. He's just a simple straightforward guy who doesn't really care to learn all the ins and outs of technology or people skills because his duties and spirituality are more important to him.

[Glenn]

Flyboy knocks it right out of the park with two amazing posts there, backed up by wisdom from DragonSoul, who pointed out that being gullible doesn't equal being stupid. That has always been my belief about Knuckles, one of my favourite characters.

While I do adore Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), I had a real *facepalm* when Knuckles fumbled with, and ultimately dropped, Dr. Eggman's message to Sonic at the Soleanna docks. Being easily manipulated has nothing to do with being a clumsy oaf. If anything, Knuckles has demonstrated excellent physical co-ordination and reflexes with his many abilities as a climber, glider (think of the balance needed for that) and digger. He should be the last person dropping everything he's handed.

Or maybe Sonic just threw it wrong.

Anyway, I think Knuckles has fallen on hard times of late. Each videogame is different but, in general, I would appreciate more of a point to having him tag along, beyond just "tagging along" and making up the numbers in itself. And avoid rivalry with Sonic, because he'll always lose and therefore come across as stupid for even trying. Knuckles has come a long way since 1993. Celebrate that fact.

[Octarine]

While I do adore Sonic the Hedgehog (2006), I had a real *facepalm* when Knuckles fumbled with, and ultimately dropped, Dr. Eggman's message to Sonic at the Soleanna docks. Being easily manipulated has nothing to do with being a clumsy oaf. If anything, Knuckles has demonstrated excellent physical co-ordination and reflexes with his many abilities as a climber, glider (think of the balance needed for that) and digger. He should be the last person dropping everything he's handed.

Or maybe Sonic just threw it wrong.

That was pretty much the only thing Knuckles did in that game that I did like. Good reflexes or not, the guy wears boxing gloves all the time. I thought the fumble was a nice acknowledgement of just how impractical that would actually be. I don't see any reason to take it as a strike against his intelligence or his skill, since climbing, gliding and digging (at least, the way he does them) all require a lot less finger dexterity than catching a piece of paper.

Now, the way he spent every second after that cutscene standing around in the background like a doofus and not contributing to the plot at all? That was just embarrassing.

[Glenn]

That was pretty much the only thing Knuckles did in that game that I did like. Good reflexes or not, the guy wears boxing gloves all the time. I thought the fumble was a nice acknowledgement of just how impractical that would actually be. I don't see any reason to take it as a strike against his intelligence or his skill, since climbing, gliding and digging (at least, the way he does them) all require a lot less finger dexterity than catching a piece of paper.

Good point! I guess there are different perspectives for every scenario... thank you kindly!

That said, part of me still thinks he could, and should, have caught it. But each to their own, I suppose!

[HeroMystic]

No, I don't think so. Big and Storm may be shown as clearly intellectually lacking, but Knuckes is simply shown to be a straightforward and basically what-you-see-is-what-you-get kinda guy. Being less intellectually-minded doesn't imply a lack of intellect itself, per se. Just a less academic appliance of intelligence. He's not a hurr-durr characature. He's just a simple straightforward guy who doesn't really care to learn all the ins and outs of technology or people skills because his duties and spirituality are more important to him.

This would be fine if Sonic Team bothered to show the "duties and spirituality". In most games if Knuckles was taken before release out no one would bat an eye outside of nostalgic thoughts because he just served as the muscle-head. Like I said, I really like his portrayal in Sonic Battle and I think it's perfect for him, but we never really see it in the main games that pretty much just focus on clumsiness ('06 being the main culprit), and it more or less snowballed into how he is now.

[Kuzu]

This would be fine if Sonic Team bothered to show the "duties and spirituality". In most games if Knuckles was taken before release out no one would bat an eye outside of nostalgic thoughts because he just served as the muscle-head. Like I said, I really like his portrayal in Sonic Battle and I think it's perfect for him, but we never really see it in the main games that pretty much just focus on clumsiness ('06 being the main culprit), and it more or less snowballed into how he is now.

The problem is that people want Knuckles to be a recurring character, but the way its written it can't happen without contradicting something in canon.

Though I would like to believe that Knuckles would leave the island, whenever he feels the Master Emerald is safe, not to "Tag along" but just doing his own thing until the action starts.

[Unholy Sonic]

To have Knuckles in a game as playable or just as interractions means that the situation is linked to something ancient, something related to the chaos Emerald or M.E. or related to his tribe.

This is what I want to see in the future games of Sonic, I want him to show us that he's got enough knowledge about stuff that the other are... totally unaware of.

To me, knuckles might just be the most intelligent among Sonic's when it's about ancient and natural stuff while Tails is about the mechanical, technologic and advance area.

It's just that Knuckles is easier to fool then Tails since he is always being suspicious about nearly anything that isn't related to his friends and je has a better judgement of the current situation while Knuckles simply charges in head on.

In numerous game, they showed Knuckles being somehow the brain of the team in dire situations;

Sonic and the secret rings

Okay he wasn't really named Knuckles there but he knew about the whereabouts of one of the Secret rings and (lol) how to defeat the Fire genie.

Sonic Riders Zero Gravity

Knuckles was the only one who knew about the location and the background story about Gigan Rock area. Sonic and Tails were both surprised by that, mostly when Sonic screamed 'You know it Knuckles?!'

He was also the only one able to read the ancient scripts in the Secret room of the Gigan Rocks

So yeah, on top of it all, as a treasure hunter, your bound to travel around the world, discovers some unknown area and solves multiple mysteries wich is Knuckles' strongest point.

[DarkLight]

Why do I get the feeling this will turn into another "Should Knuckles stay protecting the Master Emerald in future games?"

[Unholy Sonic]

I think there was already a topic with this subject or something similar to it...

Anyway, Should Knuckles stay protecting the Master Emerald in future games?

I think it would be wise to sa-*shot*

Edited March 16, 2011 by Unholy Sønic

[Chooch]

Having Knuckles permanently confined to the Master Emerald is just an excuse to make him never show up ever again.

Plots involving the Master Emerald, despite giving him a reason to be there, will get tiresome and redundant. If he shows up without the Master Emerald being involved somehow people just complain and question why he's there. It's a lose-lose situation. The only real compromise is, as I said, him not showing up ever again.

I question what people would prefer.

[Kuzu]

Having Knuckles permanently confined to the Master Emerald is just an excuse to make him never show up ever again.

Plots involving the Master Emerald, despite giving him a reason to be there, will get tiresome and redundant. If he shows up without the Master Emerald being involved somehow people just complain and question why he's there. It's a lose-lose situation. The only real compromise is, as I said, him not showing up ever again.

I question what people would prefer.

Isn't that already the case? I mean his last main playable appearance was in 06, and he wasn't even one of the main playable characters...Ya know if we look back, not counting handhelds or spinoffs, Knuckles hasn't had any importance for over 5 years, he was may as well be a minor character considering that.

Black Knight was one of the few new games to give him some play.

Knuckles is firmly an "Artifact", his story was mostly fleshed out in the Adventure games, and even if there were future plotlines involving the M.E., as you said they would get boring and redundant, not to mention that would mean Knuckles would have to be the protagonist of said plot or at least share the role with Sonic, I can see why most people put him in high regard, but he's mostly put into games for fanservice and nothing more.

I think that's why he was made "Dumber", Sega simply can't find a role he should fill. And even if they did, someone would complain why isn't the M.E. involved in some way shape or form.

[Ekajra]

Good reflexes or not, the guy wears boxing gloves all the time.

But wouldn't that mean he would be used to catching things while wearing them. I mean, if Strong Bad can type while wearing boxing gloves, I don't see while Knuckles can't catch a card.

I believe I mentioned this in another Knuckles related topic, but despite him being my all-time favorite character, I would prefer him not to show up as often. Now, obviously I don't want Knux to completely disappear, but having longer gaps between appearances gives them time to think of good reasons for him to be there. And even if they can't think of a good reason, his appearance there would be more tolerable if it didn't seem like he was constantly leaving the island.

I do think they missed a good opportunity to use him in Unleashed. I mean, the world is split apart by evil and it's tied to the Chaos Emeralds. Knuckles is on an island that's ALREADY FLOATING and he's guarding the MASTER EMERALD. You think someone might have thought of that as being useful. And it wouldn't have been Knuckles finding Sonic and Tails. They could have gone to the island, Dark Gaia minions are there, and they fight their way through. Maybe just one or two acts on Angel Island, then they get to the Emerald Shrine where Knuckles is busy holding his ground, boss drops in, Sonic fights it, and something happens after that with the Master Emerald being useful. Knuckles could have even attacked Werehog-Sonic and there would have been a Knuckles bossfight. But that's just one way they could have used him.

[Diogenes]

Plots involving the Master Emerald, despite giving him a reason to be there, will get tiresome and redundant. If he shows up without the Master Emerald being involved somehow people just complain and question why he's there. It's a lose-lose situation. The only real compromise is, as I said, him not showing up ever again.

Nope! Your simplistic interpretation of the situation completely fails to sway me.

[Octarine]

But wouldn't that mean he would be used to catching things while wearing them. I mean, if Strong Bad can type while wearing boxing gloves, I don't see while Knuckles can't catch a card.

[Chooch]

Nope! Your simplistic interpretation of the situation completely fails to sway me.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Chooch

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Plus I'm just plain tired of the complaining and I think him not showing up at all is the easiest way to silence the most people.

No, because then I'll just fuss about how Sonic Team aren't even trying to develop him out of that hole he has with the Master Emerald. I may not speak for the fanbase, but as loud as I can be, I'll tend to sway a few more opinions than I intended thanks to the internet.

The problem with Knuckles being tied to the Master Emerald is both a storytelling problem and a favoritism one. The favoritism one is the bigger of the two demons, in that people believe that Knuckles should be put on a higher pedestal and appear more than characters who are in a similar or better position in terms of appearances like Shadow. The logic? Knuckles should appear whenever he wants to regardless of the expense of the story while Shadow should be restricted according to the plot. Does anyone really require contact lenses to see the hypocrisy in that? And it really becomes funny when the seniority angle is the last argument they can fall back on. And that's really the crux of the problem, as the same people who are arguing for Knuckles ties to the Master Emerald want him to appear, they just don't want his character to decay or be tossed in as mere fan service as opposed to playing a decent role in the plot like everyone else; however, they're against sacrificing the potential of other characters being used at the expense of shoe-horning Knuckles.

And put it this way, I like Shadow more than Knuckles and yet even I don't think they deserve more over the other. I'd like Knuckles to appear and be developed equally as much, but I don't want to retcon the Master Emerald out of the series in order to do so unless people are okay with me retconning other things like say Blaze being from another dimension to bring her into the series more often. If I'm supposed to "just deal with it" when people want Knuckles around, then others should deal with it as well if I want Shadow or Blaze around.

I'd say that's fair.

[Sean]

I'd love for Knuckles to go back to being an unleaded douchebag. The Knuckles of S3 would undoubtedly humiliate Sonic at every chance he gets when the hedgehog's crossing on his property.

The early Archie comics captured my interpretation of their relationship to a T, but then they inevitably became the bestest pals there too.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You know, I find it interesting how the folks at Archie actually managed to justify Knuckles hanging around off the Floating Island and have it sit well.

Of course, they've managed to do so while still leaving more room to develop Knuckles on the things that involved him already such as his race and the recent near extinction of it, one splinter part of his race working for Eggman out of desperation, the Master Emerald at certain points in the past, and his grand-uncle being part of the mess trying to help fix the mess.

The Archie Knuckles has a lot more to work with than the Game Knuckles, and I think is a pretty good reference to go off of if Game Knuckles is to be the same way. Of course they came close with Chronicles, which for the millionth time, needs to be retconned so it can be used again. Sure he won't be the last of his race anymore, but it would give him more room to work with and won't make him any less unique in the process.

Edited March 17, 2011 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Sean]

The Knuckles series is great, and it's one of the main highlights of the comics whenever I think back to it. It's really one of the few moments that made me care about the character as much as I did.

Sega's handling of the character ever since SA1 was, uhhhhh, well I don't care for it whatsoever, not even in that game.

[Kiberbot]

Just return Shiro Maekawa as writer, and Knux will be cool and charismatic character. Retrieved on Zero Gravity. Other writers do not take the character seriously, and Shiro loves and appreciates him, it can be seen in all plots, which he had wrote (episode about Knuckles in China from Sonic X written by him too).

[Chooch]

No, because then I'll just fuss about how Sonic Team aren't even trying to develop him out of that hole he has with the Master Emerald.

This doesn't refute my point that having him not show up is the easiest way to silence the most people. More people take issue with Knuckles being around than they do him not being around as he is now. Your point here against Knuckles not appearing is basically 'it won't satisfy everyone' and that's so unbelievably fucking broad and vague that it can be applied to literally each and every aspect of the series. It just leaves people going around in circles indefinitely.

What do you honestly propose the developers do? Obviously right now the developers' course of action has been to keep him out of the major Sonic games entirely post-'06. Having him only appear in spin-offs and the nonsense that was Sonic Colors DS which had basically everyone shoehorned in for no reason and I'd hardly count as a 'main' game.

If I'm supposed to "just deal with it" when people want Knuckles around, then others should deal with it as well if I want Shadow or Blaze around.

I'd say that's fair.

It is fair, and ideally that is what should happen always, but the idea of people just dealing with it is laughably unrealistic. I love Knuckles a lot, but I've basically given up on him at this point and it seems like the game developers have as well. The games can be perfectly enjoyable without him being around and it's rather ironic that since he's been cast aside in favor of focusing primarily on Sonic the series has been at its best since the Sonic Adventure 2 days.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Chooch