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[Saint Nathan]

All than happens, yes, but there's significantly more friction with the slide.

As in you slow down the second you start sliding, right?

Oh wait the spin attack does that too.

[Blue Blood]

As in you slow down the second you start sliding, right?

Oh wait the spin attack does that too.

lolno

Slide down a hill and you'll notice Sonic doesn't get very far when the ground levels out. And you certainly can't slide round a loop.

[Scar]

I don't know what the complaints are about.

I the Stomp was invented as a means of Deadstop.

If you're going too fast and you see a pit in front of you, you jump and press the Stomp button and you slow down within a short space.

Its there to stop people get getting frustrated because they're going so damn fast.

The usual momentum/friction laws still apply. Honestly, if you want to replace something, replace the boost with the spindash/roll.

However, the boost is much more conveniant.

[Blue Blood]

Thing is, the stomp doesn't stop you if you're going too fast or are above a slope. You'll keep sliding along the ground for a bit. It's there to let you attack straight down (and if a nifty addition to Sonic's moveset). SA1 has a very good jump cancel.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Blue Blood

[Saint Nathan]

lolno

Slide down a hill and you'll notice Sonic doesn't get very far when the ground levels out. And you certainly can't slide round a loop.

Same thing happens in Sonic 1 if you don't hold forward after spinning down a hill with minimal momentum and stop pressing forwards.

They both travel significantly farther if you held the direction or had them going at a certain speed first.

[Blue Blood]

Same thing happens in Sonic 1 if you don't hold forward after spinning down a hill with minimal momentum and stop pressing forwards.

They both travel significantly farther if you held the direction or had them going at a certain speed first.

You're missing the fundamental point that the slide is different to the roll. Compare rolling in SA1 to sliding in Unleashed or 06. They're entirely different. Also, can we get off this subject please?

[Rusty Spy]

Sliding has significantly more friction than rolling, and isn't a faster means of traveling while going downhill, unlike rolling. The main "gimmick" that made rolling rolling was that it significantly made you go faster downhill than just running.

[Phos]

Same thing happens in Sonic 1 if you don't hold forward after spinning down a hill with minimal momentum and stop pressing forwards.

They both travel significantly farther if you held the direction or had them going at a certain speed first.

Pretty sure the roll has the same friction whether you're holding forwards or doing nothing, but can be decelerated by holding the opposite direction. I can't access the Sonic Physics Guide right now, so I can't check. Regardless though, sliding isn't even really comparable to rolling, because when sliding down a hill you top out at a speed even slower than running (in Unleashed). But what I dislike more about the slide is how it is used. Its purpose is to go under narrow gaps. There are typically only a handful per level, and the only real challenge is remembering where they are.

The stomp is pretty pointless, though. It breaks breakable stage objects below you, which is something Sonic could already do by just jumping and landing on them, as seen in Marble Zone.

I personally describe this 3D control scheme they came up with as "wide and shallow", because they all seem like moves for the sake of having more moves. The drift is a pretty good example of that. A move to turn slightly more sharply. Why not just put that extra turning ability on the left stick?

[Saint Nathan]

The stomp is pretty pointless, though. It breaks breakable stage objects below you, which is something Sonic could already do by just jumping and landing on them, as seen in Marble Zone.

It's kind of a choice thing for blocks and such. You have to stomp an enemy on them and don't want to break through? Jump. It's just easier than possibly screwing up.

[Diogenes]

Pretty sure the roll has the same friction whether you're holding forwards or doing nothing, but can be decelerated by holding the opposite direction.

This is true; holding forward while rolling does nothing.

The slide bugs me because, even if they didn't want to implement proper rolling and just went with the mechanics the slide uses, they could've just stuck a rolling animation on there and it would be so cool.

[Phos]

It's kind of a choice thing for blocks and such. You have to stomp an enemy on them and don't want to break through? Jump. It's just easier than possibly screwing up.

I can't think of a time where enemies have ever been placed like that. That's a possible use for the move, but I don't think it's one the developers had in mind. That also seems like a pretty specific case for such a prevalent move, especially when you could just make breakable blocks that can simply be rolled upon, but that's just my take on it.

[speedfreak]

I don't even care if the roll doesn't work exactly as it did in the classics. I just want it there because I've always seen it as one of Sonic's main attributes. Why slide when you can roll? It's actually the only thing that bothers me about SC so far. It bothered me in SU too though.

[Rusty Spy]

And then imagine the shit storm when "OMG IT DOSENT HAZ TEH KLASIC FYSIKS RAAAAAAAAAEEEG!!!11!1!1one"

Really, if the roll isn't going to work like the roll, it might as well not be there. I don't give a shit about aesthetics, I'd want it there because it'd improve the gameplay.

[Diogenes]

Sonic's stomp reminds me of Mario's butt stomp, or his spin jump from SMW. Thinking of it like that, I can see why they might want to separate normal jumping from breaking blocks by jumping on them. Breakable blocks are more useful for level design if they can be treated as a safe floor until the player specifically chooses to break through them.

Of course, they need to actually start using blocks like that, if that reason is going to hold.

[gato]

Well, I would rather have a rolling that works like... you know... rolling, otherwise it will feel odd like the one in Sonic 4 does.

But I guess we can all agree to disagree and put an end to this discussion right?

Right? D:

[azoo]

No, because rolling isn't rolling without having it's associated physics. I mean I would be okay if the rolling worked just like sliding from Unleashed physics-wise. At least it speeds you up downhill to an extent.

[Phos]

If you have a physics system that works for Sonic while on foot, rolling is mostly just a case of using different values and conditions. On a somewhat related note, I could never figure out for sure exactly how slopes effected Sonic in Unleashed, there were times where jumping while on a hill caused him to behave one way, and times when it caused him to behave some other way. If they set it up such that he jumps straight up while stopped but in the direction of the normal while in motion, that's a pretty good way to set it up. Not sure how much of an affect gravity had on him, though.

I get the idea that they could have had a much more classic styled physics set up in that game, but given the levels, there was little reason to. Maybe the developers are caught in some kind of weird circular reasoning, they have no levels to take advantage of classic physics because they have no physics to use in those levels.

Sonic's stomp reminds me of Mario's butt stomp, or his spin jump from SMW. Thinking of it like that, I can see why they might want to separate normal jumping from breaking blocks by jumping on them. Breakable blocks are more useful for level design if they can be treated as a safe floor until the player specifically chooses to break through them.

Of course, they need to actually start using blocks like that, if that reason is going to hold.

I had an idea a while back (that was eventually implemented into a ROM hack that I can't remember the name of independently from me) of allowing Sonic to ball up while in the air, I was thinking that it might feel more Sonicy to go one set further and allow Sonic to unroll while in the air (for example, after a rebound) in situations like that, just stomping on it with his foot doesn't quite seem elegant enough for Sonic to me, though this is partly motivated by not wanting to use one of Mario's almost verbatim. I'd like to try and remain distinct, but I'm no stranger to the pitfalls of being different for the sake of being different.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Phos

[Diogenes]

I had an idea a while back (that was eventually implemented into a ROM hack that I can't remember the name of independently from me) of allowing Sonic to ball up while in the air, I was thinking that it might feel more Sonicy to go one set further and allow Sonic to unroll while in the air (for example, after a rebound)

Seems overly complex. With a separate stomp move, you only need to make the choice once; either you stomp through or keep running forward. If you have to manually uncurl to avoid breaking it, you have to make that decision every time you jump, and execute it before you land.

[Phos]

It's kind of a choice thing for blocks and such. You have to stomp an enemy on them and don't want to break through? Jump. It's just easier than possibly screwing up.

Partly what I'm doing is designing for the more common circumstance, I'd rather avoid having a move through the whole game that's only used in a few places. The stomp is used in Unlashed speedruns to reach the ground quicker, but the only reason it was needed for that was due to Sonic's limited fall speed.

[Tornado]

You know, while it still has some niggling issues that are largely rather irrelevant but still kinda annoying (basically, just the Slide/Roll thing), I must say that I am genuinely looking forward to this game the more we learn about it, which is something that I can't honestly say has been true since Heroes. I think it may even be enough anticipation to finally get me off my ass to buy a Wii.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Tornado

[Saint Nathan]

Partly what I'm doing is designing for the more common circumstance, I'd rather avoid having a move through the whole game that's only used in a few places. The stomp is used in Unlashed speedruns to reach the ground quicker, but the only reason it was needed for that was due to Sonic's limited fall speed.

I think all Sonic games had a limited fall speed but whatever.

The thing is, it's part of the alternate path thing they're actually doing well now. You can go over or though the blocks with the press of a button, if you don't want to take the path under the blocks, don't stomp. If you do, go nuts.

[Phos]

I think all Sonic games had a limited fall speed but whatever.

The thing is, it's part of the alternate path thing they're actually doing well now. You can go over or though the blocks with the press of a button, if you don't want to take the path under the blocks, don't stomp. If you do, go nuts.

In the Genesis games, the only limits to Sonic's falling speed were the level and the most negative signed integer. If Sonic is allowed to free fall, he will continue to accelerate until the value rolls over into the positives and he shoots back up at the highest possible speed. A while back I was thinking about making a hack with the intent to win the "worst hack" trophy by removing all the limits to Sonic's X velocity as well, and then designing the levels to make his X velocity flip the same way as often as possible.

If they're really using it that often and I don't have to use it on any of those plungers, I don't mind it, but the classics were able to throw in all sorts of routes without anything like that. Plus, I still feel like Sonic should aim to use fewer buttons than Mario, and Mario is only using three right now (jump, crouch, and spin).

Edited August 16, 2010 by Phos

[Scar]

In the Genesis games, the only limits to Sonic's falling speed were the level and the most negative signed integer. If Sonic is allowed to free fall, he will continue to accelerate until the value rolls over into the positives and he shoots back up at the highest possible speed. A while back I was thinking about making a hack with the intent to win the "worst hack" trophy by removing all the limits to Sonic's X velocity as well, and then designing the levels to make his X velocity flip the same way as often as possible.

If they're really using it that often and I don't have to use it on any of those plungers, I don't mind it, but the classics were able to throw in all sorts of routes without anything like that. Plus, I still feel like Sonic should aim to use fewer buttons than Mario, and Mario is only using three right now (jump, crouch, and spin).

Yeah, but Mario also has a waggle move. Its not a button, but it allows him to spin. He can also do various different moves using a combination of different buttons.

In any case, the controls scheme of Mario and Sonic games are worlds apart, because each franchise has different objectives.

The only issue is, how intuitive those controls are. Sonic can have as many buttons as are available, but as long as the core mechanics are solid and each button has been correctly assigned a purpose so that they are easily used, then its fine. Besides, I think new moves were added to Sonic's arsenal to add more to the "get to the end" gameplay.

[Phos]

Yeah, but Mario also has a waggle move. Its not a button, but it allows him to spin. He can also do various different moves using a combination of different buttons.

In any case, the controls scheme of Mario and Sonic games are worlds apart, because each franchise has different objectives.

The only issue is, how intuitive those controls are. Sonic can have as many buttons as are available, but as long as the core mechanics are solid and each button has been correctly assigned a purpose so that they are easily used, then its fine. Besides, I think new moves were added to Sonic's arsenal to add more to the "get to the end" gameplay.

You'll notice I mentioned spin, which has been mapped to waggle ever since waggle's been a thing. Waggle is basically a button and the game seems to treat it as such, as the direction and intensity of waggle makes no difference. It appears to be simply waiting for a change of a given absolute value. Mario using the buttons in sequence adds nuance to the controls without the end user being faced with greater complexity. Z handles all the downward moves, A handles all the upward moves, and shaking the Wiimote does all the offensive moves. Using very few buttons, Miyamoto gave the player control of surprisingly low level (that means detailed) movement.

"Each franchise has different objectives", That's part of the problem. The formula created for Unleashed devolved Sonic into a Time Attack/Score Attack arcade style game when it was previously a fully fledged console game.

Sonic should not use all the buttons available on a controller. That leads to terrible ideas like the drift, a move used to turn slightly differently, and the quick step, a move used to get out of the way (hey, ever heard of this thing, it's called an analog stick, it's very adept at moving 3D platforming game characters, it can steer cars, or fire a purple space bazooka). In contrast to Mario's narrow and deep control scheme, Sonic's newer moves are largely situational and are seldom used in concert with one another (little nuance).

[Scar]

You'll notice I mentioned spin, which has been mapped to waggle ever since waggle's been a thing. Waggle is basically a button and the game seems to treat it as such, as the direction and intensity of waggle makes no difference. It appears to be simply waiting for a change of a given absolute value. Mario using the buttons in sequence adds nuance to the controls without the end user being faced with greater complexity. Z handles all the downward moves, A handles all the upward moves, and shaking the Wiimote does all the offensive moves. Using very few buttons, Miyamoto gave the player control of surprisingly low level (that means detailed) movement.

"Each franchise has different objectives", That's part of the problem. The formula created for Unleashed devolved Sonic into a Time Attack/Score Attack arcade style game when it was previously a fully fledged console game.

Sonic should not use all the buttons available on a controller. That leads to terrible ideas like the drift, a move used to turn slightly differently, and the quick step, a move used to get out of the way (hey, ever heard of this thing, it's called an analog stick, it's very adept at moving 3D platforming game characters, it can steer cars, or fire a purple space bazooka). In contrast to Mario's narrow and deep control scheme, Sonic's newer moves are largely situational and are seldom used in concert with one another (little nuance).

That's where game design comes in. Miyamoto has stuck with Mario through everything and has perfected the formula. The control scheme is devised and the levels are designed with that control scheme in mind, without it being gratuitous. Unfortunately, Sonic has had far too many project leaders. Each with their own version of how things should work, so ultimately, one style is never perfected.

In Unleashed Quick-step and Drifting were given sections which were obligatory, otherwise the moves would have had no purpose what-so-ever.

In that sense they are pretty pointless and aren't really needed at all.

I think the best way to go would be to combine the Adventure and Unleashed styles. To me, they feel incomplete on their own.

At lower speeds in Unleashed Sonic controlled too poorly and his movements were far to imprecise.

At higher speeds in Adventure [2] Sonic's controls were too fidgety, you couldn't control him smoothly. You always needed to make small corrections, unless you were going in a completely straight line.

My point here being, Sonic Controlled better at higher speeds in Unleashed than in SA[2], and Sa[2] controlled better at lower speeds than Unleashed.

Thats not to say you can just stick those two control schemes together so that at high speeds he controls like Unleashed and at low speeds he controls like Adventure [2].

The controls still need further refinement. At lower speeds, Sonic should control almost exactly like Mario, but with greater acceleration. The acceleration should be gradual so that you can maintain control.

At higher speeds, Sonic's controls should become heavier , but his turning circle shouldn't be two miles wide. The controls should remain relatively tight, but should "feel" heavier and he shouldn't be able to change direction like a house-fly (that goes against the idea of momentum and inertia in every possible way). Of course further refinments would have to be made, but those can only be done through playtesting.

In this case Drifting would be useful for turning very sharp corners, so you can keep your momentum and inertia, so you don't lose any speed that you've built up.

Quick-step would also have a use, but only really as means of getting out of the way at the last possible second.

The rest is up to level design really.

EDIT: If rolling and spindashing is involved in this new formula, then he should controll like a ball. At higher speeds he should become harder to steer (there has to be a drawback to the spindash for it to be worthwhile, and to stop it being spammed everywhere). To activate spindash you'd press the X, B or Square button whilst being completely stationary. If you are moving and you press X, B or Square, you'll just go into a roll (which relies on momentum/Inertia) This is to prevent SA1 style boost-spamming.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Scar