Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Kuzu]

At that point, we're getting into preferences; if this thread wasn't enough of an indication, some people like the increased focus on the shattered world crisis and the appropriate action that comes with it, and praising the addition of several elements that were originally absent in Unleashed. 

 

I already said my piece; the overall product just comes off as a mixed bag for me. There are some thing I like, but others make me think "Well why couldn't they do it this way" So....*shrug* your mileage may vary I guess.

 

[Arcade Racer CC14]

On a note unrelated to the previous discussion, MY SU 83 HAS ARRIVED! I think it's safe to say that the drought is officially over.  

[shdowhunt60]

19 minutes ago, The KKM said:

I think changing the comic to have fit Unleashed would've made the comic stronger tbh in the sense I feel the insistence in having it be a superhero action comic damages it and stiffens it, but again, if no-one's willing to take that step, then as I've said- don't try at all. Hell, you could've easily even did mostly the same arc, but position it as a SEQUEL to Unleashed instead of an ADAPTATION - like the Total Eclipse story! If for some bizarre reason you really must have the "Earth's been shattered just like Unleashed" excuse for a world arc.

Oh good Lord, we're doing this again. Yes, let's completely ignore the flaws that Unleashed had, because Unleashed was perfect, and do a 1:1 adaptation of that.

[Mauro Fonseca]

17 minutes ago, Kuzu the Boloedge said:

At that point, we're getting into preferences; if this thread wasn't enough of an indication, some people like the increased focus on the shattered world crisis and the appropriate action that comes with it, and praising the addition of several elements that were originally absent in Unleashed.

Sure, but what's that to do with it? I'm arguing from my personal position, and don't think I've written these posts as anything but.

 

Just now, shdowhunt60 said:

Oh good Lord, we're doing this again. Yes, let's completely ignore the flaws that Unleashed had, because Unleashed was perfect, and do a 1:1 adaptation of that.

See, this is the problem with discussing these things over the years. For some reason people extreme the approaches. It's the same as in other discussions like "how to translate", where people go "well clearly it's either dry boring literal machine translation or shoving memes anywhere, there's no other way to do it!". Very clearly the only alternative to how the comic is doing things now is "1:1 UNLEASHED ADAPTION KILL ALL NON-SEGA CHARACTERS PURISM PURISM PURISM", isn't it?

I didn't say ignore the flaws Unleashed had. I said the comic is ignoring the strengths Unleashed had. A good adaptation, from where I stand, would NOT have sacrificed those strengths to try and fix the flaws, but given priority to making sure those strengths were considered first, and THEN how to fix the flaws. I even suggested ways of doing so in the last page, if you'd care to go read. Only quickly so, but it's there.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The way I see it, people are wanting things done their specific way according to their preferences while others just want an interesting story and don't mind the changes done. And what doesn't helping is the vitriol and passive aggressive attitudes thrown around - I actually enjoy Unleashed from the games as much as the next guy, but just because I like it doesn't mean I don't think it could have been better than what it is, nor does me liking the changes from an alternate continuity more than the source for taking advantage of what was missed mean I think it's perfect in every way to the games. (Oh, I certainly think it's better in a lot of ways to the point I prefer it over the games, but that doesn't make it perfect)

The whole reason people argue the games and comics are different mediums is because they recognize that these things weren't how they were done in the original source, and they don't mind that so long as they get a good story can still have the things they enjoy reading the comics for. There is no reason it has to be done "this way," "that way," or "no way," at all - there are thousands of ways you could tell a story with the premise that Unleashed has, if not more - likewise, there are many ways you could take that same story and play around with it. Like we've seen this done many times already, and if Sonic Boom has shown us anything, it's that this franchise is apparently flexible enough to just have the characters and throw them in a completely separate setting divorced of what we already associate the franchise as - and I don't freaking like Boom!

And really, Sonic isn't the only franchise that makes these major alternate changes - compare Justice Leage the animated series to the comics, or Young Justice, or Batman TAS to the Dark Knight Trilogy. Or Gundam with its dozen alternate series. They all have their differences, and it's understandable that not everyone will enjoy them the same.

[Ducktor Naldush]

10 minutes ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Oh good Lord, we're doing this again. Yes, let's completely ignore the flaws that Unleashed had, because Unleashed was perfect, and do a 1:1 adaptation of that.

Listen, the guy isn't saying that. He just would like an adaptation of the game that doesn't feel like a super-hero comic, something that builds on the game by showing more than it offered back in the day, taking advantage of the comic book medium, and doesn't seem to make changes just because.

I know he's able to say these things on his own, but that's how I feel about the current Archie Comics too. I still like them, mind you, (I would prefer another way of storytelling, but at this point that's what readers want), but that's still not 100% what I want from a Sonic Comic.

Also, let's keep this conversation quiet and mature, without snark. We were doing so good.

[Mauro Fonseca]

Just saying, Gundam's not a good example to bring over at all, since the whole often repeated point of contention here, "they're adapting the characters wrong", is moot there

 

Also you're arguing at nothing. It's exhausting to at every turn just have "but it's an AU it can do what it wants" thrown at your face. I'm not altering reality by posting here, the comic very clearly CAN do what it want. I'm arguing, from a critical personal perspective, which I haven't pretended is anything more, that it's not doing things correctly. Not even because it changed things, but because it changed the wrong ones. IMO,  IMO,  IMO.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

20 minutes ago, The KKM said:

Just saying, Gundam's not a good example to bring over at all, since the whole often repeated point of contention here, "they're adapting the characters wrong", is moot there

To which I honestly don't care, as that's doesn't refute my point.

Quote

Also you're arguing at nothing. It's exhausting to at every turn just have "but it's an AU it can do what it wants" thrown at your face. I'm not altering reality by posting here, the comic very clearly CAN do what it want. I'm arguing, from a critical personal perspective, which I haven't pretended is anything more, that it's not doing things correctly. Not even because it changed things, but because it changed the wrong ones. IMO,  IMO,  IMO.

Which is the core problem that started such a firestorm in the first place, because there aren't any "wrong" or "correct" ones to change - they may not be the ones you like, but that doesn't make them "wrong" the same as someone like me liking them doesn't make them "correct." You literally cannot say that, because that is by definition stating your opinion as fact more than it is criticism, which doesn't get into the actual fact that SEGA is allowing them to do all of these things in the first place - it's doing what it's allowed to do with what it wants, because it actually can't do what it wants if the people in charge say no to the idea.

[Mauro Fonseca]

I know it doesn't change your point, just telling you for future use of examples it's also not helping your point. Batman, Justice League, etc., those do fit your point, Gundam doesn't.

And I very much so can say they're doing things wrong or right if I'm arguing from a critical perspective, even if as far as you care I'm wrong myself. A movie comes out, you review it, you get to say "that camera placement's awful, the way the scene was written was wrong", etc. The context pretty clearly indicates it's in your opinion, doubly so as I've gone out of my way this time around to repeatedly explain I'm talking from my perspective, my opinion, etc. I can say it's wrong in the context of "this is how I believe and adaptation should be done, following these rules and guidelines, and what's different from it is wrong", in the same way I can say someone trying to draw something can be wrong about how they're doing it, even if it's equally valid that you then come and say "but it looks better like that". So can we move on from this?

[Nepenthe]

Saying something was wrong to change in an adaptation is an inherently opinionated statement posed as a criticism.

Let's stop dictating the way people are allowed to express opinions on this forum simply because we don't like the words "wrong" or "right" being used in pedantic ways, please.

Also--

Quote

Oh good Lord, we're doing this again. Yes, let's completely ignore the flaws that Unleashed had, because Unleashed was perfect, and do a 1:1 adaptation of that.

Don't make up people's arguments either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

What the-?

This isn't about us not liking the way we express our opinions. This is about people projecting arbitrary "rules" in places they don't actually apply and calling that criticism. That was the entire reason I made that point and made above comparisons, and I wasn't being pedantic than I was stating what is the actual case.

[Nepenthe]

That's literally how criticism works. There are arbitrary (read: subjective) rules and base assumptions established in order to communicate one's displeasure with a work with others. KKM has gone into detail explaining what his base assumptions are regards to what is pertinent for Unleashed's story to remain recognizable and why he believes Archie should not have messed with them. People are free to disagree with that and put up arguments with their own subjective interpretations about why the Archie adaptation is actually better. But you're trying to dictate what he can and cannot say based upon his usage of the word "wrong," and these kind of pedantic derails has been tiring behavior for years. Every statement in this topic that hasn't been someone pointing out something that occurred in the comics is literally an opinion by default. So debate with the point and substance of said opinions if you have arguments to make. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That's literally how criticism works. There are arbitrary (read: subjective) rules and base assumptions established in order to communicate one's displeasure with a work with others.

Then that's not what was communicated until after he explained it in detail, because the entire time it came off as less of his own individual displeasure (which no one minds hearing even if they disagreed) and more in the way that they literally aren't allowed to do this because SEGA shouldn't allowed them to do it and how Archie is pretending to be the liscensor over the the comic.

 

[Mauro Fonseca]

I can't fault you for it, but I have to say, it does seem you're arguing here based on my posts for years. which fine, makes sense, but I am distinctly right now trying to approach it differently. I didn't even mention SEGA here.

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, ChaosSupremeSonic said:

Then that's not what was communicated until after he explained it in detail, because the entire time it came off as less of his own individual displeasure (which no one minds hearing even if they disagreed) and more in the way that they literally aren't allowed to do this because SEGA shouldn't allowed them to do it and how that's what was being used as criticism.

 

An opinionated statement is an opinionated statement regardless of whether or not someone is gentle or crystal clear about expressing it. So again, instead of derailing any conversations about people "asserting opinions as fact" based upon their word usage, debate about the points being presented at hand. And this is for future reference for any and all debates you engage in going forward. If you're still confused about this or have any issues, just PM me.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

No, actually  I'm fine. I know what an opinionated statement is, the problem was that it was said in a way that made me think of something else, because yes I was going by poste KKM made years ago that as far as I knew he was approaching the same way.

It's a misunderstanding that I see is not the case now, so I can drop it.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Rocket Prince CC14 said:

On a note unrelated to the previous discussion, MY SU 83 HAS ARRIVED! I think it's safe to say that the drought is officially over.  

Yup, just got mine today as well. Its so good to be back.

 

[Your Vest Friend]

Okay, so here's something I've been pondering; in retrospect, Vector giving Knuckles the Red Chaos Emerald instead of directly taking it to the Freedom Fighters was basically nonsense.

1. Knuckles argues that because the Hooligans would realise they'd been duped, they'd come along and steal the emerald back. For one, eve if they did try to steal it back, the Chaotix don't have a record of having things stolen from them when they're supposed to be guarding it, and then the overall competence of the gang raises questions as to whether they'd do it before the Chaotix could pass it on anyway (especially when they have other jobs too, as shown a bit later). For another, Angel Island is NOT secure in the slightest, since the thief on that island is the far more competent Rouge. And sure enough, Total Eclipse lays waste to Knuckles' statement entirely.

2. The length of time the Chaotix would have had to held onto the Chaos Emerald would be a few days at most. just a four-issue arc later, Champions happened. In comic time, that would have been just a few days (at most) after the events of Great Chaos Caper. And if Espio had been sent there to tip the scales in the favour of the protagonists, there's no way they didn't know about the Championship and Sonic being a headliner for at least a while, Breezie would have been using that to advertise for more than that, giant media mogul she is. So, really, it would have been safer to skip a middle man and just give the emerald to Sonic at the championship, he's an actual Freedom Fighter and has a better history of holding onto powerful magical jewels.

Screw trying to show that Knuckles and the Chaotix are still close because you want to tiptoe around showing Knuckles Chaotix having happened, Vector should have just told him to buzz off and that the Emerald was more secure with them. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

This adaptation discussion reminds me how Flynn adapted Omega's origin. It's far better then how games handled him, but at the same time it weakened Gamma story  While it's disappointing I prefer to have good origin for Gamma in games and for Omega n Archie then sticking to original and have only one good story.

But I think we all can agree on one thing: Chip is totally wasted. I don't care that perfect adaptation is impossible (and Flynn must adapt stuff), Chip joined the crew, he should be used. So far Flynn gives him arbitrary moments like bringing keys to say "see? he's not useless".

[QuantumEdge]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

This adaptation discussion reminds me how Flynn adapted Omega's origin. It's far better then how games handled him, but at the same time it weakened Gamma story  While it's disappointing I prefer to have good origin for Gamma in games and for Omega n Archie then sticking to original and have only one good story.

But I think we all can agree on one thing: Chip is totally wasted. I don't care that perfect adaptation is impossible (and Flynn must adapt stuff), Chip joined the crew, he should be used. So far Flynn gives him arbitrary moments like bringing keys to say "see? he's not useless".

I actually liked Omega's introduction in Heroes.  Instead of getting a conscience lickety split like he did in the comic, he just starts off as a violent, bitter and unpredictable machine that slowly develops the ability to actually care for his teammates, rather than simply continue to view them as a means to an end.  Having Gamma download his conscience into Omega, like something out of Pinocchio, just feels silly and lacks the strength his original story had.

[blade57331]

7 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

I actually liked Omega's introduction in Heroes.  Instead of getting a conscience lickety split like he did in the comic, he just starts off as a violent, bitter and unpredictable machine that slowly develops the ability to actually care for his teammates, rather than simply continue to view them as a means to an end.  Having Gamma download his conscience into Omega, like something out of Pinocchio, just feels silly and lacks the strength his original story 

I think you making a lot of assumptions there. Did we ever saw him warm up to them in that game? I surely don't remember him changing at all in Heroes.

[Dr. Detective]

On 3/18/2016 at 11:15 PM, WittyUsername 2: Revenge said:

I'm personally getting a bit tired of Shadow and Knuckles universe stories and would really prefer some other character, or group of characters, to get one. Maybe Amy or someone, I dunno.

I probably wouldn't complain if they didn't take a third of a year to release to get to a new story.

It was definitely there. It was subtle but the big moment for him was at the very end of Team Dark's story where Rouge tries to confide into Omega her fear that Shadow is actually a robot. She stops and says nevermind and wishes him good luck on his revenge because she figures he wouldn't care about her concern but then for the first time in the entire game, Omega actually stops her and addresses her concern by reminding her that there's a small chance the original could still exist due to the option of cloning. And then he walks off. And from then on you do gradually start to see little tidbits of him lightening up a bit around them. 

It's definitely a lot more interesting thinking about it happening that way then just lazily coupling Gamma and Omega together. The two of them have a very minor connection in the games, in that they're apart of the same line of E-Series robots. Omega knows who Gamma is but that's it. He doesn't know what happened to him or how he defected because Eggman never really found out either. I'd imagine there'd be a cooler (and much more original) story to tell working off that angle then this weird "Everyone is inherently connected to everyone" thing that doesn't sit well with me.

It gives off that same, strange vibe I get when the fanbase puts weird things into their fanfiction about Silver being the great, great, great, great grandson of Shadow. Just things that force characters to have more of a connection then necessary.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

In contrast though, I feel that it gave Gamma a better sendoff than the Adventure games did. Don't get me wrong, it gave us an emotional sendoff, but here, we have a full on battle against Omega, we have Gamma showing that despite all of the years since Adventure, and despite the fact technology has moved on, he is still able to be effective using his tools. As Gamma himself put it, Omega is an walking arsenal, Gamma is an assassin. 

Plus I prefer Omega's overall personality in the comics anyway. 

[Your Vest Friend]

Beta was exactly that though (always considered superior by Eggman, upgraded with far more advanced tech, Gamma still held his own both times). And more effective because Gamma essentially saw him as literal family (thanks to the bird inside both) instead of brother in the same sense that Eclipse would use it in. 

Plus come on, Gamma, assassin? That's silly. 

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

In contrast though, I feel that it gave Gamma a better sendoff than the Adventure games did. Don't get me wrong, it gave us an emotional sendoff, but here, we have a full on battle against Omega, we have Gamma showing that despite all of the years since Adventure, and despite the fact technology has moved on, he is still able to be effective using his tools. As Gamma himself put it, Omega is an walking arsenal, Gamma is an assassin. 

Plus I prefer Omega's overall personality in the comics anyway. 

I feel like having Gamma's sendoff with his battle against Beta could have been held to a similar standard if the comics had decided to write it that way honestly. When Omega was finally adapted into the comics, I remember being completely livid about the way it was done, mostly because they skipped over the thing about him that made him such an interesting character to me. Having a renegade robot who walks the line of not really having an allegiance to Sonic, G.U.N, or Eggman was the thing that I found the most intriguing about him and a character whose primary purpose and character motivation centers on revenge and pride is a rarity for this kind of series.

I tend to brainstorm more ideas around individuals who don't fall in line with the typical manner of inclusion when it comes to story-telling because those kinds of characters usually help to give the narrative a lot more layers. That's also part of why I like Rouge and the Chaotix so much. Often people have to work a bit harder when telling a story including those characters because their use in the story isn't slated to just "Heroes vs. Villains".

So when Ian just made him a member of G.U.N and flat out had him on the heroes side despite his destructive nature, I was a little peeved. I've lightened up on it a lot more nowadays but I still really would have preferred seeing how he would have handled Omega's original position. I feel he could have done something really cool.