Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[redmenace]

I don't see why Amy WOULD be angry... She idolised Sonic and sees that he cares for Sally, and therefore she accepts Sally because Sonic is lenient with her (Sally). As a kid, she was pretty naive and confused, so she probably didn't know what to think, either. She was just set on getting Sonic free because he was all she cared about right then.

Then why didn't she hold a grundge against the people who put them him inside as well? It would be only natural and accepted, furthermost, she was a child where this kind of bratty behaviour would be expected.

And like Miko said, Sonic cared about Fiona as well. And furthermore, I remember seeing Amy giving Fiona the dirty look for dating Sonic. Why doesn't she do the same with Sally? Inconsistency or Mary Sue treatment or both.

Rotor gay is the same as Dumbledore gay. An unnecessary extra which has no relevance for the story whatsoever. I'm glad Ian didn't put it in because I doubt he'd make Rotor have a relationship. That suggestion of the echidna is nothing if it's not properly dealt with. Therefore it's a cheap shot at trying to make the comic sound liberal when it's not. It has a monarchy for heaven's sake. That's even farthest from liberal than a republican could ever hope for.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Then why didn't she hold a grundge against the people who put them him inside as well? It would be only natural and accepted, furthermost, she was a child where this kind of bratty behaviour would be expected.

Amy originally believed that Sally would pardon Sonic because Sally was so close to him. Even when Sally admitted that she was still going to put Sonic on trial, Sally broke it to her gently, instead of sneaking around and being dishonest like Fiona did.

Also, it's somewhat implied that Sally may have been Amy's "Aunt" as much as Tails'. Especially given how Sally wanted Sonic to be a good role model for Amy. She might have a certain amount of affection/respect for Sally due to being raised by her.

[Flyboy Fox]

Then why didn't she hold a grundge against the people who put them him inside as well? It would be only natural and accepted, furthermost, she was a child where this kind of bratty behaviour would be expected.

Because she was starry-eyed blind in her defence of Sonic to the point where she didn't have reserves left to assign emotions towards anyone else.

And like Miko said, Sonic cared about Fiona as well. And furthermore, I remember seeing Amy giving Fiona the dirty look for dating Sonic. Why doesn't she do the same with Sally? Inconsistency or Mary Sue treatment or both.

Because, as I stated earlier, Sally was already established as someone Sonic was close to when Amy arrived. Fiona was a new threat, and also a total succubus.

Rotor gay is the same as Dumbledore gay. An unnecessary extra which has no relevance for the story whatsoever. I'm glad Ian didn't put it in because I doubt he'd make Rotor have a relationship. That suggestion of the echidna is nothing if it's not properly dealt with. Therefore it's a cheap shot at trying to make the comic sound liberal when it's not. It has a monarchy for heaven's sake. That's even farthest from liberal than a republican could ever hope for.

Because gay people can't exist in media unless their lives are scrutinised and made glaringly obvious. [/sarcasm]

Sheesh. THIS is why gay acceptance is so slow. In real life, gay people exist in the background, where it's not important to delve into their relationship or the impact of them being gay. It's merely a fact that we learn about them and doesn't NEED to be anything more.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Only tangentially related, but I've heard speculation that the Fleetway version of Tails was gay. Wouldn't be surprised since he seemed to be trying harder than Amy to win Sonic's approval in that continuity.

[Dr. Mechano]

Agreed entirely with Flyboy.

Gay characters can exist without their sexuality being their defining character trait, or even a major plot point. If anything, it emphasizes that they're just like anyone else. Which I, of course, see as a good thing.

If anything, the fact that gay characters can exist in a story without their sexuality being a huge controversial plot point shows that gay acceptance may finally be increasing; It's more "normal" in the context of newer stories, as in real life. I'm all for this portrayal.

[Flyboy Fox]

Only tangentially related, but I've heard speculation that the Fleetway version of Tails was gay. Wouldn't be surprised since he seemed to be trying harder than Amy to win Sonic's approval in that continuity.

Of course Tails is gay. He's gay in all continuities (even Sonic X lololol), don'tcha know? *Bricked*

Yay, Doc agrees with me =D We seem to be on the same wavelength a little more, recently. I actually think we have more similar takes on things than it would initially seem, and we only end up on opposing sides due to character preferences rather than the innate way in which we think. What say you, Doc?

[Dr. Mechano]

Yay, Doc agrees with me =D We seem to be on the same wavelength a little more, recently. I actually think we have more similar takes on things than it would initially seem, and we only end up on opposing sides due to character preferences rather than the innate way in which we think. What say you, Doc?

I think that makes sense.

In the one major area of the fandom we disagree on, I'll be the first to admit that I only initially saw Eggman as sympathetic/"good" after I already saw him as funny, entertaining, and totally awesome. It's no surprise that, to someone who isn't entertained by his antics, there's less desire to bother trying to notice any redeeming qualities in a character you're indifferent to or even outright dislike. (Perhaps this is why I can't seem to feel sorry for the supposedly deep Shadow, myself.)

Our mutual fandom of Team Rocket, if anything, proves we both subscribe to the notion that even people who do bad things can be innately good inside. There's just a divergence on who we ascribe those traits to.

So it's exactly as you said, I'd think.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Of course Tails is gay. He's gay in all continuities (even Sonic X lololol), don'tcha know? *Bricked*

I always knew Cosmo wasn't a girl's name.

Yay, Doc agrees with me =D We seem to be on the same wavelength a little more, recently. I actually think we have more similar takes on things than it would initially seem, and we only end up on opposing sides due to character preferences rather than the innate way in which we think. What say you, Doc?

Good to see you guys finding more common ground these days.^^

Edited November 3, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[AdventChild]

I always knew Cosmo wasn't a girl's name.

Of course. When we think of Cosmo, we automatically think of this guy:

[redmenace]

Amy originally believed that Sally would pardon Sonic because Sally was so close to him. Even when Sally admitted that she was still going to put Sonic on trial, Sally broke it to her gently, instead of sneaking around and being dishonest like Fiona did.

Also, it's somewhat implied that Sally may have been Amy's "Aunt" as much as Tails'. Especially given how Sally wanted Sonic to be a good role model for Amy. She might have a certain amount of affection/respect for Sally due to being raised by her.

image

Well, if Sally can't pardon Sonic, why would Amy not hold a grundge then? It doesn't matter if it was gently or not, the guy she likes is behind bars and one of the only persons who could let him out won't. Kids hold grundges for less, even against their parents. At least they scream a bit at them as well. we have nothing of the sort here.

This part is just disgusting. She's freaking loved by everyone in this stupid comic. There's no one who dislikes. Everyone loves the princess. This is not believable, acceptable or good writing. And if Sally really raised her, then why haven't we seen this? It's classic, show, don't tell.

Because she was starry-eyed blind in her defence of Sonic to the point where she didn't have reserves left to assign emotions towards anyone else.

If she was this obcessed, then holding a grundge would be the most expected thing to happen.

Because, as I stated earlier, Sally was already established as someone Sonic was close to when Amy arrived. Fiona was a new threat, and also a total succubus.

So? Are you telling me is very common for new love interests to respect exes? It's the other way around. It doesn't amtter as well. Sally is a block in Amy's way. Of course she would hold a grundge at least as far as they were dating. Not holding it is unbelievable.

Because gay people can't exist in media unless their lives are scrutinised and made glaringly obvious. [/sarcasm]

Sheesh. THIS is why gay acceptance is so slow. In real life, gay people exist in the background, where it's not important to delve into their relationship or the impact of them being gay. It's merely a fact that we learn about them and doesn't NEED to be anything more.

I didn't say that it's not a good characterization point. I said it's a cheap way to pass the comic as liberal when it's just an extra that has no repercussions for the story. Read more carefully next time.

By the way, this is not real life. This a messy comic which has trouble remaining on point with all these extras popping in when you least expect it.

[Flyboy Fox]

I did read carefully, and I still don't see why a gay character needs to be expanded on in regards to their gay relationship. Being rude about it doesn't give your answers any more validity. Why are you getting so defensive?

[Blazey Firekitty]

Of course. When we think of Cosmo, we automatically think of this guy:

FAIRIES!*spasms*XD

Oddly, enough, he has green hair just like the Sonic X Cosmo...

@Redmenace:

In regards to Sally: I'm not really sure why it bothers you so much that everyone(Who isn't a villain) likes Sonic so much. I mean, I can kind of understand it, since I'd also probably raise an eyebrow if I read a comic where the world seemed to revolve around one person.

But the world seems to revolve around Sonic as much as it does Sally. I don't think Sonic has any "Good Guy" characters who heavily dislike him, anymore. Geoffry St. John hasn't been relevant in years. Sonic and Knuckles don't have a rivalry anymore. Blaze tried to beat Sonic up once, then immediately became his friend. Monkey Khan's grudge against Sonic also went away about as quickly as it came. Even Shadow of all people is starting to like Sonic.

Why is it okay for everyone to love Sonic, but not okay for everyone to love his ex-girlfriend?

In regards to having gay characters: It would be pretty embarrassing to point out that a character was gay every single time that he/she appeared. Imagine what it would be like if, every time we saw Rotor, he was called "Rotor-Who-Is-Gay."

[Flyboy Fox]

Sonic is the hero, Sally the heroine. They are both loved and admired. I don't see a problem, as they're both also shown to have flaws and problematic relationships.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Sonic is the hero, Sally the heroine. They are both loved and admired. I don't see a problem, as they're both also shown to have flaws and problematic relationships.

Yeah, it's just a natural symptom of being main characters.^^

[redmenace]

I did read carefully, and I still don't see why a gay character needs to be expanded on in regards to their gay relationship. Being rude about it doesn't give your answers any more validity. Why are you getting so defensive?

I was not harsh nor was I being defensive. If we're grasping at straws than I have the right to feel insulted by your thinking that my opinion is why gays are so hard to accept. It has no meaning, right? Then your words have no meaning as well.

FAIRIES!*spasms*XD

Oddly, enough, he has green hair just like the Sonic X Cosmo...

@Redmenace:

In regards to Sally: I'm not really sure why it bothers you so much that everyone(Who isn't a villain) likes Sonic so much. I mean, I can kind of understand it, since I'd also probably raise an eyebrow if I read a comic where the world seemed to revolve around one person.

But the world seems to revolve around Sonic as much as it does Sally. I don't think Sonic has any "Good Guy" characters who heavily dislike him, anymore. Geoffry St. John hasn't been relevant in years. Sonic and Knuckles don't have a rivalry anymore. Blaze tried to beat Sonic up once, then immediately became his friend. Monkey Khan's grudge against Sonic also went away about as quickly as it came. Even Shadow of all people is starting to like Sonic.

Why is it okay for everyone to love Sonic, but not okay for everyone to love his ex-girlfriend?

In regards to having gay characters: It would be pretty embarrassing to point out that a character was gay every single time that he/she appeared. Imagine what it would be like if, every time we saw Rotor, he was called "Rotor-Who-Is-Gay."

That is the main problem. Sonic still has or had people that disliked him, and will always have. Name one person that disliked Sally openly. Even the enemies liked her. I think even Fiona didn't dislike her.

I didn't say anything about the character being gay or not, nor is it a problem to me. I was pointing out that it doesn't make the comic any more or less libera just because there's a small hint to it. And then people ask me if I'm being defensive about things when I've explained this three times already and they still think I have a problem with Rotor being gay. It's an extra in an already messy comic.

Edited November 4, 2009 by redmenace

[Flyboy Fox]

I just found it very defensive how you were getting all uppity about me next time reading properly. If the fault is in my interpretation of your words, fine. But there is no need to attack me over it by insinuating that I'm not paying you due attention, that's all.

I don't think the inclusion of a gay character makes a comic more 'liberal'. Being homosexual is not a political persuasion, merely a trait. Do you begrudge Nate Morgan for being black, too, because his colour isn't part of a plot point?

[Blazey Firekitty]

That is the main problem. Sonic still has or had people that disliked him, and will always have. Name one person that disliked Sally openly.

Sonic, during and shortly after their break-up.

Even the enemies liked her. I think even Fiona didn't dislike her.

Are you suggesting that Robotnik liked Sally?O_o Or am I misunderstanding you?

[Viuely]

Amy originally believed that Sally would pardon Sonic because Sally was so close to him. Even when Sally admitted that she was still going to put Sonic on trial, Sally broke it to her gently, instead of sneaking around and being dishonest like Fiona did.

Umm so why didn't Mina slap Sally for trying to give her tips on how to get Sonic, but then tiptoes and takes Sonic from her anyway despite knowing Mina liked him? Second of all it's still inconsistent because Amy didn't hesitate to confront Sally about things she felt were important like why she wasn't allowed to be a freedom fighter, but won't confront Sally about something that'd probably be equally if not more important, like about how Sally slapped Sonic?

Also, it's somewhat implied that Sally may have been Amy's "Aunt" as much as Tails'. Especially given how Sally wanted Sonic to be a good role model for Amy. She might have a certain amount of affection/respect for Sally due to being raised by her.

Amy wasn't raised by Sally, she's only been with them for a year at BEST before her physical change, and if anything Sally was a thorn in her side for joining the freedom fighters, and blamed it on trying to keep her away from Sonic, while they reward Tails to be a freedom fighter despite his reckless decision to go solo. Tails may've faced more perils, but they chose to make him a freedom fighter right after doing something that could've gotten him killed.

Because she was starry-eyed blind in her defence of Sonic to the point where she didn't have reserves left to assign emotions towards anyone else

Soooo can you still explain why Mina didn't slap her? Or why an older Amy didn't slap her?

Wait...Are you saying that Ken's writing sucks because he was a Democrat and not a Republican?

Umm no that wasn't what she was saying at all. Ken's writing is liberal to the degree that it feels like his writing is just there to make a point and not actually be entertaining. He's so consumed by his political messages, that it supercedes his ability to tell a story. He cares more about preaching about what women should be (i.e by altering Sally's original character) than just telling a story. He wants to be "feminist" but he comes from such social privledge that he doesn't know how to be pro woman and depict many different types of women who can maintain dignity and respect.

If anything, the fact that gay characters can exist in a story without their sexuality being a huge controversial plot point shows that gay acceptance may finally be increasing; It's more "normal" in the context of newer stories, as in real life. I'm all for this portrayal.

I'm not. Mainly because of the fact that it feels like the writers would come across as cold and indifferent to the struggles that gay people have to go through because of their sexuality in the real world, a world where gay acceptance may be increasing, but is not nationwide. Not to mention it's practically not sensitive enough towards the people who aren't pro gay, and wouldn't want their children reading a book with gay characters in it. A comic book such as this one that is damn sure not Marvel's calibur is not going to pave the golden way for gay acceptance. So this book shouldn't have the conceited aim that it will, and at the very most focus rather on the fact that this is a real issue.

I did read carefully, and I still don't see why a gay character needs to be expanded on in regards to their gay relationship.

This is a kids comic, and at the very least if you're going to expose kids to this (possibly without the consent of the parents who may not know until it's too late that you're putting this in it), you should at least present it as it is without the context of the story taking sides: A divided issue that has its advantages and disadvantages. the problem with a storyline like this is that it can make Sonic seem too insensitive a particular side should he take one.

Are you suggesting that Robotnik liked Sally?O_o Or am I misunderstanding you

Actually he DID like Sally when she was disguised as a sorceress....and wanted to marry her

Edited November 4, 2009 by Viuely

[Flyboy Fox]

Oh, so shall we talk about the slave trade and why not everyone agrees with interracial marriages just because Nate Morgan is black, hmm? Boo-hoo, kids gonna be corrupted by an incredibly brief insinuation that a character is gay.

Talk about going back to the dark ages...

Also why does every female character need to slap Sally if they disagree with her? Sally's method was to slap Sonic - not every girl reacts that way. Never saw Mina as the slapping type personally...

Edit: I love how everyone is bandying the neg reps around. Does it make you feel better? *Pets and gives a wollypawp* =)

[Viuely]

I don't think the inclusion of a gay character makes a comic more 'liberal'. Being homosexual is not a political persuasion, merely a trait. Do you begrudge Nate Morgan for being black, too, because his colour isn't part of a plot point?

No offense flyboy, but this is comming from the same guy who said he wouldn't have sex with a dog JUST because he had a girlfriend.

Oh, so shall we talk about the slave trade and why not everyone agrees with interracial marriages just because Nate Morgan is black, hmm? Boo-hoo, kids gonna be corrupted by an incredibly brief insinuation that a character is gay.

The problem with that is that interracial marriage is a more socially accepted issue than homosexuality, as racism has been treated with political incorrectness, so you are outwardly expected to accept it. However homosexuality is CERTAINLY not at that point yet and is still openly met with hostility.

Also why does every female character need to slap Sally if they disagree with her? Sally's method was to slap Sonic - not every girl reacts that way. Never saw Mina as the slapping type personally...

So? Why isn't she mad? And why didn't Amy take that approach? And its not a matter of disagreeing with them, its for her betraying their trust or mistreating Sonic. Very valid reasons to hate her for.

Sonic is the hero, Sally the heroine. They are both loved and admired. I don't see a problem, as they're both also shown to have flaws and problematic relationships.

Amy if in character wouldn't have declined putting Sally in her place to do whats right regardless. And Sally has flaws that actually get consequence? the whole essence of this discussion is because not even Sonic's love interests hate her for when she does something REALLY wrong to them.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Viuely

[Flyboy Fox]

No offense flyboy, but this is comming from the same guy who said he wouldn't have sex with a dog because he had a girlfriend.

I am thoroughly confused. What the HELL does that have to do with anything? Also I am a girl O.o FAIL.

The problem with that is that interracial marriage is a more socially accepted issue than homosexuality, as racism has been treated with political incorrectness, so you are outwardly expected to accept it. However homosexuality is CERTAINLY not at that point yet and is still openly met with hostility.

And attitudes like yours are exactly why. If you make a big deal about a character's sexual persuasion then of COURSE people are going to be ruffled, feeling like it's being forced down their throat. People need to be shown that gay people are exactly the same as straight people in everything but who they are physically attracted to.

So? Why isn't she mad? And why didn't Amy take that approach? And its not a matter of disagreeing with them, its for her betraying their trust or mistreating Sonic. Very valid reasons to hate her for.

Hate hate hate. Maybe they're just not as consumed with hate as you apparently are.

Also, here's what's funny. A few people in this thread have been complaining that there's a lack of equality because there are tomboys but not more feminine girls. Yet those SAME people are ALSO complaining because a character was shown as gay. What utter hypocrisy. Sure, let's make sure the character types that YOU want represented are there... but God forbid they show a character who has a trait you DON'T have a preference for!

[Blazey Firekitty]

Umm no that wasn't what she was saying at all. Ken's writing is liberal to the degree that it feels like his writing is just there to make a point and not actually be entertaining. He's so consumed by his political messages, that it supercedes his ability to tell a story. He cares more about preaching about what women should be (i.e by altering Sally's original character) than just telling a story. He wants to be "feminist" but he comes from such social privledge that he doesn't know how to be pro woman and depict many different types of women who can maintain dignity and respect.

I think I understand. The issue is apparently more with his ability to make stories consistent than his political stance, if I am reading you correctly.

Actually he DID like Sally when she was disguised as a sorceress....and wanted to marry her

Heh, you're right, come to think of it...That story was kind of cute in a weird way.

No offense flyboy, but this is comming from the same guy who said he wouldn't have sex with a dog JUST because he had a girlfriend.

What does this mean?O_o It doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

[Flyboy Fox]

I think it's either a red herring or a strawman or an ad hominem, Blazey. Not entirely sure which, but it has no place in this argument because it doesn't in any way affect the validity of my opinion here.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I think it's either a red herring or a strawman or an ad hominem, Blazey. Not entirely sure which, but it has no place in this argument because it doesn't in any way affect the validity of my opinion here.

Yeah, you're right, it's a completely unrelated tangent, whatever it is.

[redmenace]

Again the accusations that I have something against gay people. I'm giving up on this sorry.