Full first two levels

[Shane]

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

This is easily the best 3D Sonic in a very long time. Edited June 17, 2010 by XD375

[goku262002]

how come sonic's grunts sound soo different? i compared the unleashed footage with the new stuff and his grunts sound deeper then before.

...Possiable voice change? either that or their using his japanese SFX for the demo.

[Shane]

Well, rumours have been going around for a while that this is Sonic's new voice.

[Badnik Zero]

^ I'm 100% sure that's just some voice actor scrub they hired when they couldn't get Griffith. Why would they get the official voice actor to record for an extremely exclusive appearance in a hotel room? Anyways, his voice sounds the same to me in the trailer.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Dabnikz

[Phos]

I feel like my opinion of this game has been misinterpreted or misrepresented. I don't hate it, I am simply compelled to compare it to the classics. Surprise, I'll probably actually get it. It looks "good". The problem is that I'm really expecting "phenomenal" out of Sonic. I'm not going to pretend like the classics don't exist and I'm going to keep calling them on falling below the admittedly high standard as long as they keep doing it. Thanks in part to Ray Bradbury, I don't like complacency.

Now I've never played Shenmue (don't hurt me, fans), but isn't that game the originator of the modern QTE? And doesn't it include QTEs that takes control of seemingly-possible actions? One of the first videos I looked up shows Ryo chasing after some guy down an alley and dodging obstacles and people via QTEs; Now really, couldn't the player have simply move out of the way on his own if it were programmed as such?

QTEs don't have to be relegated to actions that would be impossible if left up to complete player input. In fact, I consider practicality irrelevant to the whole purpose of a QTE. They merely add suspense and urgency to a moment, thus when even mundane actions are overcome in this way, there's a noticeable catharsis. So whether I'm destroying a possessed phoenix or launching off a ramp, they still provide their own sense of satisfaction to the overall experience which is why I don't give the actual concept a hard time.

This is mostly a question of semantics that I've brought up, really. I was mostly just musing about it. Their being relatively uniform and not being one button at a time seems to distinguish them from your usual QTE. As for QTE's in general, Itagaki has a pretty funny thing about that, "If you're just going to put the button right there, why bother displaying anything else?" Obviously there are games that somewhat depend on them (Indigo Prophecy for one), but I personally don't like how most designers have them slow down the action, and they seem a bit out of place in a game with the sensibilities of a platformer. Why do we have a special event like moves him for you like that, considering that platformers are typically based around having control of your character on a relatively low level?

And QTE's first showed up, AFAIK, in Dragon's Lair. Don Bluth was the animator for it, in fact you can see that same backlighting effect he used in Secret of NIMH.

Well, rumours have been going around for a while that this is Sonic's new voice.

Pretty sure that's just some guy from the amusement park doing the voice. Jason isn't employed by Sega the way Charles Martinet is employed by Nintendo.

[Tyranno]

I dunnow. Not expecting something to be phenomenal strikes me as being unrealistic.

It's not even something Sonic has reached at any point in it's past. In fact, I'd say the TRULY phenomenal gaming experiences are few and far between.

There are two ways to chase after phenomenal. One involves an uncommon kind of dedication that's truly rare. The other kind is actively CHASING phenomenal while responding to what people say phenomenal is. Fans keep falling into the latter in terms of expectations.

[Velotix von Skruviktorrius]

Well.

I suddenly give a shit about this game now and actually want to buy it.

Curse you E3 2010, you and your magic blood.

[Phos]

I dunnow. Not expecting something to be phenomenal strikes me as being unrealistic.

It's not even something Sonic has reached at any point in it's past. In fact, I'd say the TRULY phenomenal gaming experiences are few and far between.

There are two ways to chase after phenomenal. One involves an uncommon kind of dedication that's truly rare. The other kind is actively CHASING phenomenal while responding to what people say phenomenal is. Fans keep falling into the latter in terms of expectations.

Sonic hit phenomenal and kept it pegged from lava reef to Doomsday.

I also love how people like to blame the problems Sonic has on the fans as though it's some reasonable conclusion.

[Scar]

Sonic hit phenomenal and kept it pegged from lava reef to Doomsday.

I also love how people like to blame the problems Sonic has on the fans as though it's some reasonable conclusion.

Yes, but it is a valid conclusion.

SA1 was made - Fans wanted a better story

SA2 was shown at E3 - Fans complained about a lack of Tails.

SA2 was remade and now included tails - Fans thought it shouldn't be in the real world, and they should return to classic level styles

Sonic Heroes was made - Fans said it was too childish, and wanted something more serious

Shadow the Hedgehog was made - Fans thought it was TOO serious and guns were fail. They now wanted a return to roots

Sonic 06 was [half] made - Fans thought it was a pile of garbage and needed to improved.

Sonic Unleashed was teased/leaked - Fangasms

Sonic Unleashed was released - fans did not like the Werehog, they wanted another return to roots

Sonic "needlemouse" Announced - fangasms

Sonic 4 revealed - Most fans happy, but alot complained about "ugly" Green-eyed Sonic, made a crappy petition, nobody cares about

Sonic 4 leaked - Fans say physics are bad and music sucks

Sonic 4 leaked again - Fans complain EVEN MORE about physics, and now there was a mine-cart

Sonic 4 delayed to remove minecart etc. and improve physics - Some fans are pleased, other fans don't beleive it, and think SEGA are tolling

Sonic Colours comes from the left feild and blows people away - Fans happy. Some fans complain about the fact that it resembles the well recieved Unleashed Day-stages

I'd say fans have had some kind of influence over the decisions made with regards to the Main Sonic games.

Yes its SEGA's fault for not finishing the games and making sure they were good.

However, you can't deny how polarised the fanbase's desires were. complaining about something and demanding a change.

Though, knowing you, you'll probably shoot this down

[DistantJ]

Pre-ordered!

Also, can't anybody tell that the voiceover is saying "Colour!" when Sonic collects a Wisp, not 'cool' or 'c'mon'... And it's blatantly not Sonic's voice, when Sonic does some attacks you can hear Jason Griffith.

Edited June 17, 2010 by DistantJ

[Blue Blood]

For goodness sake. SA2 always had Tails. He just wasn't shown during the first trailer. Neither was Rouge or Shadow.

Fans have always had a very big influence in the hat the next Sonic game is. However, the thing is that SEGA never try to appeal to just what the fans are asking for, they try to make it better, and in doing so they make it much worse. go read over that list again and you should see what I mean.

EDIT: Very few people are complaining about Colours resembling the Unleashed day stages. And they are allowed to complain btw. I personally loved the them, but if people didn't then that's just fine too.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Tropical Resort Zone

[Phos]

Yes, but it is a valid conclusion.

SA1 was made - Fans wanted a better story

SA2 was shown at E3 - Fans complained about a lack of Tails.

SA2 was remade and now included tails - Fans thought it shouldn't be in the real world, and they should return to classic level styles

Sonic Heroes was made - Fans said it was too childish, and wanted something more serious

Shadow the Hedgehog was made - Fans thought it was TOO serious and guns were fail. They now wanted a return to roots

Sonic 06 was [half] made - Fans thought it was a pile of garbage and needed to improved.

Sonic Unleashed was teased/leaked - Fangasms

Sonic Unleashed was released - fans did not like the Werehog, they wanted another return to roots

Sonic "needlemouse" Announced - fangasms

Sonic 4 revealed - Most fans happy, but alot complained about "ugly" Green-eyed Sonic, made a crappy petition, nobody cares about

Sonic 4 leaked - Fans say physics are bad and music sucks

Sonic 4 leaked again - Fans complain EVEN MORE about physics, and now there was a mine-cart

Sonic 4 delayed to remove minecart etc. and improve physics - Some fans are pleased, other fans don't beleive it, and think SEGA are tolling

Sonic Colours comes from the left feild and blows people away - Fans happy. Some fans complain about the fact that it resembles the well recieved Unleashed Day-stages

I'd say fans have had some kind of influence over the decisions made with regards to the Main Sonic games.

Yes its SEGA's fault for not finishing the games and making sure they were good.

However, you can't deny how polarised the fanbase's desires were. complaining about something and demanding a change.

Though, knowing you, you'll probably shoot this down

I will, actually, because it's pretty obvious that you're searching for evidence to a predetermined conclusion.

[Nepenthe]

As for QTE's in general, Itagaki has a pretty funny thing about that, "If you're just going to put the button right there, why bother displaying anything else?" Obviously there are games that somewhat depend on them (Indigo Prophecy for one), but I personally don't like how most designers have them slow down the action, and they seem a bit out of place in a game with the sensibilities of a platformer. Why do we have a special event like moves him for you like that, considering that platformers are typically based around having control of your character on a relatively low level?

And QTE's first showed up, AFAIK, in Dragon's Lair. Don Bluth was the animator for it, in fact you can see that same backlighting effect he used in Secret of NIMH.

Compare them to Galaxy's Launch Star flights-- The are initiated by a simple action, and during the entire sequence complete control is wrestled away from the player; You cannot stop, turn around, change direction, or travel anywhere except the Launch Star's pre-determined path. This is despite the fact that the game still presents many other viable and more controllable options for travelling to different planets such as pull stars, gravitational fields, vehicle rides, and regular platforming segments. Thus, it is easy to conclude that the Launch Star flights are there primarily for the aesthetical appeal they add to the game. After all, many if not most of Galaxy's "wow" moments, like the convenient release of overhead solar flares as you're flying by a star, happen during a Launch Star flight.

There are a few obvious differences between QTEs and Launch Stars of course, but the similarities are more numerous and thus it proves my point that there is nothing wrong with automation for the sake of trying to aid the atmosphere, show off little brief moments of whimsy, or simply add an element of suspense to actions that would otherwise by mundane. If anything, this sudden and vicious crusade against any form of automation that has happened in recent years has definitely had me raising an eye-brow at folks.

(As for QTEs, I know of Dragon's Lair's attempts at them, but the game's QTEs didn't exactly set off a new trend in the way that Shenmue did, did it?)

[Tyranno]

Sonic hit phenomenal and kept it pegged from lava reef to Doomsday.

I also love how people like to blame the problems Sonic has on the fans as though it's some reasonable conclusion.

You continue devaluing that word. Sonic & Knuckles is a great game, but phenomenal? There's many more worthy games that fit that narrow category, and more often than not, personal taste is used in a way that devalues it.

And that isn't what I meant about the fans. Of course fandom has a role in how good a game appears to be. Super Mario Sunshine is a good, solid platform, but it's devalued by the response of the group of people frustrated with its differences from previous incarnations. This happened with Sonic to a much larger degree; decent games have been sullied in the public consciousness by people who don't apply any kinds of objectivity or fairness to the concept.

It's the fandom equivelant of "wikiality" or "truthiness." Any truth it might have is blown out of proportion in regards to its actual significance based on the "feelings" "emotions" and "beliefs" of people rather than anything consistent or fair.

Games like Sonic 06 and Sonic Genesis deserved whatever they got. Games like the Adventure series, Unleashed, the Rush series, and Colors and Sonic 4 certainly don't deserve this. Neither does Heroes, to an extent - hell, we don't even allow it the status of being "decently average."

Edited June 17, 2010 by Razorsaw

[Indigo Rush]

So, anyone else stoked that they can actually collect the rings that they drop, unlike Unleashed? No? Rather talk about the older games and how they could have been better?

Okay, I'll leave you all alone then.

[Doctor MK]

So, anyone else stoked that they can actually collect the rings that they drop, unlike Unleashed? No? Rather talk about the older games and how they could have been better?

Okay, I'll leave you all alone then.

The Wii version of Unleashed let you pick up dropped rings, didn't it? I forget.

Nevertheless it is an awesome and overlooked feature. Even more reason to love this game!

[PC the Hedgehog]

You continue devaluing that word. Sonic & Knuckles is a great game, but phenomenal? There's many more worthy games that fit that narrow category, and more often than not, personal taste is used in a way that devalues it.

And that isn't what I meant about the fans. Of course fandom has a role in how good a game appears to be. Super Mario Sunshine is a good, solid platform, but it's devalued by the response of the group of people frustrated with its differences from previous incarnations. This happened with Sonic to a much larger degree; decent games have been sullied in the public consciousness by people who don't apply any kinds of objectivity or fairness to the concept.

It's the fandom equivelant of "wikiality" or "truthiness." Any truth it might have is blown out of proportion in regards to its actual significance based on the "feelings" "emotions" and "beliefs" of people rather than anything consistent or fair.

Games like Sonic 06 and Sonic Genesis deserved whatever they got. Games like the Adventure series, Unleashed, the Rush series, and Colors and Sonic 4 certainly don't deserve this. Neither does Heroes, to an extent - hell, we don't even allow it the status of being "decently average."

*applauds*

That may just be the most reasonable thing I've ever read on a Sonic message board. The bad thing about the fanbase is that for so many fans, there's no level in between "super duper amazingly awesome" and "horrible piece of trash." What happened to the days when games could be "decent" or "okay" without being put on one end of the spectrum or the other?

Edited June 17, 2010 by PC the Hedgehog

[Phos]

Compare them to Galaxy's Launch Star flights-- The are initiated by a simple action, and during the entire sequence complete control is wrestled away from the player; You cannot stop, turn around, change direction, or travel anywhere except the Launch Star's pre-determined path. This is despite the fact that the game still presents many other viable and more controllable options for travelling to different planets such as pull stars, gravitational fields, vehicle rides, and regular platforming segments. Thus, it is easy to conclude that the Launch Star flights are there primarily for the aesthetical appeal they add to the game. After all, many if not most of Galaxy's "wow" moments, like the convenient release of overhead solar flares as you're flying by a star, happen during a Launch Star flight.

There are a few obvious differences between QTEs and Launch Stars of course, but the similarities are more numerous and thus it proves my point that there is nothing wrong with automation for the sake of trying to aid the atmosphere, show off little brief moments of whimsy, or simply add an element of suspense to actions that would otherwise by mundane. If anything, this sudden and vicious crusade against any form of automation that has happened in recent years has definitely had me raising an eye-brow at folks.

(As for QTEs, I know of Dragon's Lair's attempts at them, but the game's QTEs didn't exactly set off a new trend in the way that Shenmue did, did it?)

But the thing is, all that succeeding on one of the yellow ramps does is make Sonic go higher.

And the launch stars are reskinned warp pipes. I would describe them as essentially a connivence for the designer, they allow Mario to be sent to another part of the level without necessitating the design of a more complex means of conveyance.

You continue devaluing that word. Sonic & Knuckles is a great game, but phenomenal? There's many more worthy games that fit that narrow category, and more often than not, personal taste is used in a way that devalues it.

And that isn't what I meant about the fans. Of course fandom has a role in how good a game appears to be. Super Mario Sunshine is a good, solid platform, but it's devalued by the response of the group of people frustrated with its differences from previous incarnations. This happened with Sonic to a much larger degree; decent games have been sullied in the public consciousness by people who don't apply any kinds of objectivity or fairness to the concept.

It's the fandom equivelant of "wikiality" or "truthiness." Any truth it might have is blown out of proportion in regards to its actual significance based on the "feelings" "emotions" and "beliefs" of people rather than anything consistent or fair.

Games like Sonic 06 and Sonic Genesis deserved whatever they got. Games like the Adventure series, Unleashed, the Rush series, and Colors and Sonic 4 certainly don't deserve this. Neither does Heroes, to an extent - hell, we don't even allow it the status of being "decently average."

You say all this based on the random times when you pop in and make this very post. You pop in and say that naysayers aren't being objective, I always try to remain very objective, partly because that's how I think and partly because whiners will condemn me the moment I show signs of having an opinion.

You are the one not being objective. You claim that these games are actually not terrible and provide no explanation, blaming them for not being objective even though these game's problems can be demonstrated and compared to games that don't have them. You want a quick one for Sunshine? The hover nozzle offers no more life than the spin move that would eventually replace it and yet takes several times as long, making the game much slower than it would be otherwise.

The solution to almost every puzzle in the game is to stand back and spray it with water.

It required the player to retread the same ground too often, having seven mandatory stars in every level, and has the fewest levels total out of any 3D Mario.

The way Yoshi was implemented turned the game into something resembling an escort mission with a timer any time Yoshi's capabilities were necessary, which in almost all cases meant that one of those orange slices had to be cleared. Yoshi offered no notable benefit beyond this ability.

I can do this with any Sonic game you care to mention. Unleashed's day stages, for example, with very few exceptions these had no notable challenges beyond simple (usually one button) reaction tests or obstacles that required prior knowledge of the path ahead. They also offered extremely limited areas for the player to move in, frequently changing direction for the player. Not that it mattered, given that there would often only be one choice either way. Compared to Hyrdo Thunder, where to maintain a boost the player must hunt out secrets within the rather wide tracks that, while they only run one direction, allow the player to maneuver for themselves to demonstrably different results. Winning in Hydro Thunder also requires the player to know the track, but this is means to an end of being able to chain together all the secret boosts to win.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

You continue devaluing that word. Sonic & Knuckles is a great game, but phenomenal? There's many more worthy games that fit that narrow category, and more often than not, personal taste is used in a way that devalues it.

ITT, Razorsaw hates S3&K.

There's facts on the one hand and opinions on the other, but claiming that S3&K wasn't (isn't!) a phenomenal game stretches the bounds of credulity a bit.

Alas, in modern times, as Sonic fans we seem to have been conditioned to celebrate even mediocrity after a decade of sub-mediocre franchise, and the fact that Colours has near everyone drooling only proves it.

Colours is a pretty game that looks fun. But this is not ground-shattering brilliance; this is mediocrity. ALL videogames are supposed to be pretty and fun. It's only because Colours is the first Sonic game in a long while that actually looks half-competently made that people are fawning over it - when in fact this sort of thing is the bare minimum of what we should actually expect from a game.

That is utilises the graphical capacity of its platform well, and seems vaguely playable, are cause for equanimity, not celebration. "OK game, you seem (in this early, demonstration-grade outing) to work properly"; NOW start actually impressing me with the things you do beyond barebones playability.

...

1D linear gaming disguised as 3D?

Sub-QTE gimmickry?

Short level is short?

Well shit.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Scar]

ITT, Razorsaw hates S3&K.

There's facts on the one hand and opinions on the other, but claiming that S3&K wasn't (isn't!) a phenomenal game stretches the bounds of credulity a bit.

Alas, in modern times, as Sonic fans we seem to have been conditioned to celebrate even mediocrity after a decade of sub-mediocre franchise, and the fact that Colours has near everyone drooling only proves it.

Colours is a pretty game that looks fun. But this is not ground-shattering brilliance; this is mediocrity. ALL videogames are supposed to be pretty and fun. It's only because Colours is the first Sonic game in a long while that actually looks half-competently made that people are fawning over it - when in fact this sort of thing is the bare minimum of what we should actually expect from a game.

That is utilises the graphical capacity of its platform well, and seems vaguely playable, are cause for equanimity, not celebration. "OK game, you seem (in this early, demonstration-grade outing) to work properly"; NOW start actually impressing me with the things you do beyond barebones playability.

...

1D linear gaming disguised as 3D?

Sub-QTE gimmickry?

Short level is short?

Well shit.

Its like you're trying to find ways of not liking this game.

Why can't you wait till release and have fun? Isn't that the point of a video game?

Also "phenominal" is an opinion. S3K is by all accounts a great game. To fans it is "phenominal". To a Mario fan for example, it is merely great, they think that SMB 3 is phenominal.

Granted that is a bit of an over-generalistion, but it illustrates the point.

Somthing can be techincally good. Emotions can make it "phenominal" or "shit". Depends on which way you're looking at the whole isse.

Oh and, Colours is not 1 dimesional. Even if some parts are linear, they still go up, down and side-to-side. Therefore they cover the 3 axis of movement; Latitude, longitude and altitude.

1 Dimensional is not the correct word to use. The word you're looking for is linear

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Its like you're trying to find ways of not liking this game.

Why can't you wait till release and have fun? Isn't that the point of a video game?

You seem to be implying that because videogames are supposed to amuse us we should simply refuse to acknowledge it if we're not actually amazed and excited, which seems a staggering exercise in intellectual dishonesty.

1 Dimensional is not the correct word to use. The word you're looking for is linear

A straight line is 1 dimensional inside its own vector space, pal. Lern 2 Euclidian geometry.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Nepenthe]

But the thing is, all that succeeding on one of the yellow ramps does is make Sonic go higher.

And?

As I said, the mundanity of an action's effect is irrelevant as to why QTEs are rewarding to some people; It's the fact that a potential action has been given a blatant and thus more amplified risk of failure which adds a dramatic element to that action. Any movement performed as part of a QTE-- even something as simple as a jump-- demands a greater sense of awareness on part of the player because you are unaware as what the buttons will be. Thus, when they're performed successfully, they're more emotionally rewarding than they would be if that jump was simply left up to the player's devices where it would undoubtedly be performed much more unconsciously.

[Tyranno]

Calling Sonic & Knuckles a phenomenal painting is like calling an impressive piece of modern art in a moderate sized exhibition "phenomenal." Phenomenal is a word reserved the true hallmarks of the industry - single defining moments that end up shaping a genre. Sonic & Knuckles is a great game - perhaps even super great. But PHENOMENAL? I'd sooner reserve that for such games as Ocarina of Time, Super Mario 64... the games that continue to provide a benchmark for the adventure and platforming genres. Sonic & Knuckles is great, but it's also an exercise in accounting for the mistakes of executives cutting Sonic 3's development time and a dead end in terms of the creation of all new technology, and is, by itself, woefully incomplete without being combined with its two immediate predecessors. Of course, it makes up for these shortcomings in some ways, but even then. S&K is a great game, possibly THE BEST Sonic game, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's in that coveted top tier.

And it's not BAD being where it is. Neither is the Sonic franchise at its whole. This doesn't mean I don't appreciate the games, it's just that I'm aware of being somewhat meta about their actual place in things. Digimon is one of my favorite shows, but would I dare call it a phenomenal series? Hell no.

And Phos, I don't deny your ability to analyze. But at the core, your arguments often hinge on the fact that doing it one way as opposed to the original way is the problem. Fixating on minutae is not objectivity if you're not acting free from the bias that drives it in the first place, as can be shown in your repeated attempts to cast Sonic's current design in a negative light. And Nitrogen, your assessment there is FAR from objective, in that one, it assumes a degree of linearity is inherently bad, and two, clearly ignores (as in the case of Unleashed) the cases where it's clearly NOT.

[Frozen Nitrogen]

Phenomenology

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/phenomenal

ITT, pointless forays into semantics.

And Phos, I don't deny your ability to analyze. But at the core, your arguments often hinge on the fact that doing it one way as opposed to the original way is the problem. Fixating on minutae is not objectivity if you're not acting free from the bias that drives it in the first place, as can be shown in your repeated attempts to cast Sonic's current design in a negative light. And Nitrogen, your assessment there is FAR from objective, in that one, it assumes a degree of linearity is inherently bad, and two, clearly ignores (as in the case of Unleashed) the cases where it's clearly NOT.

You're using the fact that Phos' arguments are consistent as a point against him?

GG.

Linearity IS inherantly bad in a 3D game because - as I have tried to impress - a straight line is not 3D. You can either tout a game as 3D or tout it as linear, but these two things are mutually exclusive. As I said in another thread, the Sonic CD Special Stages are more 3D than Colours, because in the latter you're being railroaded down a unidirectional track for the majority of your gameplay.

You program in 3 dimensions for a reason. Only using one of them to any effect is an exercise in wasted opportunities.

This has been spelled out time and time again in discussions on Genesis vs. Rush level design. In the early Sonic games, leaping up or down the second dimension gave you whole new routes all over the level (not just in isolated wisp-dictated drill sand patches). Contrast to Rush, where there was one route along the only dimension that mattered: left --> right, and trying to deviate from the path would earn you a cheap pit death for your trouble. The second dimension was, at best, a place you visited with a jump before slamming back down onto the One True Path.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Frozen Nitrogen

[Diogenes]

Alas, in modern times, as Sonic fans we seem to have been conditioned to celebrate even mediocrity after a decade of sub-mediocre franchise, and the fact that Colours has near everyone drooling only proves it.

Funny, on my end it looks like "we" have been conditioned to reject anything that isn't our personal ideal, and to continuously shit on both any improvements and anyone who dares praise the improvements.

I swear, this fanbase is fucking diseased.