`Pre-owned games a bigger problem than piracy’

[Agent York]

One of the Alan Wake staff was talking about this.

Rental games are TERRIBLE for the industry, and so is buying used. The companies get no money for these sales, only the stores. It's only sold once then gets distributed again and again.

[Blacklightning]

It's not accessible.

Are you seriously trying to make this argument? Anyone with a basic grasp of the English language and an understanding of how a keyboard/typewriter works (ie: press letter key, letter appears onscreen) can surely sit through a code or two. I reiterate, this isn't difficult. Anyone who finds it so, likely hasn't been educated properly in general, let alone in computers and such.

The industry finally has a grasp on girls/pensioners/parents/younger children after trying so hard for so long, do you really think they'll mess all that up by forcing people to go buy a bunch of cards and enter a bunch of codes and scrolling through a bunch of online menus when they have noone to ask for advice other than premium phone lines? Keep in mind a large portion of these demographics are not exactly internet savvy.

That's down to interface design, mind you. It's not like it's impossible to make a bunch of menus and inputs that are noob friendly. Hell, the Wii does that pretty damn well without the kind of hand-holding some more core-based gamers would loathe.

Because they'll obviously stay open if they have nothing to sell right? Why else do 9/10 game stores refuse to stock the PSPGo?

I still don't understand why you're directing these arguments at me, I made no attempt to debate this point at all. Save your strawman arguments, please.

[SuperLink]

Are you seriously trying to make this argument? Anyone with a basic grasp of the English language and an understanding of how a keyboard/typewriter works (ie: press letter key, letter appears onscreen) can surely sit through a code or two. I reiterate, this isn't difficult. Anyone who finds it so, likely hasn't been educated properly in general, let alone in computers and such.

That's down to interface design, mind you. It's not like it's impossible to make a bunch of menus and inputs that are noob friendly. Hell, the Wii does that pretty damn well without the kind of hand-holding some more core-based gamers would loathe.

Again, I bring up technophobia. It really isn't very rare at all for people to not use computers or the internet, be unsure how to use it and such. There really isn't much I can say on top of what I've already said, but for people who like going to physical shops, like parents and girls, this is going to make gaming a more uncomfortable experience for one, rather than a side hobby it's something they need to be more involved with. What happened to the "pick up and play" mindset? "Sitting through a code" sounds like something those kinds of gamers simply won't bother with.

As for pensioners, once you make gaming a DD only thing that's it, you've lost them completely.

I have no doubt this is what would become of the new casual market if gaming became DD only, it would become more of a niche than it ever has been thanks to the lack of true global accessibility to all demographics. If you don't believe it you should pay more attention to them.

I still don't understand why you're directing these arguments at me, I made no attempt to debate this point at all. Save your strawman arguments, please.

The fact remains that if gaming were to go DD only, every major game chain would close, millions would lose their jobs, and game equipment would be limited to multimedia shops only, whereas music, film and book shops continue to thrive.

[Blacklightning]

Again, I bring up technophobia. It really isn't very rare at all for people to not use computers or the internet, be unsure how to use it and such.

Again, interface design. Simplify it enough for the people who don't know any better and that ceases to be an issue. Why are you automatically assuming that an online-only interface will be any more complicated than it is now? If the company is actively targetting casuals, they're not going to be stupid enough to make things that inaccessible to them. And frankly, if people have problems typing a code in anyway, it kinda begs the question of whether they're casual gamers or "why the fuck did you even pick up the controller" gamers.

What happened to the "pick up and play" mindset? "Sitting through a code" sounds like something those kinds of gamers simply won't bother with.

Then replace the codes with, oh I dunno, magnetic strips or something. I only brought up XBLA cards as an example method of making purchases without using your credit card online.

The fact remains that if gaming were to go DD only, every major game chain would close, millions would lose their jobs, and game equipment would be limited to multimedia shops only, whereas music, film and book shops continue to thrive.

And I never disagreed with this. Why do I have to keep on saying it?

[SuperLink]

Again, interface design. Simplify it enough for the people who don't know any better and that ceases to be an issue. Why are you automatically assuming that an online-only interface will be any more complicated than it is now? If the company is actively targetting casuals, they're not going to be stupid enough to make things that inaccessible to them. And frankly, if people have problems typing a code in anyway, it kinda begs the question of whether they're casual gamers or "why the fuck did you even pick up the controller" gamers.

Then replace the codes with, oh I dunno, magnetic strips or something. I only brought up XBLA cards as an example method of making purchases without using your credit card online.

Anyone who's ever worked in a game shop can attest to widespread consumer ignorance. Interface design will not affect those who are technophobic to begin with, then there are those who will need to buy/set up wireless routers, or huge ethernet cables, just to play a single video game. I'm not saying it'll have to be any more complicated, I'm saying it'll have to be far far simpler and easy to use than it is now for the casual audience to even consider using it.

As for "why the fuck did you even pick up the controller" gamers, that in itself is an alienation that a company like Nintendo would try to break down a wall for.

If the company is actively targetting casuals, then they're more likely to mass produce the game on a disc than make it DD only.

And I never disagreed with this. Why do I have to keep on saying it?

Because it's a terrible thing for so many people to lose jobs, and it's just one example of the industry's horrible greed.

And why DD only should never happen. I've never said more of a focus on DD it bad, but taking away any retail games is.

[Blacklightning]

Anyone who's ever worked in a game shop can attest to widespread consumer ignorance. Interface design will not affect those who are technophobic to begin with

You're talking about the kind of people who have never played a videogame in their life and are not likely to do so any time soon. It's like you're trying to force a hobby onto them, and I simply can't understand it.

then there are those who will need to buy/set up wireless routers, or huge ethernet cables, just to play a single video game.

Single? It's a one-time setup, and it's not like they have to set it back up again every time they change the disc or something. That's no better an argument than claiming a casual can't hook the power and AV cords up, and if they can't even get that far it's pretty clear that games in general aren't going to appeal to them regardless of how much companies try to suck up to them.

If the company is actively targetting casuals, then they're more likely to mass produce the game on a disc than make it DD only.

But of course, I'm just saying it's not as difficult to do both at once than you seem to give them credit for.

Because it's a terrible thing for so many people to lose jobs, and it's just one example of the industry's horrible greed.

And why DD only should never happen. I've never said more of a focus on DD it bad, but taking away any retail games is.

I. Am. Not. Disagreeing. With. You. Not once have I claimed that games should go DD only, not once have I claimed that retail games should simply disappear altogether in favour of it, and not once did I even make any kind of argument on the matter. How on earth you even managed to interpret that much from "oh hey, MSpoint cards are an alternative to credit cards", I have no idea. Just stop it. It's bad and all that people can lose their jobs over this, yes I get it, now direct it towards someone that doesn't actually agree with you on that matter for christ's sake.

[eXtaticus]

For a hater of EA and most of its software (such as myself), this is excellent news; roll on the boycotts, product removal (a la the dispute with Walmart and Sega in the '90s), circumvention, modifications and online protests!

It does, however, seem slightly odd that EA are banning buyers of pre-owned games from purchasing downloadable content; surely allowing users to pay for it even if they don't wish to shell out $10 for a pass card would make the company more cash than otherwise possible?

[SuperLink]

You're talking about the kind of people who have never played a videogame in their life and are not likely to do so any time soon. It's like you're trying to force a hobby onto them, and I simply can't understand it.

No I'm not, like I said, anyone who's ever worked in a game shop can attest to widespread consumer ignorance.

But of course, I'm just saying it's not as difficult to do both at once than you seem to give them credit for.

I. Am. Not. Disagreeing. With. You. Not once have I claimed that games should go DD only, not once have I claimed that retail games should simply disappear altogether in favour of it, and not once did I even make any kind of argument on the matter. How on earth you even managed to interpret that much from "oh hey, MSpoint cards are an alternative to credit cards", I have no idea. Just stop it. It's bad and all that people can lose their jobs over this, yes I get it, now direct it towards someone that doesn't actually agree with you on that matter for christ's sake.

All this time I've been arguing against the notion of DD only, so we've had a misunderstanding. I thought you were arguing for DD only, which is why I brought up other reasons for it being a bad thing.

I'm sorry. D:

But even then those parts of my posts weren't exactly aimed at you specifically and may as well be aimed at those who are in favour of DD-only

[JezMM]

I agree with SuperLink that this is a big deal in terms of audience. There ARE customers who are alright once in-game, but still technophobic about the UI. I'm sure there are PLENTY of casual Wii players, both children, parents and the old-aged, who have probably never touched the settings menu after the initial first-time setup upon purchase.

These are the people who are being alienated, and would need a ridiculously - more than you can possibly imagine - user-friendly interface to introduce downloads as a primary medium for download.

Edited May 20, 2010 by JezMM

[Saint Nathan]

All three main consoles do as far as I'm aware (as well as some of the handhelds), so I don't see what the issue is.

From what I understand, there is really only TWO handhelds, at least major ones. The DSi uses Wii points, and the PShop or whatever is on the PSP.

Everything uses points or DD somehow.

[LunarEdge]

I think I should clarify something, just in case anyone gets the wrong idea: I don't have that much of a problem with EA's plan on the PS3 and PC (especially for those assholes who jump at the chance to buy the $5-off games at Gamestop). But I find it utterly reprehensible for them to do it to 360 users.

Also, there is a pretty good article on Bitmob about this. While I don't agree with everything stated within, it does give a pretty good once-over of everything as it stands now.

Could you elaborate on that?

[Tornado]

The only thing paying for online play for PS3/Wii games is new games sales. As such, I have little problem with companies attempting to recoup the expenses that normally go unpaid when people buy games used on those two systems. However, the 360 already has people paying for online play, and Microsoft even says that XBox Live subscription money goes directly into paying for the expenses for multiplayer (servers, patches, etc.) that the "used game fee" is probably supposed to resolve. It is borderline criminal to charge 360 players a fee to play games online to cover the various expenses when the mere act of paying for XBox Live already takes care of them; and it basically amounts to EA charging a sin tax on people who buy used games.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Tornado

[LunarEdge]

^ Ahh thanx for clarifying

However, the money for XBL may go to all the expenses for online such as servers and patches but the money also goes towards constant maintenance and better overall online service (unless you label that under "etc."). Even so, developers are still losing out on the money when they are sold 2nd handily. The decision to make users pay for online was Microsoft's while making people pay to go online for that specific game was the game developers idea.

The Wii doesn't offer much when it comes to online play/support and the Ps3 has awesome free online play, which is paid for by the game sells, users buying expansions, extra content and etc. It does kinda suck that 360 users do have to pay more, but that's what happens I guess. Glad I'm a ps3/Wii user, despite that I own all three.

[Tornado]

I do understand that the costs to run multiplayer components probably exceed the income from XBox Live (which is probably set up like a general fund or something), but even if XBox users also needed to pay for used game activation they still logically shouldn't have to pay as much as PSWii owners.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Tornado

[LunarEdge]

^ even so, this whole fee thing is kinda gay in general

[Remy]

I agree with SuperLink that this is a big deal in terms of audience. There ARE customers who are alright once in-game, but still technophobic about the UI. I'm sure there are PLENTY of casual Wii players, both children, parents and the old-aged, who have probably never touched the settings menu after the initial first-time setup upon purchase.

These are the people who are being alienated, and would need a ridiculously - more than you can possibly imagine - user-friendly interface to introduce downloads as a primary medium for download.

Meh, the world doesn't exist to hold the hand of technophobic jerk idiots. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the redeem code button means,

If they don't wanna learn how to use the console properly, screw em, they can go without.

[SuperLink]

Meh, the world doesn't exist to hold the hand of technophobic jerk idiots. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what the redeem code button means,

If they don't wanna learn how to use the console properly, screw em, they can go without.

I don't particularly "care" about them myself, but the gaming industry does, they make up a pretty large portion of sales for the Wii and DS, and Sony and Microsoft would be mad to not try and get a bite of some of Nintendo's new jackpot.

The gaming industry is all about popularity and money, nothing else matters, just look at Nintendo, last gen they were a gamer's best friend, but this gen they make Wii Fit and Wii Music and Animal Crossing: Let's Port a DS game to the Wii, and call them "hardcore games" and then throw a fit when their fans aren't satisfied.

It's because really all they care about is getting as much money from their new audience as they can, while they can.

So if anything, gaming will be a race for who can become the most accessible, rather than the most digital or powerful.

Edited May 25, 2010 by SuperLink

[Remy]

The ridiculous amount of bank acti made selling cod map packs for a ridiculous price kinda say otherwise.

[SuperLink]

The ridiculous amount of bank acti made selling cod map packs for a ridiculous price kinda say otherwise.

That's not the same demographic as the one Nintendo has tapped into though. The CoD demographic =/= The Wii Fit/Nintendogs/Brain Training demographic.

i.e. the reason Nintendo is so ridiculously popular this gen.

[Remy]

you don't have to tap that market to survive though.

[SuperLink]

you don't have to tap that market to survive though.

No of course not, but when you see a potential business investment that makes you as much money as Nintendo's been making (read: ridiculous amounts), you're going to want to take it regardless of what your fanbase thinks.

Because at the end of the day you're running that business for money, not fans. Just look at how Ubisoft has been treating the Wii and DS.

Edited May 25, 2010 by SuperLink

[Remy]

Because at the end of the day you're running that business for money, not fans. Just look at how Ubisoft has been treating the Wii and DS.

Oh yeah, I'm sure people are just raving about Petz. I really doubt ubisoft's make shitty games for wii strategy is netting them loads of cash- I imagine the only reason they're afloat is because of the back up of semi decent real games every now and again.

People are only going to buy shitty games for so long. I'd argue that already a lot of the casual market is moving towards stuff like the iphone as opposed to a wii.

[Urtheart]

Oh yeah, I'm sure people are just raving about Petz

Depends on the definition of a fan. (wait you just changed what you said... damn it)

Yeah everyone that bought CoD4 MW2 on day of release could be considered a fan of the MW series but I bet you over 50% of them never played one before CoD4.

The same is true with the M&S olympic series.

Then let's take the next example, why did Iron Man sell so well? To say the game had fans would be bull.

The majority of sales of a game that breaks even are not from fans, they are from what is known as the general consensus I think, people who own the consoles and buy games based on the recomendations of either their friends or public media, they certainly could not be considered fans.

[SuperLink]

Oh yeah, I'm sure people are just raving about Petz. I really doubt ubisoft's make shitty games for wii strategy is netting them loads of cash- I imagine the only reason they're afloat is because of the back up of semi decent real games every now and again.

People are only going to buy shitty games for so long. I'd argue that already a lot of the casual market is moving towards stuff like the iphone as opposed to a wii.

People buy Petz and crap because they're imitations of Nintendo's Wii series and Brain Training and Nintendogs and etc. They still sell much better than most of Ubi's Wii hardcore games, and they certainly net a profit from the sounds of things, apparently it helps them to fund hardcore development on other systems.

Weak, I know.

Wii Fit/Sports/Etc aren't exactly "shitty", there's a reason Nintendo's games sell so much better, it's because they're actually really good (even if they're not my particular cup of tea)

Wii Fit Plus sold shitloads despite a relatively small marketing campaign and being mostly the same as the first game, I think that's proof enough that Nintendo still have a grasp of that audience.

Also Brain Training is still selling by the bucketload and it's a good 3 years old now.

[Urtheart]

Wii Fit/Sports/Etc aren't exactly "shitty", there's a reason Nintendo's games sell so much better, it's because they're actually really good (even if they're not my particular cup of tea)

Wii Fit Plus sold shitloads despite a relatively small marketing campaign and being mostly the same as the first game, I think that's proof enough that Nintendo still have a grasp of that audience.

Also Brain Training is still selling by the bucketload and it's a good 3 years old now.

Part of the reason these games are selling so well is because of the advertising, notice what games are being shown on TV? It's always Brain Training, Super Mario Bros or Nintendogs still. It's because those are the brands the common person associates with.

Regardless this is now completly off topic, back on the handlebars please.