Devil's Advocate: Sonic Unleashed is MUCH better then Sonic Adventure

[Cortez]

I think the main argument Unleashed supporters use is 'SONIC GOES FAST SO ITS GOOD' ignoring the fact that the gameplay is abysmal and near unplayable.

You said anyone who hasn't played a game before would struggle with Sonic 1, well I'd fucking love to see a non-gamer try to complete Unleashed! I've been playing games for practically my entire life and even I found Unleashed frustrating and difficult to play.

Go and play F-Zero GX then come back and tell us that the speed in Unleashed is handled tastefully; it isn't.

Adventure wins by default for actually being a game, I even had more fun with 06 than Unleashed. Just because Sonic CAN run at stupid speeds doesn't mean he SHOULD.

[JezMM]

I think the main argument Unleashed supporters use is 'SONIC GOES FAST SO ITS GOOD' ignoring the fact that the gameplay is abysmal and near unplayable.

You said anyone who hasn't played a game before would struggle with Sonic 1, well I'd fucking love to see a non-gamer try to complete Unleashed! I've been playing games for practically my entire life and even I found Unleashed frustrating and difficult to play.

Go and play F-Zero GX then come back and tell us that the speed in Unleashed is handled tastefully; it isn't.

Adventure wins by default for actually being a game, I even had more fun with 06 than Unleashed. Just because Sonic CAN run at stupid speeds doesn't mean he SHOULD.

I got all S ranks and 100% completion on both Wii and 360 of Unleashed and loved near every minute. If that's "unplayable" I guess we played different games.

Also F-Zero GX was boring and too hard. I like F-Zero X more. The scenery was too grand and far away from the track in GX, thus comes at the screen slower, which ruined the illusion of speed for me. It just made me feel small, not fast.

I love Unleashed because you have the familiarity of the envioronment whizzing past you to enhance the speed. Completing a complicated level (and trust me, the hard versions of the regular levels are COMPLICATED) while keeping at a high speed is something really unique and satisfying that I think only Sonic could do in a video-game.

It's also nice to see people acknowledging that trial and error has always been apparent in Sonic games. It always annoys me when retrofans say that it never existed before Adventure 2.

I will admit it didn't exist much in Adventure 1, but that's because that game was, to be quite frank, really damn easy and slow.

I love modern Sonic games, and Unleashed was the ultimate one. In both difficulty and fun-ness. It really pushed me to my limit without ever being crazy unreasonable.

Edited January 14, 2010 by JezMM

[Blacklightning]

It's also nice to see people acknowledging that trial and error has always been apparent in Sonic games. It always annoys me when retrofans say that it never existed before Adventure 2.

Regardless of whether or not that much is true, it's certaintly the point where the games started unavoidably killing you for it. Most early examples of Sonic T&E result in a loss of rings if you're unlucky (that fucking monkey bot in Emerald Hill probably has to be my earliest experience with it), and hell, it's not uncommon for it to result simply in a slightly less convenient route instead. In Unleashed, you can fall literally beyond the point of no return before a lethal hazard is even fully onscreen. Mind you, this is coming from someone who actually enjoyed the game, which is really saying something. It's not nearly as much of a problem when you can see it coming, which is why the majority of Unleashed's fun comes long after you've beaten the game, but I can definently see how it'd turn off first-time players, and it could easily have been avoided if hazards were percievable in some form within a reasonable window of player reaction times, rather than requiring you to learn level layouts the hard way.

[Candescence]

I have to side with those who have called out Unleashed's terrible design. While Trial and Error does occur in earlier games (Sonic 2, for example), such examples are often disliked. Unleashed takes it up to eleven, and I hate it for it, I haven't touched the damn game since I finished it because I didn't enjoy it, unlike Adventure, where I spent a lot of time on DX after completing the game.

[Octarine]

Sonic Adventure was a pretty good introduction for the series into 3D, all things considered, and like Super Mario 64 or Ocarina of Time, it gets some automatic kudos from me for that. Station Square's music still warms my heart, and the cutscenes (weirdly blocked and acted as they are) never cease to amuse me. Really, though, I enjoy Unleashed more.

I'm a sucker for gigantic production values like Unleashed had, I'll admit. It was burdened from the start by an ill-conceived idea, but what was there was executed very well. The writing and acting were some of the best the series has seen in a while, even if the story itself was simple, and glitches were rare. The opening cutscene was (completely shallow here, yeah) gorgeous. The flaws that were present existed mostly in the concepts and not in the implementation, and I think that's a good step for the series regardless of which side of this cheap-deaths divide you stand on.

I liked both games' gameplay styles for what they were, but I still enjoyed Unleashed's more. The feeling of speed it provides more than makes up for the frustration of the occasional blindside. I think that's the crux of why I like Unleashed more, really. It really felt like Sonic in spite of the unnecessary Werehog gimmick, and at a point when the series has been sorely lacking it for a while, that feeling is more important to me than the math of gameplay mechanics. I paid to see a cartoon hedgehog go fast and fight a silly fat man, dammit, and that's what I finally got.

...that said, Perfect Chaos was a much better final boss. Dark Gaia's fight made a better cutscene, but its billion gameplay types and huge quick-time events can go right to hell.

[Kintor]

Regardless of whether or not that much is true, it's certaintly the point where the games started unavoidably killing you for it. Most early examples of Sonic T&E result in a loss of rings if you're unlucky (that fucking monkey bot in Emerald Hill probably has to be my earliest experience with it), and hell, it's not uncommon for it to result simply in a slightly less convenient route instead. In Unleashed, you can fall literally beyond the point of no return before a lethal hazard is even fully onscreen. Mind you, this is coming from someone who actually enjoyed the game, which is really saying something. It's not nearly as much of a problem when you can see it coming, which is why the majority of Unleashed's fun comes long after you've beaten the game, but I can definently see how it'd turn off first-time players, and it could easily have been avoided if hazards were percievable in some form within a reasonable window of player reaction times, rather than requiring you to learn level layouts the hard way.

I can’t say that I agree with, I found Sonic Unleashed to be a very forgiving Sonic game. Every single challenge has an obvious and intuitive counter, introduced by Sonic Team well before that skill itself is needed. This is most clearly seen through Sonic’s upgrades, you get the light dash etc before the skill is needed in a level; the game will even tell you when you do not yet have the requisite upgrade to play a level. Besides, Sonic Team has really done their best to make sure you know what is coming, well before the danger is on screen. Just look at the early grinding sections, an image of the button you need to press appears on screen, giving you seconds to prepare for a ‘sudden’ change of course. As learning curves go, my experiences with Sonic Unleashed have been entirely good. Like any good game I was challenge but had fun the whole time, even as I was loosing.

[Candescence]

This is going to turn into yet another one of those arguments again, isn't it?

[Adamis]

I think the main argument Unleashed supporters use is 'SONIC GOES FAST SO ITS GOOD' ignoring the fact that the gameplay is abysmal and near unplayable.

Adventure wins by default for actually being a game, I even had more fun with 06 than Unleashed. Just because Sonic CAN run at stupid speeds doesn't mean he SHOULD.

Just because you have a dash button doesn't mean you HAVE to use it for the entire level !

Almost every daytime level can be finished without using the dash (bar some areas where it is needed, like running on water...heh, it's the gimmick after all !).

You obviously seem to prefer the Adventure style of gameplay, as you said you enjoyed Sonic 06 more. That's great for you. But Unleashed has a different style of gameplay and I really don't know why people want to compare them. Compare SA1 with 06, that I'll understand !

[Blacklightning]

Every single challenge has an obvious and intuitive counter, introduced by Sonic Team well before that skill itself is needed.

Not sure if we're playing different games here, but I'm seeing quite the opposite for the most part. Hell, the very premise of the game is a beginner's trap, because it punishes you for using the game's main gimmick (the boost), even when used in a logical fashion. Oh hey, here's a nice clean straight path, I guess I can boost through it just fine without worry OH WAIT LETHAL POTHOLE too late. This isn't helped by the fact that the first three or so continents are literally "hold X" fests (excluding the optional acts, which have a tendency to be absolute murderfests of their own right) by the time the difficulty curve suddenly spikes faster than a Green Hill speedrun in fastforward. And that's just the basics.

I'd like to hear you elaborate on what "intuitive" counter Sonic Team have made for overcoming instakilling obstacles that aren't even onscreen for long enough to be recognised (Phos had a sciency-type experiment regarding average human reaction time and Unleashed's expectations but I can't remember where it is). Don't even bother if that's anything along the lines of "dying first so you know it'll be there later".

This is most clearly seen through Sonic’s upgrades, you get the light dash etc before the skill is needed in a level;

Not that it helps the first instance you have to use the ability in an actual level, it's along a line of ring suspended in the air above a death pit with absolutely no prior indication that it'll be there. Again, window of opportunity is pretty small, especially when you consider aformentioned difficulty curve.

Besides, Sonic Team has really done their best to make sure you know what is coming, well before the danger is on screen.

Every level from Empire City to Eggmanland strongly disagrees.

Just look at the early grinding sections, an image of the button you need to press appears on screen, giving you seconds to prepare for a ‘sudden’ change of course.

Yeah, that was a pretty neat feature to have. Pity they stopped using it after Spagonia, where it definently would've been handier.

[Kintor]

Nonsense, the boost is a very easy to use feature. At least it is if you understand one simple concept – only use the boost as needed! Don’t just spam this one move for the whole level, that’s just not how the game is meant to be played. Learning to use each move sparingly, Sonic Team has provide for a host of different moves, some will work in a given situation others will not. The boost works best in conjunction with other moves; it is never the entire solution to a problem. As an example, while in the 3D sections use the boost in conjunction with the quick step, dodging obstacles rather then plowing straight threw them. Of course, at its heart Sonic Unleashed is a platformer; don’t be afraid to jump when needed. I think you’ll find that the boost works best when applied with some basic common sense, there is a time for running and a time for jumping.

Now, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a fairly easy game to learn. Sonic Team has made sure to provide all the help possible, while still offering a challenge for gamers. The early levels are full of hints, images put up at the appropriate moments, telling you how to play each and every section of the game. This is why Chip exists after all; he provides a means of telling the player how to play the game; think of him as a kind of an Omochao mk2, much easier to get along with. Certainly, these helps guides do disappear towards the end of the game, as they should. Games are about providing the player with ever escalating challenges, the developers must provide less help as the player becomes more competent. You can’t expect Sonic Team to keep the training wheels on forever.

[Blacklightning]

Nonsense, the boost is a very easy to use feature.

I never argued that it wasn't. That doesn't change the fact it causes more deaths than is really justified at all, usually as a punishment for not being precognitive.

At least it is if you understand one simple concept – only use the boost as needed! Don’t just spam this one move for the whole level, that’s just not how the game is meant to be played.

"How the game is meant to be played"? Where have you been? The game is practically coined as a paragon of speed for christ's sake. If it wasn't meant to be spammed, then surely ST would've made some effort to reinforce that standard. Obviously they didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be bitching.

Learning to use each move sparingly, Sonic Team has provide for a host of different moves, some will work in a given situation others will not.

Sadly, none of those actions substitute for the Boost most of the time - save for the Homing Attack, which is in itself an incredibly game-cheapening move. Everything else is context-oriented, which could easily be forgiven if there were actually more contexts to use them in (yet AGAIN, almost universally requires near-omnipotent knowledge of the level layout to overcome competently, but at least they don't usually kill you for failing).

The boost works best in conjunction with other moves; it is never the entire solution to a problem.

There's not a whole lot in the game you can't fix by holding X, and on the occasions it isn't, it's usually because of areas specifically designed to be speed killers - and needless to say, those are few and far between. Oh yeah, and those retarded buttons that take three stomps to fully trigger.

As an example, while in the 3D sections use the boost in conjunction with the quick step, dodging obstacles rather then plowing straight threw them. Of course, at its heart Sonic Unleashed is a platformer; don’t be afraid to jump when needed. I think you’ll find that the boost works best when applied with some basic common sense, there is a time for running and a time for jumping.

None of that helps when you can't see obstacles approaching in time.

Now, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a fairly easy game to learn.

I don't think anyone has argued anything to the contrary - an incredibly simple game can have absolutely banal and unforgiving level design and learning curves too, ya know. Case in point, I Wanna Be The Guy (okay, the murderous difficulty was deliberate, but no less a proof of concept).

Games are about providing the player with ever escalating challenges, the developers must provide less help as the player becomes more competent.

The problem is that they don't develop the learning curve for the player to become competent enough for the later stages, combined with the absolutely ridiculous insta-death hazards that are impossible to see or predict in a reasonable timeframe. I don't expect the game to hold anyone's hand either, but some of the expectations the game holds come Holaska are just plain stupid.

[XavierRussell]

Nonsense, the boost is a very easy to use feature. At least it is if you understand one simple concept – only use the boost as needed! Don’t just spam this one move for the whole level, that’s just not how the game is meant to be played. Learning to use each move sparingly, Sonic Team has provide for a host of different moves, some will work in a given situation others will not. The boost works best in conjunction with other moves; it is never the entire solution to a problem. As an example, while in the 3D sections use the boost in conjunction with the quick step, dodging obstacles rather then plowing straight threw them. Of course, at its heart Sonic Unleashed is a platformer; don’t be afraid to jump when needed. I think you’ll find that the boost works best when applied with some basic common sense, there is a time for running and a time for jumping.

Now, I think that Sonic Unleashed is a fairly easy game to learn. Sonic Team has made sure to provide all the help possible, while still offering a challenge for gamers. The early levels are full of hints, images put up at the appropriate moments, telling you how to play each and every section of the game. This is why Chip exists after all; he provides a means of telling the player how to play the game; think of him as a kind of an Omochao mk2, much easier to get along with. Certainly, these helps guides do disappear towards the end of the game, as they should. Games are about providing the player with ever escalating challenges, the developers must provide less help as the player becomes more competent. You can’t expect Sonic Team to keep the training wheels on forever.

Agreed. I really can't understand all this Unleashed bashing. Matter of fact, before they throw something crazy at you they even give you an extra life so I really don't see the problem here.

Edited January 14, 2010 by XavierRussell

[Cortez]

Agreed. I really can't understand all this Unleashed bashing. Matter of fact, before they throw something crazy at you they even give you an extra life so I really don't see the problem here.

That's... incredibly poor game design and an extra life doesn't justify it all.

Like has been said many times before; Unleashed punishes you for playing the game how it was obviously meant to played. If you're going to make a game where you move at incredibly high speeds at least design the stages to accomodate for that.

At least if you die in Adventure more often than not it's your own fault, if you die in Unleashed it's usually because you've slammed into something you didn't know was there or flung yourself off the side of the stage whilst boosting.

Don't even get me fucking started on the bobsleigh and 2D sections of Eggmanland by the way, those were the single most frustrating parts of the entire game and were horribly designed. Those blocks that push you off the stage were a horrible idea.

[Kintor]

No offense Backlighting, but I find what your saying to be very hard to believe, you are greatly exaggerating and misrepresenting Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay. It’s wrong to focus on any one part of Sonic’s gameplay; the boost by itself does not make a game. Neither to does a single platform make a level, each and every obstacle works together to make an interesting challenge. Sonic Team set out to make an entirely new Sonic game, one that combined some old ideas but also added quite a few new ones. Sonic Unleashed is more then the sum of its parts, trying to dissect a single feature will not reveal anything about the game.

When I play Sonic Unleashed I see a whole game, no features stand out more then any other, it is a game not a gameplay mechanic. Sonic Unleashed is fun to play because of the boost, the quickstep, the homing attack, the light speed dash and every other trick that Sonic has up his sleeve. Each level is great because they combined solid platforming, fast paced routes and the power of the hedgehog engine. Everything about this game is well made, as a product it is highly polished; Sonic Team took an idea to its logical conclusion, making this game the best it can be. Sonic Unleashed can stand on its own as a great Sonic game because everything works as intended, everything works together.

Some people say that a game is just about the gameplay, this isn’t necessarily true. A game is more then a succession of levels and a character that navigates the game’s virtual environment. Sonic Unleashed is also a great game because of each feature that supports the main game. Sega’s CGI team has produced what I see as truly beautiful cutscenes, Sonic Unleashed’s intro could give Pixar a run for their money. Even the story itself deserves to be acknowledged. Sonic Unleashed does not have a ground breaking plot but it doesn’t need to, the game is an old fashioned Saturday morning good vs. evil tale; it was a simple story but told well, this is all that should be expected from a Sonic game. Heck, even the menu’s ad something to the game, you can see the whole world (and with it each day and night level) rotating. All this helps make what I view as one of the best Sonic games ever made.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Kintor

[Candescence]

Kintor, Kintor, Kintor. Missing the point, yet again. Why am I not surprised?

No offense Backlighting, but I find what your saying to be very hard to believe, you are greatly exaggerating and misrepresenting Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay. It’s wrong to focus on any one part of Sonic’s gameplay; the boost by itself does not make a game. Neither to does a single platform make a level, each and every obstacle works together to make an interesting challenge. Sonic Team set out to make an entirely new Sonic game, one that combined some old ideas but also added quite a few new ones. Sonic Unleashed is more then the sum of its parts, trying to dissect a single feature will not reveal anything about the game.

Except, the boost is such a prevailing move that dissecting it will reveal a good deal, really.

When I play Sonic Unleashed I see a whole game, no features stand out more then any other, it is a game not a gameplay mechanic. Sonic Unleashed is fun to play because of the boost, the quickstep, the homing attack, the light speed dash and every other trick that Sonic has up his sleeve.

Only three of those are used regularly. Guess which ones. The rest take a back seat.

Each level is great because they combined solid platforming,

There's not much actual platforming in the daytime stages, I think.

fast paced routes

One big-ass linear route with extremely short detours, quite a few of them obviously bad and hard to avoid, to boot.

power of the hedgehog engine.

Which contributes extremely little to gameplay, if at all.

Everything about this game is well made,

You're joking, right? Seriously?

as a product it is highly polished; Sonic Team took an idea to its logical conclusion, making this game the best it can be. Sonic Unleashed can stand on its own as a great Sonic game because everything works as intended, everything works together.

Something working as intended doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Some people say that a game is just about the gameplay, this isn’t necessarily true.

It's the foundation for everything in a game. If the gameplay sucks, nothing else can save the game from sucking.

A game is more then a succession of levels and a character that navigates the game’s virtual environment. Sonic Unleashed is also a great game because of each feature that supports the main game. Sega’s CGI team has produced what I see as truly beautiful cutscenes, Sonic Unleashed’s intro could give Pixar a run for their money. Even the story itself deserves to be acknowledged. Sonic Unleashed does not have a ground breaking plot but it doesn’t need to, the game is an old fashioned Saturday morning good vs. evil tale; it was a simple story but told well, this is all that should be expected from a Sonic game. Heck, even the menu’s ad something to the game, you can see the whole world (and with it each day and night level) rotating. All this helps make what I view as one of the best Sonic games ever made.

All of this is completely irrelevant to this argument. Why did you even bring this up? Production values do not make a game, gameplay does, everything else is merely icing on top of the cake, but I wouldn't eat a cake of shit even if the icing was superb.

Edited January 14, 2010 by The Sniper

[Blacklightning]

No offense Backlighting, but I find what your saying to be very hard to believe, you are greatly exaggerating and misrepresenting Sonic Unleashed’s gameplay.

Well, actions speak louder than words...

This is Empire City, one of the later stages in the game. You may notice that aside from one curve near the beginning of the level, the X button is almost never released (and mind you, this isn't even the best run out there). I'm not overexaggerating a damn thing here - the boost expects to be abused every possible opportunity, then the game kicks you in the face for doing exactly what's expected of you.

Case in point.

Cut to around the 2:50 mark. Using the boost is the only way of traversing this body of water here. Not only are there practically random patterns of damaging geysers about the place (I'm not aware if they actually ARE randomly placed, but to a first-time player they might as well be either way), there are also ruined pillars along the sides of the path that collapse completely without warning or any visible method of avoiding them. Both of these hazards kill you instantly if you touch them, due to loss of speed required to stay afloat, and we all know Sonic reacts to submerging in water like a fucking Berocca.

Skip to 3:20 or so. Springs that randomly flip to reveal spikes, oh my, isn't that fucking devious? They could've gotten away with that if not for the fact they're suspended above a death pit, and screwing up, again, results in almost certain death. This isn't related to the Boost but it's still horrible trial-and-error all the same. Also note the QTE launcher at 3:30 is set above a death pit with a short opportunity window too - most first-timers only manage that bit through sheer luck.

Starting at 3:55, the big kicker. On the left side of this straightway is a unexplainable death pit with absolutely no prior warning, in a hazard setup displayed previously by other levels as safe to boost through (depending on how well you can avoid mines, but most people are good enough at that by this point, at the very least). It is only onscreen for a small amount of frames at this speed. There's nothing even feasibly fair about this setup.

The bit at 4:00 is just gold, even though it doesn't kill you. Like the above, it's only onscreen for a horrifically small amount of time, leaving you to either crawl slowly underneath or to retrace your steps for a decent run-up to a proper slide. Bearing in mind this is an obstacle you should feasibly be able to pass over. Again at 4:20 for the rainbow rings onscreen for a fraction of a second, forcing you to backtrack or take the hideously slow way.

At 4:44, a death pit within moments of the platform you're auto-springed to. It is barely visible even at non-boost speeds, and has resulted in some cheap deaths about the place.

@5:45, isn't that nice, Homing Attack chaining across a death pit against enemies with projectile attacks. To be fair, most people can manage this bit, but it requires you to act almost immediately, and considering the slippery ground controls and the narrow platforms above instant death you start on, it's not surprising to see someone to get shot and fall right into the abyss before they even realise their enemies can even shoot to begin with.

This is just one level. One fucking level. This kind of crap is stretched over the majority of levels mid-to-endgame, and it is inexcusable. I believe the Sniper said everything else I could've hoped to bring up.

[XavierRussell]

Well, actions speak louder than words...

This is Empire City, one of the later stages in the game. You may notice that aside from one curve near the beginning of the level, the X button is almost never released (and mind you, this isn't even the best run out there). I'm not overexaggerating a damn thing here - the boost expects to be abused every possible opportunity, then the game kicks you in the face for doing exactly what's expected of you.

Case in point.

Cut to around the 2:50 mark. Using the boost is the only way of traversing this body of water here. Not only are there practically random patterns of damaging geysers about the place (I'm not aware if they actually ARE randomly placed, but to a first-time player they might as well be either way), there are also ruined pillars along the sides of the path that collapse completely without warning or any visible method of avoiding them. Both of these hazards kill you instantly if you touch them, due to loss of speed required to stay afloat, and we all know Sonic reacts to submerging in water like a fucking Berocca.

Skip to 3:20 or so. Springs that randomly flip to reveal spikes, oh my, isn't that fucking devious? They could've gotten away with that if not for the fact they're suspended above a death pit, and screwing up, again, results in almost certain death. This isn't related to the Boost but it's still horrible trial-and-error all the same. Also note the QTE launcher at 3:30 is set above a death pit with a short opportunity window too - most first-timers only manage that bit through sheer luck.

Starting at 3:55, the big kicker. On the left side of this straightway is a unexplainable death pit with absolutely no prior warning, in a hazard setup displayed previously by other levels as safe to boost through (depending on how well you can avoid mines, but most people are good enough at that by this point, at the very least). It is only onscreen for a small amount of frames at this speed. There's nothing even feasibly fair about this setup.

The bit at 4:00 is just gold, even though it doesn't kill you. Like the above, it's only onscreen for a horrifically small amount of time, leaving you to either crawl slowly underneath or to retrace your steps for a decent run-up to a proper slide. Bearing in mind this is an obstacle you should feasibly be able to pass over. Again at 4:20 for the rainbow rings onscreen for a fraction of a second, forcing you to backtrack or take the hideously slow way.

At 4:44, a death pit within moments of the platform you're auto-springed to. It is barely visible even at non-boost speeds, and has resulted in some cheap deaths about the place.

@5:45, isn't that nice, Homing Attack chaining across a death pit against enemies with projectile attacks. To be fair, most people can manage this bit, but it requires you to act almost immediately, and considering the slippery ground controls and the narrow platforms above instant death you start on, it's not surprising to see someone to get shot and fall right into the abyss before they even realise their enemies can even shoot to begin with.

This is just one level. One fucking level. This kind of crap is stretched over the majority of levels mid-to-endgame, and it is inexcusable. I believe the Sniper said everything else I could've hoped to bring up.

So do you want to be able to play through the whole game while being alert as a tree stump? Not having to really focus or do much of anything, scoffing at any obstacle or enemy thrown your way and S ranking everything because theres no way your going to die right? Cuz thats how SA1 is and I'd MUCH rather play that amazing game you just posted vids of than anything in SA1. Seriously. So you died while you were playing, big whoop we all have. And this all really depends on the person. Half the stuff you complained about didn't bother me one bit.

And lol at getting hit by an enemy (other than the electric bot thing) while homing attack across them. That has NEVER happened to me. And can you honestly say that running through a gauntlet such as that is NOT more satisfying than playing something like Red Mountain or Speed Highway?? The later was linear until it's final area and it didnt really matter at that point. Again, I didnt care because back then, Speed Highway was awesome.

Edited January 14, 2010 by XavierRussell

[Candescence]

Oh, God, first Kintor, now you? How many people are going to miss the point?

So do you want to be able to play through the whole game while being alert as a tree stump? Not having to really focus or do much of anything, scoffing at any obstacle or enemy thrown your way and S ranking everything because theres no way your going to die right?

What, are you serious? You have got to be kidding me. Me and Blacklightning want a fair challenge, not the bullshit Unleashed throws at you.

Cuz thats how SA1 is and I'd MUCH rather play that amazing game you just posted vids of than anything in SA1. Seriously. So you died while you were playing, big whoop we all have. And this all really depends on the person.

At least SA1 is fair, and even if it is "easy", at least it's not frustrating. Dying because of your own fault is one thing, but we're complaining about circumstances where it's the game's fault.

Half the stuff you complained about didn't bother me one bit.

Are you sure you're human? I can't imagine that sort of stuff not frustrating the hell out of someone.

And lol at getting hit by an enemy (other than the electric bot thing) while homing attack across them. That has NEVER happened to me.

Surely you're joking. The shots are very fast, making it difficult to avoid before you start chaining the homing attacks, and as previously mentioned, that's if the player even knows those enemies can even shoot to begin with.

And can you honestly say that running through a gauntlet such as that is NOT more satisfying than playing something like Red Mountain or Speed Highway?? The later was linear until it's final area and it didnt really matter at that point. Again, I didnt care because back then, Speed Highway was awesome.

Such a gauntlet is hell, and I never want to attempt it ever again, because I honestly never found it any fun, unlike the SA1 stages you just mentioned.

Edited January 14, 2010 by The Sniper

[XavierRussell]

Oh, God, first Kintor, now you? How many people are going to miss the point?

What, are you serious? You have got to be kidding me. Me and Blacklightning want a fair challenge, not the bullshit Unleashed throws at you.

Never when I played through that game did I sit there and blame the games design or anything of the sort for dying. If I died, I died. Hit a spike? Jump it next time. That's how Sonic games have always been to me and Unleashed was no different. the only thing in that game I didn't think was fair was Eggmanland. That level wanted you to master every mechanic to ultimate percision, and yea that was asking a bit much. But, all the other levels were fun as hell from my first run onward. they all were fair to me and I honestly didn't feel like the game didn't give me enough of a heads up. Oh and get this, if I was feeling skeptical of an area, I'd SLOW DOWN for a second. Even releasing boost for a good second can make a world of difference.

At least SA1 is fair, and even if it is "easy", at least it's not frustrating. Dying because of your own fault is one thing, but we're complaining about circumstances where it's the game's fault.

Well of course, you can't have an easy game that's also unfair. That'd be a contradiction. The stages in SA didn't really feel like they were trying to impede you at all, and if they did try it was pointless. I enjoyed the heightened reflexes and awareness that Unleashed required and everyone I've personally had play the game (Non-gamers,Gamers,Sonic bandwagon haters, you name it.) were thrilled by it. And yanno what? When they died, they didn't go "Oh damn this game design to hell!" They said, "Oh how do you quick step again?? L1, R1?? Ok ok lemme try this again >=D" that particular situation was a friend of mine who never played before and that I threw into Jungle Joyride telling him it was lvl 2. Just for LOLz. He finished the stage and loved it, dying and all. That's the feeling Unleashed gives off I'm trying to convey to you.

Are you sure you're human? I can't imagine that sort of stuff not frustrating the hell out of someone.

Consider me a special case if you wish. I'd always wanted the 3-D games to be harder. As soon as those trailers started rolling in and I saw all the stuff whizzing by and all the percision it looked like it required I knew Sonic Team had finally made my ideal Sonic game. Playing it myself simply confirmed it. Now if only Nintendo would do the same for a Zelda game...

Surely you're joking. The shots are very fast, making it difficult to avoid before you start chaining the homing attacks, and as previously mentioned, that's if the player even knows those enemies can even shoot to begin with.

No I'm not, I've never been hit there or by the ones at the start. It's not that big a deal. Those lil things are nothing to worry about in that game. Now the Missile launching guys did piss me off. Electric shield guys too.

Such a gauntlet is hell, and I never want to attempt it ever again, because I honestly never found it any fun, unlike the SA1 stages you just mentioned.

That's my favorite stage in the game. It's beautiful. I replay it all the time, that "hellish level". Why don't we just agree that Eggmanland is hell, because it is. But at the same time I was thinking "Eggman isn't fucking around with this place! o.O" and stuck with it. It has it's moments, and deleivers the same kind of thrills as the other levels.

Ok take that for emample. My favorite level in SA1. I always thought of it as the "fast" level and couldn't wait to load it up. Looking at it now though, up until the last section of the level Sonic is just running through a slight half pipe with no obstacles to impede him, and that's what I didn't like. Throw a spike in his path maybe? Nah just run. maybe a few robots? Nah, just run. I like Unleashed so much because it took IMO the concept of Speed highway from SA, the boost from Rush (another game I love), upped the speed and provided a CHALLENGE! nothing in that was a challenge for me ever! Even when I was 10 first playing the game. The challenge didn't come until I tried beating my old times and doing the different shortcuts, like how he spindashs off the first platforms rail. It was not a bad game at all thats not what I'm saying. Unleashed just took what it started and made it more awesome IMO!

>.> And seriously...(I couldn't resist.)

Brought SA down alot. Was it to get more people to consider Sega's fishing games? Or because they may have been popular? IDK, but if I wanted to play Sega bass fishing I would play Sega bass fishing...

Edited January 14, 2010 by XavierRussell

[JezMM]

The Sniper, you linked to S rank videos. Of course they're holding boost down all the way through - they are prepared for it and aiming to get a high score. You shouldn't be holding down boost all the way through if you're playing for the first time.

All I can agree with is that the amount you are meant to use the boost is poorly communicated. The game should have made it clear with messages like "Be careful not to use the boost all the time! Going fast means you can't see what's ahead of you!"

To be fair, the only time the game TELLS you use the boost is before enemy hordes or water. If it's possible to die due to boost at these points then fair enough, but aside from that, it is totally up to the player's disgression, and as much as I hate to keep pulling the personal card on this (and by no means do I intend to come off as "I find it easy so you suck" at all), but -I- sure as hell didn't think to hold down the boost all the time on my first playthrough, and I think that's why I never remember thinking "That wasn't fair, I didn't see that coming!" when I died.

Only level I can think of where you're forced to boost meaning hazards might be hard to see is the shoots of water on Adabat, but to be fair, that's the penultimate level, and I worked out pretty quickly that carefully tapping boost as I went across the water kept me afloat without obscuring my vision.

Additionally, in response to "trial and error didn't kill you back in the old days", I have to be honest - if there were as few bottomless pits in 3D Sonic as there are in 2D Sonic, it'd be way too easy. Though I do think they should at least be nice and perhaps in future games make it so falling down a pit just costs you your rings, it fades to black, and places you back in front of the pit you fell down, rather than at the last checkpoint. Only falling with no rings sends you back to checkpoint.

Edited January 14, 2010 by JezMM

[Tornado]

Oh goody, are petty assholes going to descend on this thread and downrate everyone like in the other one?

I'd like to hear you elaborate on what "intuitive" counter Sonic Team have made for overcoming instakilling obstacles that aren't even onscreen for long enough to be recognised (Phos had a sciency-type experiment regarding average human reaction time and Unleashed's expectations but I can't remember where it is).

Here it is.

Every single challenge has an obvious and intuitive counter, introduced by Sonic Team well before that skill itself is needed.

You know, you have said this many, many times over the course of three threads. And yet, not once, even when you were called on it specifically, have you offered any proof of this. So tell you what, how about you answer this question that I posed in the other thread, which you proceeded to promptly ignore and instead change the subject:

You keep saying this. How about you prove it. Tell me the counter for the offscreen enemy I run into that I couldn't have seen coming and wasn't given any warning to avoid. Tell me the trick for avoiding the idiosyncratic path choices that can lead you straight to death pits with absolutely nothing in the way of any signal explaining such. I'd really like to know, because if I could find out I might be able to find Sonic Advance 3 somewhat playable.

Edited January 14, 2010 by Tornado

[Blacklightning]

Oh and get this, if I was feeling skeptical of an area, I'd SLOW DOWN for a second. Even releasing boost for a good second can make a world of difference.

The problem is that you're never given enough notice to even be skeptical, let alone act accordingly. It amazes me that some people just plain still don't get this yet.

Well of course, you can't have an easy game that's also unfair. That'd be a contradiction.

That's not the point I was trying to make. You can have a simple game that's also unfair. What a world of difference one word makes.

The stages in SA didn't really feel like they were trying to impede you at all, and if they did try it was pointless. I enjoyed the heightened reflexes and awareness that Unleashed required and everyone I've personally had play the game (Non-gamers,Gamers,Sonic bandwagon haters, you name it.) were thrilled by it. And yanno what? When they died, they didn't go "Oh damn this game design to hell!" They said, "Oh how do you quick step again?? L1, R1?? Ok ok lemme try this again >=D" that particular situation was a friend of mine who never played before and that I threw into Jungle Joyride telling him it was lvl 2. Just for LOLz. He finished the stage and loved it, dying and all. That's the feeling Unleashed gives off I'm trying to convey to you.

I'm curious of what your sample size was. It can't possibly have been anywhere in even the hundreds, and considering the fanbase alone numbers in the millions... yeah, you can imagine how much opinion alone weighs in, that said. Also bear in mind that while I have said I do enjoy the game, that doesn't stop me from admitting the game has fucking serious problems.

Consider me a special case if you wish.

Fair enough, but I draw the line at you comparing it to everyone else's as if it makes a difference.

That's my favorite stage in the game. It's beautiful. I replay it all the time, that "hellish level". Why don't we just agree that Eggmanland is hell, because it is. But at the same time I was thinking "Eggman isn't fucking around with this place! o.O" and stuck with it. It has it's moments, and deleivers the same kind of thrills as the other levels.

The funny thing is, Scrap Brain in Sonic 1 managed exactly this without being obsessively cheap all throughout.

The Sniper, you linked to S rank videos. Of course they're holding boost down all the way through - they are prepared for it and aiming to get a high score. You shouldn't be holding down boost all the way through if you're playing for the first time.

It was me who posted those videos, btw. For the most part those were just a visual aid to help point out the obscenely bad level design in certain areas. If you want an example of how the game mistakenly teaches you to use the boost nonstop though, you could always take nearly any level before Empire City (assume Apotos for sake of example), which allows you to boost through completely unpunished for the most part without even attempting a gradual curve of learning when it comes to cheap death pits. Of course, the issue could've been avoided altogether by doing away with fake difficulty completely, but the boost is still a big contributer to that nonetheless.

EDIT: And frankly, if you can find versions of the videos I posted that aren't S ranks, be my guess. Considering most Youtubers laugh at you for gaining anything less, it's understandable that there isn't exactly many nonserious or first-time runs out there.

All I can agree with is that the amount you are meant to use the boost is poorly communicated. The game should have made it clear with messages like "Be careful not to use the boost all the time! Going fast means you can't see what's ahead of you!"

Good to see someone's on the same page in this regard, at least.

To be fair, the only time the game TELLS you use the boost is before enemy hordes or water.

The problem isn't so much what the game directly tells you to do, but what it leads you to believe you can easily get away with in its early stages, then mercilessly punishing you for proceeding as expected. Hell, the freaking boxart has "Speed Returns" plastered onto the back of the bloody box - an example that comes up before you've even put the disc in your console.

Only level I can think of where you're forced to boost meaning hazards might be hard to see is the shoots of water on Adabat, but to be fair, that's the penultimate level, and I worked out pretty quickly that carefully tapping boost as I went across the water kept me afloat without obscuring my vision.

"Penultimate" doesn't exactly justify cheap level design. Edited January 15, 2010 by Blacklightning

[JezMM]

I need to buy a friggin' capture card. I want to post videos of every single level in the game just to show people how far you can get by just holding boost and not paying attention to anything. The early levels punish you plenty for boosting IMO. The spikes at the end of Apotos. The tree section in Mazuri. The pitfalls in the cavern on Holoska.

All that happens on the later levels is these kind of threats appear more frequently.

I still didn't feel the game was encouring me to boost constantly but meh. I kinda wish I could flashback and rewatch my first playthrough of every level to see how much I was boosting, and whether I was doing it intelligently or not. All I can work off is that I never felt frustrated, nor got a Game Over on my first run (I might have got ONE on Eggmanland but can't remember).

The way I see it, I don't think you can make a Sonic game as fast and thrilling as Unleashed without it being a bit unforgiving on difficult levels. If every hazard was pointed out with massive giant arrows from 10 minutes away, you'd avoid every single one and moan the game is too easy.

Yet somehow even when the opposite is true, you still get people moaning that it "plays itself" like above (yet then claim that it doesn't in the paragraph below lolwut?).

Edited January 15, 2010 by JezMM

[Cortez]

The thing is though, Adventure was released over 10 years ago and whilst it was only the first attempt at Sonic in 3D mostly the entire fanbase is in agreeance that it's a brilliant game.

Considering Sonic Team has had a decade to improve upon Adventure and the best they can come up with is running so fast you can barely control yourself and being a werewolf it honestly surprises me how some people can claim this game is better than Adventure.

And you claim that taking it slow makes the game easier. Have tried playing as Sonic without boosting!? It's nearly impossible to control him above walking pace because he has so little traction, if you pull back on the control stick to stop yourself falling off the edge of a stage you'll likely fall off anyway since it takes so long to stop yourself. Yes there's the stomp but I shouldn't have to jump then execute a move just to stop myself, besides it's not even part of the basic moveset; it's a powerup.

[Blacklightning]

I need to buy a friggin' capture card. I want to post videos of every single level in the game just to show people how far you can get by just holding boost and not paying attention to anything. The early levels punish you plenty for boosting IMO. The spikes at the end of Apotos. The tree section in Mazuri. The pitfalls in the cavern on Holoska.

Wouldn't using an experienced player to demonstrate these things (which I have no doubt you are) kind of negate the point of an experiment like that? A player that knows the level already knows of the hazards in advance most of the time, whereas the prime argument thus far has been that first time players don't have a chance of seeing these things coming. Perhaps finding someone who hasn't played the game before would offer a little integrity?

The way I see it, I don't think you can make a Sonic game as fast and thrilling as Unleashed without it being a bit unforgiving on difficult levels. If every hazard was pointed out with massive giant arrows from 10 minutes away, you'd avoid every single one and moan the game is too easy.

Not necessarily. Take a look at Mirror's Edge. They highlighted key elements of the stage in bright, unmissable red, eliminating the need for blind leaps of faith and subtly guiding the player down the right path without completely eliminating their options for alternate paths - and players that felt it unnecessary could simply turn it off if they felt it to be invasive. And hell, in other games where speed and imminent death meet, they usually mark off deadly areas in advance with danger signs - not nearly the "10 minutes away" you mentioned, but still within a reasonable margin to react to it without completely nullifing the possibility of falling in. It's simply common sense for the most part - the hazard itself isn't always enough warning to avoid it, and Unleashed has a tendency to fail to realize that spectacularly (not just in the factor of sheer speed, but also in overdone motion blur and other immenent hazards), with the exception of the button prompts that disappeared after Spagonia day.

Yet somehow even when the opposite is true, you still get people moaning that it "plays itself" like above (yet then claim that it doesn't in the paragraph below lolwut?).

It's not too farfetched to say both are true in their own right. Unleashed does have sections that remove control from you entirely (springs, boost pads and loops most primarily), and some of the design can sometimes be so linear that you can literally just hold X to bypass it. They don't necessarily happen at the same time, but both of these things still happen in their own areas to their own extents. Edited January 15, 2010 by Blacklightning