If you could improve SatAM

[Blazey Firekitty]

Maybe I'm approaching this the wrong way.

So instead of trying to convince you that Sonic and Tails' relationship isn't a plothole, I'd like to know how you, personally, would fix it. That isn't sarcasm...I'm geninuinely interested in hearing it, because you don't sound like you think the relationship is ireedemable, at least.

[Miko]

I know for a fact you won't want to know that answer.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I know for a fact you won't want to know that answer.

Well, actually you'd be wrong.

I know it would probably involve getting rid of Sally, but I'm more interested in how we can fix Tails now, anyway. So, despite my great nostalgic love of Sal, if you have a vision on how Tails would improve if old vest n' boots weren't there, go right ahead and present it.

[Miko]

I'll see about typing it up then.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'll see about typing it up then.

Cool.^^

[Picchi]

Oh Miko I understand not everyone likes intellectuals like Sally, or radicals like Bunnie but... a dumbass like Dulcy is this really going to bring in more girls? I wouldn't think so.

Dulcy is what the creative team came up with. My guess was that she was forged from young girl's appeal to shows like My Little Pony, Care Bears and the like. Not that I particularly agree with it, she wasn't necessary, and even if they were able to market her to the younger girls, the demographic for those who would generally appreciate Dulcy is by default, limited.

Anyway, I think an example of what Miko was talking about is for instance, girls not having to have the traits of more radical feminist models like Sally in order to be intelligent. Part of the problem with many 90's females was that they tried creating a standard for women that many of them couldn't connect with very well.

As for Archie Sonic, The story wants convey him as someone appreciative of everyone at the very least on a basic, humanitarian level. While this nature of his allows him to gain many supporters and associates, Sonic doesn't necessarily have a particular NEED for any of these characters' personalities as much as he does their abilities. So while its not in Sonic's character to address them as an object, their abilities are all he can "need" for them in his life. He may call them his "friends", but their personalities are not very necessary in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, it may seem understandable to people that Sonic is closer to Tails than most of the other characters, and its true. He is, but that's a given since hardly any of them take the initiative interact with him outside of things related to business anyway. Tails may talk and do more with Sonic than a lot of the others, but again, his personality isn't very neccessary to Sonic and compared to Princess Sally, it most certainly isn't valued as much.

Sonic even admits it in #57.

The title of Sonic's "best bud" may refer to at best Tails being Sonic's closest male-related pal, but in Archie comics its clear he sees Sally as his best friend overall. The comic then goes further to support the notion by having Sonic frequently thinking about and initiating more concern for Sally and her feelings compared to Tails. During #90s when Tails went missing, Sonic only mentioned him once, whereas throughout the entire time of Sally's absence from the team he was thinking of her and trying to find ways to go see her. Nevermind the fact that he knows Sally's safe and secure in a palace, Tails is out missing with god-knows-what happening to him and he hardly even crosses Sonic's mind.

Or how about post #134? Sally slaps Sonic and breaks up with him and he can't stop thinking about her, but when Tails is upset over the fact he's dating Fiona, Sonic knowing, mind you, that he had feelings for her went after her anyway, hardly displaying any concern or regret for the pain he might have put Tails through over doing that. The issue simply comes, there's a confrontation and then it goes, not being brought up again until Tails kirks out on him in later issues.

Sonic's value for Sally over Tails in turn creates a series of problems because Tails is not only pegged down from his franchise-reknown role as the "best friend" the other characters have to suffer because in order to make Sonic seem somewhat closer to him compared to the others (despite not really needing his personality) everyone's ability to interact and have a bond with Sonic save Sally has to be hindered. Otherwise what little Tails does gets overshadowed. His place amongst Sonic's friends wouldn't look as signiffigant.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'll admit that Tails has gotten some of the same raw deal he did in SatAM, but I wouldn't say it's quite as severe, especially given that Sonic recently admitted that he'd been treating Tails like dirt, and presumably has been taking measures to see it doesn't happen again.

[SuperStingray]

I'll admit that Tails has gotten some of the same raw deal he did in SatAM, but I wouldn't say it's quite as severe, especially given that Sonic recently admitted that he'd been treating Tails like dirt, and presumably has been taking measures to see it doesn't happen again.

Well, there was that episode where Tails beat the crap out of Sonic.

[Picchi]

I'll admit that Tails has gotten some of the same raw deal he did in SatAM, but I wouldn't say it's quite as severe, especially given that Sonic recently admitted that he'd been treating Tails like dirt, and presumably has been taking measures to see it doesn't happen again.

Sonic at best has only reffered to the Fiona issue when it comes to treating Tails badly, and that only happened because Tails put him in a situation in which he HAD to face and admit it. Sonic nor Tails reffered to anything prior to that incident, and Sonic's made no indication that he's acknowledged or change the issue.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Picchi

[Miko]

Oh heeeell no.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Sonic at best has only reffered to the Fiona issue when it comes to treating Tails badly, and that only happened because Tails put him in a situation in which he HAD to face and admit it. Sonic nore Tails reffered to anything prior to that incident, and Sonic's made no indication that he's acknowledged or change the issue.

Well...I'm not sure I understand why you're saying.;; Are you saying that Sonic apologized to Tails for purely selfish reasons?

Edited March 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Picchi]

Oh heeeell no.

One of the reasons Sal's revered as a Mary-sue. XD

[Blazey Firekitty]

Yeesh, Sonic's face looks weird in that panel, reminds me too much of Charmy.

[Picchi]

Well...I'm sure I understand why you're saying.;; Are you saying that Sonic apologized to Tails for purely selfish reasons?

I'm saying that while Sonic apologized, even if he was genuinely sorry, what worries me is just how much the it took for that apology to come out of him compared to what happens when he has problems with Sally. Not only that, but just because he apologizes in this particular instance doesn't mean he's going to all of a sudden drop his relationship with Sally and make Tails closer to him. Fiona was one issue. This is another.

[Miko]

That panel makes me mad everytime I see it.

Are you saying that Sonic apologized to Tails for purely selfish reasons?

I think Sonic would be bothered if an acquainance cried, or screamed and fought him for a reason that was justified, and based on his wrongdoings. Many people would, I think. But it doesn't really communicate that there was a bond. Just that, he doesn't want to feel guilty.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Miko

[Blazey Firekitty]

I'm saying that while Sonic apologized, even if he was genuinely sorry, what worries me is just how much the it took for that apology to come out of him compared to what happens when he has problems with Sally. Not only that, but just because he apologizes in this particular instance doesn't mean he's going to all of a sudden drop his relationship with Sally and make Tails closer to him. Fiona was one issue. This is another.

Okay, it makes more sense now.

I can understand why it would be a problem if it took a fight to get Sonic to open up to Tails, vs. a simple conversation to open up to Sal.

I think Sonic would be bothered if an acquainance cried, or screamed and fought him for a reason that was justified, and based on his wrongdoings. Many people would, I think. But it doesn't really communicate that there was a bond. Just that, he doesn't want

Your thought was accidentally cut off.;; Edit: Oh, okay, I see it now. While don't personally agree that guilt would be Sonic's only motivation, I can see how it would come across that way.

Edited March 24, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Picchi]

I can understand why it would be a problem if it took a fight to get Sonic to open up to Tails, vs. a simple conversation to open up to Sal.

Its not simply a matter of conversation. Sonic generally tends to take more initiative with getting to the root of him Sally's problems compared to when anything happens to Tails.

[Blazey Firekitty]

Its not simply a matter of conversation. Sonic generally tends to take more initiative with getting to the root of him Sally's problems compared to when anything happens to Tails.

Ah, more an issue of general neglect.

[Flyboy Fox]

Sally and Sonic don't have a better relationship than Tails and Sonic... they just have a different one. Sonic spends more time actively thinking about Sally, most likely, because he has a romantic interest in her and he's trying to attain her, at least subconsciously. He doesn't need to obsess about Tails in the same way because Tails is already in the right place - Sonic's best friend.

Admittedly, that can make him take Tails for granted sometimes, because I think Sonic sometimes selfishly assumes that whatever he does, Tails will take it because they're friends.

I think some of you are looking too hard for reasons for Sonic and Tails to care about each other and be friends. They just do and are. You don't have to spend all your time with someone or be able to quantify every little aspect they can provide to a relationship in order to be friends. Sure, I would LOVE to see Sonic and Tails spend a lot more time in each other's company in SatAM, but the fact that they don't doesn't make their friendship seem like a plothole to me.

(I should add that, in Archie, Sonic was around when Tails was BORN. He's known him his entire life, and the fact that they revealed that info leads me to believe it's significant as to why they are so close. Also, the two issue arc "Heart of the Hedgehog" is also a very sweet glimpse into their relationship).

[Miko]

Sally and Sonic don't have a better relationship than Tails and Sonic... they just have a different one. Sonic spends more time actively thinking about Sally, most likely, because he has a romantic interest in her and he's trying to attain her, at least subconsciously. He doesn't need to obsess about Tails in the same way because Tails is already in the right place - Sonic's best friend.

This is why I like the example provided. Tails was taken by Athiar, not that Sonic knew that. For all Sonic knew Tails could have been abducted or killed and had been missing for a good while. Tails was just as unattainable a friend in that instance as Sally was his lover. Terrible things could have (and were happening to Tails). But all Sonic can do is worry about Sally who at the very least, he knows isn't dead or being tortured.

I think some of you are looking too hard for reasons for Sonic and Tails to care about each other and be friends. They just do and are.

"Just is" really isn't good enough for me. If there's no basis for the relationship there's really no reason for Sonic and Tails to have a relationship beyond coworkers/acquaintances. The relationship feels cold and hollow despite the story's superficial attempts to indicate otherwise. I'd like to see that change. I'd like to see Sonic and Tails' relationship and sense some warmth from it.

You don't have to spend all your time with someone or be able to quantify every little aspect they can provide to a relationship in order to be friends.

I don't think anyone was saying you did.

Sure, I would LOVE to see Sonic and Tails spend a lot more time in each other's company in SatAM, but the fact that they don't doesn't make their friendship seem like a plothole to me.

It's not simply about Sonic and Tails not speding a lot of company with one another. However, if you rarely have any involvement to the life of the other character, the implication is usually that they don't serve a function to their regular life. Putting that aside, spotlight alone will not mean a genuine bond. That Sonic has a high value for Tais as a person.

(I should add that, in Archie, Sonic was around when Tails was BORN. He's known him his entire life, and the fact that they revealed that info leads me to believe it's significant as to why they are so close.

Knowing a person for a long time doesn't automatically mean a close friendship. I know that again there are many people that I've disliked that I've known for a long time.

[Flyboy Fox]

Knowing a person for a long time doesn't automatically mean a close friendship. I know that again there are many people that I've disliked that I've known for a long time.

Which is why I stated that I believe there was a reason it was shown. If it wasn't important, then why even mention it? The implication is that they grew close over a lifetime together, even if that isn't always the case.

[Miko]

Which is why I stated that I believe there was a reason it was shown. If it wasn't important, then why even mention it? The implication is that they grew close over a lifetime together, even if that isn't always the case.

If this implication were true, we should be able to still see why they value one another. Maybe the story wants to communicate this, but again it lacks the substance to support it. Friends can drift apart too y'know. So what kept them valuing one another's personalities so much?

[Little Miss Fortunes]

Òkay, I'm going to try and clear this up, because I think there may be a misunderstanding in concept here, and I'm not quite sure of what is being said, myself.

Miko, are you saying that in order for a true bond to be established between two characters, the characters must counter one of each other's flaws? Sally counters everything for Sonic, and thus no other character can balance out anything that Sally isn't already handling, as she balances Sonic's impulse, which is the root of all of his flaws?

So, in terms of SatAM, an ideal relationship between Sonic and the rest of the group would be something like (keep in mind that I don't really know what most if not all of the SatAM characters are like; please bear with me):

First and foremost, Sonic and Tails. From my understanding, Tails is simply an enthusiastic little kid... So, as Tails isn't fully involved with the serious business as the rest of the Freedom Fighters are, perhaps he could bring Sonic away from the mundane tasks of restoring Knothole/Mobius/Mobotropolis, and keep him remembering what was and what can be once more - a motivation to keep fighting, so to speak. He can bring a light-hearted, homely aspect into Sonic's life - something that cannot be brought to him by the rest of the gang, as they are all around his age and are troubled by, and trying to deal with the whole issue of Robotnik's domination and such. Tails wants to be involved, granted, but he still retains a childish naivety and innocence that can provoke a sense of nostalgia to Sonic to motivate him to return the world to what it once was even more - something the others couldn't do.

In return, Sonic... Well, he's Tails' idol and hero. He can keep Tails' innocence as bright as it is, because he can bring hope and reassurance to the child that everything will be okay. And Tails believes in him. He believes in him with every fibre of his being. This makes Tails want to be someone like Sonic, someone who can be relied on and believed in, sometime in the future. As such, Sonic counterbalances Tails' childishness by indirectly making him strive to be a stronger person.

Now, the problem with Sally is that she counters Sonic's impulse... What if she were downplayed so she perhaps... Perhaps solely countered his ego instead? She's a responsible and level-headed character, from what I can tell - she could challenge Sonic's delusions and stop him from being reckless with the belief that he can do anything and everything; bring a sense of reality to give his giagantic ego that deflation it sometimes needs for him to be able to do things to the best of his ability. I know that dealing with his ego would grant her to be dealing with other flaws, such as being reckless and not thinking things through, but this can be shared by another level-headed character, like, maybe Rotor. She may stop him from doing something stupid that he'll end up regretting, but she does not, and can not, cater for every aspect of his life and personality.

Of course, Sonic could counter Sally's perfectionism. Not that she's perfect (or, well, she'd better not be. Ew), but of her supposedly being an uptight perfectionist. He can get her to "lighten up" with his zany antics, and remind her that over-thinking and analysing a situation can be just as detrimental as not thinking it through enough.

As I already mentioned him, Rotor... I don't know him very well, other than he is a mechanic... As previously stated, perhaps he can help with Sonic's being headstrong by being rational and calm. He probably wouldn't directly challenge Sonic's views and ideas or call him an idiot and whatever else Sally does, but he could still balance his reckless behaviour. Where Sonic might rebel against what Sally says for being so naggy, Rotor might get him to actually stop and think about things. He wouldn't deflate Sonic's ego in times when that's needed, like Sally, but he'd be the one to actually make Sonic think about what he's doing before charging in. He'd encourage Sonic's more thoughtful and intelligent side to come out, rather than him seeiming quite unintelligent due to blind impulse.

And Sonic can help bring Rotor out of his shell, and perhaps counter his lack of self esteem (I'm not sure if Rotor is shy and unconfident, but that's the mild impression I've got of him). Sonic can make Rotor's ideas shine where the walrus, himself, had doubts about it.

Bunnie, as far as I know, is like Sally's confidant, right? Why can't she also be Sonic's? She could be the one to deal with Sonic's emotional state, for the most part. Tails is too young to understand everything, and Sally's too serious and focussed on their objectives to have time for this, so Bunnie is the ideal gal for Sonic to confide in when he's down or needs emotional advice. Perhaps, if they really want the SonSal relationship, Sonic could go to Bunnie for advice on that, seeing that she is Sally's best friend, and she'd know the chipmunk/squirrel best. In being the confidant of both characters, she can help them to understand each other and see from each other's point of view... Like a peacemaker between them when need be.

And Sonic can keep Bunnie's hopes up and keep her chipper and light-hearted as she always is - I can imagine her to be bogged down and depressed at times, and, through being playful and humourous, the ol' Sugah-Hawg can keep her smilin'.

Antione... Well... He's like Sonic's comic foil, isn't he? Perhaps he would not serve to balance Sonic's flaws (or, if he does, it'd be indirectly and/or unintentionally), but to escalate them. For instance, when Sally might deflate Sonic's ego, he could go and tease Antione, thus proving his mischievous superiority and re-inflating that ego of his. Of course, Antione wouldn't solely be used as a verbal punching bag - perhaps his cowardice will keep Sonic strong by reminding him of who he doesn't want to be like XD;, or even make the hedgehog review the possible dangers of a situation.

And, of course, Sonic will counter this cowardice with blind bravery and headstrong attitudes, dragging a reluctant Antione along for the ride, but ultimately making Antione face, and thus perhaps eventually conquer his fears.

I really don't know Dulcy or Lupe at all, so I won't comment on them.

Is this correct, though? Or have I got the wrong idea? ...if... Anyone actually managed to read through that essay XD

[Eileanach]

TL;DR. Seriously though this topic exploded with activity over night. I need to agree with FlyboyFox with regards to her longer post on the whole Sonic and Sally thing. Now a lot of people take advantage of their best friends when they are in love so it's safe to assume Sonic is interested in Sally and thus takes Tails for granted. Now it's not a big massive deal in SatAM because it's a children's cartoon. I am not taking into consideration the comics because that brings the story elsewhere. In SatAM, Sonic tried to impress Sally and often competed with Antoine, even though Sally showed no interest you could see she was kind of keen on Sonic and if someone I was interested in suddenly began to show some interest my best friend would be kicked to the curb for a bit so I could establish grounds with the man/girl/squirrel of my dreams...

I can roughly see in a very vague sense what Miko is trying to get at but I certainly don't view it as a plothole. Basically I guess because SatAM is based off of a computer game we are to take the computer game as a mere little prologue so the fact that in Sonic 2, Sonic found Tails and they adventured together and became Best Friends Forever through their teamwork and cooperation in bringing down Robotnik perhaps that is how we are meant to assume why they are best friends in SatAM? It's not a plot hole it just actually requires you to remember that they took this from a game and some of the games story needs to be there whilst everything else is thrown about to their liking.

[Indigo Rush]

Here's that image I promised. It's not full detail, but the basic body structure is the same. I guess I'll post this in SSN eventually.