If you could improve SatAM

[Dr. Mechano]

I would have made an episode where SatAM Robotnik and AoStH Robotnik work together to defeat Sonic.

That sounds better than the entire series. I want to see this now.

[Mega]

Good writing can solve anything. It's not impossible for all of the characters to work as good foils if done correctly.

But eh, I like SatAM the way it is, anyway, so I'm personally not too picky about it.

[Miko]

Question: What ever happened to the chaos emeralds? I think Sonic gaining them with the help of his friends (ocassionally, not every episode) and learning to use them may have been a bit better then the whole power stone thing that was kind of "meh" in comparison. with all the filler in SatAM I think they could've dedicated a few episodes to the issue.

Oh and no Sally plz. nonono. Come to think of it, the only SatAM original character who might really work in this day in age as a regular is Bunnie. Ant was only really there to be a slap to the French and provide even more emphasis to Sonic/Sally (ugh), Rotor was a mechanic ...but we have Tails and by Sonic 2 it's pretty clear he uses planes so is there really any need for Dulcy? Actually she was put in because Sally and Bunnie weren't popular enough. Although I really wonder how Bunnie would've done if Sally weren't there as the signature foil for Sonic. I wonder how a cast of characters would've done in a similar setting without Sally.

Good writing can solve anything. It's not impossible for all of the characters to work as good foils if done correctly.

Anyone can say good writing can solve anything but in practice good writing may ammount to simply getting rid of Sally so the others can have a greater place in Sonic's life. If they all became foils, they'd all be immediately devalued because Sally is already a foil for Sonic's personality, not a personality trait in a specific context. Oh sure, she balances "reckless" but name me one flaw that doesn't require some degree of recklessness? You need recklessness for a characteristic to manifest at a time most incovenient.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

I understand why Sally gets a lot of hate - she did dominate the show. But still, I don't feel that SatAM would be SatAM without her.

[Miko]

Technically any modification would make it different from the original. The real question is, would it make it better or worse and why?

[Flyboy Fox]

Well, there's modification and there's a completely different show. I think removing Sally from SatAM would be like removing Sonic from AoStH.

[Miko]

The fact that Sally--not Tails but Sally is that embedded in the story is actually a problem. Of course AoStH wouldn't be AoStH without Sonic because he's the main character. Sally is not the main character of SatAM, Sonic is. Or at least she's not supposed to be. The the title of the show is Sonic the hedgehog not "Sally Acorn, and everyone else." Sally's position to the story would have to be hacked away at to a large degree even if she were kept so that the other characters (especially Tails) seem less like dead weight. She was so rooted into the story because everyone else didn't really have a place. If I had to choose by seeing more Sally or seeing everyone else get their fair share, I'm going with the latter. I just don't really see a place for her in it.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Miko

[Flyboy Fox]

I agree that Sally stole Tails' role and that her role should have been reduced and allowed for the rest of the cast to shine. I also agree that a show could work very well without her at all. I just think that would require an entirely new show to be scripted, rather than merely 'improving' on SatAM. Because she really was the backbone to SatAM, title character or not ^^;

[Picchi]

I think Sonic Chronicles and Fleetway are good examples of universes having/introducing a SatAM atomosphere without there needing Sally to function.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Picchi

[Miko]

The show would have to be rescripted anyway if everyone else was to get their share. Again she's only considered the backbone because she essentially hogs everything. If you removed her, nothing about the general conflict between Sonic and Robotnik in the show would have to change.

[Sean]

I saw Sally as the leader of the group, but as far as actually dominating the show... I don't really get that impression from her much. It's not like Sonic X in which Sonic got substantially less development than other characters (every character in the show got some relative degree of character development except for Sonic himself), only showing up to save the day - I could have sworn several episodes of SatAM were even told from his point of view, such as concerning his relationship with Uncle Chuck (one of my favorite characters in the series). Unlike with Sonic X, I don't recall ever feeling like this isn't a Sonic cartoon that I'm watching. Sure, the entire world didn't revolve around him in the show, but Sonic plays a substantial part by being a part of a whole.

There's really this sense of unity I find in SatAM among the characters that I haven't exactly found in any other Sonic media. That's why I really adore all of the Freedom Fighters equally, and not just watch the show merely to see Sonic in action. I think Sally is a great character in the show, much moreso than her portrayal in the Archie series.

Then again, SatAM is my favorite Sonic animation, and it seems anybody who likes it as such is looked upon as a crazed fanboy, so cocks.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Jake

[Miko]

There was very little character development in SatAM, if Sonic learned to use his brain, he forgot so that Sally could mockingly banter about his lack of intelligence or groan about how guys go off without thinking in nostalgic, misandist 1990s militant feminist fashion. When saying Sally dominated the show, I guess it'd be important to ask oneself in what way. She dominated the show in the sense the others didn't really have a place to put their personality to use in Sonic's life. So Sally was essentially the backbone or heart of the show because she pretty much dominated that aspect of it.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Miko

[Picchi]

I think that instead of the characters (with the exception of Rotor and Dulcy who were just..there) being designed to foil Sonic, it seemed like they revolved moreso around what they could offer for Sally so I guess I could see why some people would have a hard time picturing SatAM--at least the way it was without her. Most of the characters it seems, revolved around what they could do for Sally, like with Bunnie being Sally's best friend and confidant, and Sonic being her love interest or in Tails and Antione's case what extra things they could have her do like being a surrogate family member, or adding in a not-so-romantic rival to reaffirm Sonic's affections. I find the last bit interesting since Sally had a slew of other love interests while Sonic didn't have any alternatives else outside from being hung up on her.

Thats one of the general problems I have with the SatAM cast; that they didn't really seem as though they were Sonic's supporting characters as much as they were designed (even if unintentionally) to be Sally's. I'm sorry if I come across as harsh when I say this but if SatAM comes back, then there'd need to be a revamp of the main cast because people (myself included) expect the show to revolve around Sonic first and foremost, not Sally. That doesn't inherantly mean that some of them couldn't be tweaked to fit, but if characters are going to be in the show, complimenting Sonic's character needs to be on the higher priority. Especially if they intend to be central cast.

Edited March 18, 2009 by Picchi

[Blazey Firekitty]

I have the perfect way to improve SatAM.

Hire Peter Cullen to voice Sally. Then have her tell the Freedom Fighters to "Roll Out!" in every episode. Oh, and make every Freedom Fighter yellow. Kids love Peter Cullen and yellow good guys!

[Ryan Brown]

I honestly could care less about SatAM. The comics are enough for me in that regard.

[DaBatGuy]

I find it kinda funny how so many are suggesting removing Sally from the plot when it's actually Sonic himself who has very little influence on the story. SATAM incorporates the elements of the games so loosely that it still would have worked well without any connection to Sonic:

Cut Sonic and Tails and make Sally the hero.

Call it "Freedom Fighters" instead.

Replace Sonic's high speed deus ex machina with gadgets and karate.

Change Robotnik's design a bit and call him something else(Dr. Claw perhaps?)

Replace the power rings with non-infringing power orbs or something.

Make uncle Chuck Sally's relate and make him a squirrel or something.

It almost seems like the creators had these basic ideas in mind for an environmentally conscious cartoon and then shoe horned Sonic in once they realized it be much more successful if starred the world's most popular mascot, at the time. It's not that I hate SaTAM, I quite like it actually, but it's no mystery that no matter how well produced it was without Sonic's presence it would have been quickly forgotten and remembered only as "Captain Planet for furries".

[Blazey Firekitty]

I honestly don't see how it would be absolutely neccessary for Sally to be removed from the show for the other characters to get more screentime. She could simply be written in a less dominant fashion. The character is not such an all powerful cosmic force that competent writers couldn't fix her.

Even if one subscribes to the belief that she was an overblown femininist stereotype, it's not as if that aspect couldn't be downplayed or changed as well.

It's fiction, after all, not science. Little if anything is set in stone.

[Flyboy Fox]

I loved the fact that she was an emotionally strong and dominant female character, independant and self-assured, but also a stable and grounded compliment to Sonic's haphazard and impulsive personality.

I like to think of her as being the tactical leader, while Sonic was the leader of the front line. I wouldn't want Sally's character to be tuned down too much... I'd just like to see her screen time distributed more evenly among the other co-characters.

Also, snarky Nicole for the win.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I loved the fact that she was an emotionally strong and dominant female character, independant and self-assured, but also a stable and grounded compliment to Sonic's haphazard and impulsive personality.

I like to think of her as being the tactical leader, while Sonic was the leader of the front line. I wouldn't want Sally's character to be tuned down too much... I'd just like to see her screen time distributed more evenly among the other co-characters.

I know there's a lot we don't agree on, but I love it when we do see eye to eye. Like right now.

Edit: Yush. Hooray for the AI girl and her attitude.

Edited March 19, 2009 by BlazeyBakeneko

[Vertekins]

- Take out Sonic's dumbassery and his position as being primarily a good Swatbot distractor. I counted a ton of times where it seemed that Sonic was delegated as a means to divert attention from the rest of the teams antics. Now I understand how he could be used effectively in such a way given how fast he is but it would've been more interesting to see him have more active involvement in Robotropolis missions. Or maybe not given how unbelievably stupid he could be. Talking of stupidity, I always felt that that trait was used purely as a way of making him more likeable when fact is, Sonic already pretty much had the charisma before he was claimed by the idiot hero trend of late 80's/early 90's male characters in western animation.

- Give Robotnik a motive to have taken over Mobotropolis. I believe Ben Hurst once stated that Robotnik's main motive in taking over Mobius and roboticising it's populace was to put Mobians "In their places" as he believed that they were of a lower class than humans but no indication is ever made in the series about this and it can only be assumed that Robotnik has a power mad lust for control as his primary motive to take over.

- Give more details about the Great War. It's never mentioned just what the war was about. Or what it entailed. Were the prospective Freedom Fighter's families torn apart by it? Were sonic's parents involved in it, resulting in Charles then having to look after him from a very early age?

- Give Sonic 3 rows of spines on the back of his head. The punk spikes just don't do it for me.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Verte

[Picchi]

I honestly don't see how it would be absolutely neccessary for Sally to be removed from the show for the other characters to get more screentime.

Again, this isn't simply about screentime, its about Sonic being able to develop a beleivable bond with the rest of his cast. How is he supposed to develop his relationships with the other characters, or even have so much as a dynamic with the them if Sally's designed to be the catch-all foil in the relationship? This kind of writing wouldn't be as bad in a romance novel or in a medium that only had two main characters, But in a series that's expected to have multiple members in the supporting cast, its detrimental in the sense that everyone gets cheapened because she's compensating for everything thus dilluting any need Sonic may have for them. You could give these characters all the screentime you wanted, but it still wouldn't change the fact that they become deadweight and filler with hardly any relevance to Sonic as there's nothing that they could specifically offer to his character that he wouldn't be able to get from Sally.

I think that if the series honestly needed a strong female character who was independant and self-assured, there's always girls like Rouge the Bat or Tiara Boobowski who could fill in that void; characters who'd be far less intrusive on the story and everyone else than Sally would be. Its not that a girl with a lot of pressence is a bad thing, but when it comes to a point where she overshadows what other characters could offer, then its a problem.

Even if one subscribes to the belief that she was an overblown femininist stereotype, it's not as if that aspect couldn't be downplayed or changed as well.

I'll quote the Anti-Sally-Sue-Club on DA as I think it puts it best:

"If Sally was modified so that the other characters could offer balance to Sonic's personality--his flaws, then the element that defined her relationship to Sonic and made it uniqe is no longer there. The mythos for the relationship is gone, and it's purpose and value will be come obsolete, and Sally would become an unneccessary addition to the book."

A good example of this is what happened in Archie #134+ after Sally slapped Sonic and love drama ran rampant. When fans so much as suspected that she was diverging from the feminist archetypes she'd been associated with, her supporters were not only upset, they publically complained to Archie about her "OOC change in characterization", and then some of them went as far as to claim that they wouldn't be fans of her. Fact is, like it or not these archetypes are what people associate with who 'Sally' is, what her fans tend to like about her and the Sonic/Sally relationship. To try and "modify" that would only be changing her from what they liked about her, understandably upsetting them. So what's the point in adding her? Especially when there's a number of girls who could probably work as they are?

Edited March 20, 2009 by Picchi

[Blazey Firekitty]

To Picchi:

Firstly, while I usually don't like to apologize, I'm sorry for being so blunt in my previous post. You look like a very articulate and interesting conversationalist, and I don't think I'd have anything to gain from trying to provoke you.

I can see where you're coming from when you say that changing Sally's character would upset her fans, but...I'd say I'm a different kind of Sally fan. I don't neccesarily have to have her as a field commander or even as a princess for me to like her. For me, changing her so she doesn't overshadow the other characters would be better than simply never seeing her again. I can see why others would feel different, but I don't share that view. I guess I could be in the minority as far as fans of Sal, though.

I really do mean it too when I say I don't have to have Sal in super feminist mode all the time, too. The "vampire fangs slap" from 134 was pretty jarring...but in retrospect the whole "Dear Aly" thing made it more bearable. I enjoy Sally as a fighter, but Sally as a sort of nuturing monarch to her people/kindly anoymous romantic advior is a perfectly acceptable interpretation of her for me.

Despite my disagreeing with you on whether or not Sally is irrdeemable, I do share quite a bit of your frustration on the way the comic is gone. I hate what happened to Fiona, and I'll admit that her transformation into a crazed foaming at the mouth villain was connected to the Sonsal paring. I don't like Mina more or less dissapearing, Scourge turning from charasmatic to an insufferable maniac, or the way the book turned into a professional wresting spectacle.

I think we both see the same basic problem, but just have different ideas on how to fix it.

I'm certainly open to hearing on why you like other girl characters- or even other male characters- better than Sally, though. I'm kinda in the process of reshaping my sense of Sonic fandom, and I think you input would be potentially intruiging.

[Flyboy Fox]

I can't see a character like Rouge being in any way similar to Sally in terms of role. Then again, I really haven't cared for any of the female characters in the games (with Blaze being the only one I can tolerate). I love Sally for being a tomboy princess who gave up her royal life to lead a ragtag band of freedom fighters.

Archie did horrible things to her, including morphing her looks and personality beyond recognition during certain arcs. She's been at least partially redeemed lately, however.

Still, much as I do like Archie, I like SatAM's characterisation of her best.

I also don't see SonSal as being a requisite for Sally to remain. Why can't Sonic have a good female friend who he's flirty with without it having to be anything serious? To be honest, when the Archie comics hinted for a short while about Sally and Knuckles (despite Knux not being in SatAM), I thought that made a lot more sense and that they would have been far more compatible. But that's beside the point really.

I really do think that Sally could remain 'Sally' even with more evenly distributed screen time. I'd love to see Tails as Sonic's front line partner, helping out with the field missions maybe more so than Sally, and have Sally be the tactician and leader of a second group if rendevous is required.

I'm of the opinion that SatAM Sonic needs someone like Sally to keep him in check. I find it endearing, actually.

Oddly, I'm probably one of a very small minority who doesn't care for Sonic and Sally in a romantic relationship, yet still adores Sally as a character and values her dynamic with the blue blur.

[Sega DogTagz]

I'm of the opinion that SatAM Sonic needs someone like Sally to keep him in check. I find it endearing, actually.

Oddly, I'm probably one of a very small minority who doesn't care for Sonic and Sally in a romantic relationship, yet still adores Sally as a character and values her dynamic with the blue blur.

I’m here. But if my math is correct, the 2 of us are still a minority. Bummer.

I agree that the series need Sally, mainly because Satam Sonic is incredibly needy. Sally’s existence is the only thing that gives him the attention he craves, so I couldn’t shoe horn her out. Besides, few other characters have the leadership to pull rag-tag solders and an ego-maniac together to form a successful resistance.

I couldn’t bring myself to change much about Satam. Not because its perfect, but because changing it would mean that it is no longer Satam and I cant bring myself to doing it. Most of the necessary changes have already been made in the Archie universe anyway.

If I had to name one thing though, I’d take away a few of the running gags. Dulcy’s crash landings were cute the first couple times, but I think that its spamming really turned a lot of people off about her character, which is a shame.

[Super Yoshi]

I would have more screen time for Tails because he is only in a few scens in the series. Also I would have Robotnik have some fight with Sonic.