What Are Some of the Hardest Games You've Ever Played?

[The DOMinator]

As per the title, tell me what have been some of the hardest games you've ever played. What in particular made the game(s) so hard? Did you ever beat the game(s)? What did you do to overcome the challenge? Bonus points if you provide a solution to someone as to how to beat said game(s) and/or challenge(s). For me, these include the likes of (get ready for some rambling):

• Twisted Metal Black (PlayStation 2 - Played on PlayStation 4 as an Emulated PS2 Classic)
  • The fifth entry in the Twisted Metal series, and the one most cited as the best. When I first played the game, it took me several days to finally get pass the first level. What's more was that I was playing as Sweet Tooth for my initial play through, who has one of the most powerful special weapons in the game. It only got harder from there, with each level taking me several tries over several hours over several days. I've done several play throughs since, both in order to unlock characters and arenas (almost every other level you're given two options as to where you would like to go next, making it impossible to unlock most things in a single play through), and to that extent, get 100% completion on both the game itself, and the trophies that come with the rerelease. One of the trophies involves unlocking a character named Minion, whose requirements involve beating the game as every other character. As a result of all of this, I've gotten better, and have learned a few tricks to help me along the way. The one is a bit cheap, but it is much needed when near death. It involves hiding in a secret area where the AI opponents will almost never enter to recharge the special weapon. However, sometimes they'll just camp near the entrance of said location, trying to fire up on you from within. The other tactic, which isn't so much a tactic as it is a way to play the game in general (and which has become my main way to play), is to always keep driving, shooting at whatever opponents you pass by, rather than unloading on just one of them until near the end of the match. Even with all that said, you're still fighting an uphill battle against the brutal AI opponents. There have been numerous times where I killed off most of them, but then lost my final life (out of 3 in total per level) to the last few of them. You can refill your health, through either re-charge stations (don't know what they're actually called, if they even have an official name), health pickups spread throughout the map, or by collecting one off of a helicopter. However, they're all limited in some way. The recharge stations can only be used two times. The health pickups only give you a small amount of health, they're not abundant, and sometimes there's none at all. The helicopters' appearances are sporadic, and the items that they hold keep rotating through all of the other items available every few seconds. This can lead to you either collecting their pickup before or after it turns into a health one, or just as it swaps to a health pickup, they fly away back into the sky. With all that said though, I have managed to beat the game with three out of the fourteen characters (not counting Minion) so far, and it's definitely gotten a bit easier to beat the game, but it's still very much challenging. Nonetheless, I think I have to agree with the majority that this is the best Twisted Metal game, at least out of the ones I played, which isn't really saying much when those include 3 and 4, which are often considered the worst in the series.
• My Hero (Sega Master System)
  • A port of the arcade game of the same name (to which I can't compare difficulty wise, since I never played that version), it's mostly a side scrolling beat 'em up with some platforming elements. The thing about this game is, not only do the enemies constantly spawn, and en masse, but it only takes you one hit to die. Aside from being overloaded with enemies on both sides of you, you're also almost constantly being pelted with stuff like knives and bottles. I've only managed to beat the first level once, and even then, I died a few moments into the second level. Not that there's a real ending anyways. While the arcade version had three distinct levels, with several types of enemies, that went on loop, the Master System version has been limited to one area, with one type of enemy, and also goes on a loop. To put it simply, this is the definition of a classic quarter sucking arcade game.
• Hot Shots Golf 2 (PlayStation 1 - Played on PS4 and PlayStation 3 as an Emulated PS1 Classic)
  • No, you read that correctly. A golf game. Let me explain. A sequel to the first Hot Shots Golf (which was made by Camelot, who would go on to create the Mario Golf series), this game, despite looking like a middle area between the aforementioned Mario Golf games and the more realistic PGA Tour games by EA, it ends up being more - how do I put this, picky? Finicky? What it wants you to do is very specific. Is that the best way of putting it? Let's just say, it's pretty hard for you to even get a par in the game. It just demands that you do the very best with how it plays. What makes something like golf games contrast to other sports games is that, whether you're playing a more arcade-y like title, or a more serious one, it's pretty easy to pickup and play. This one, yes you can pick it up, but can you play it? It's been a few months since I've played it, so maybe that's why I'm having a hard time choosing my words? I think the best way I can describe this is that it's something you'd have to play yourself in order to get it. I originally picked it up as a request from my dad. Turns out he was thinking of one of the PS2 entries in the series. Not that he didn't recognize this one, but because of how it is, he's pretty much stayed away from it. At least it wasn't all in vain though. Buying it off of the PlayStation Store on the PS3 netted me both the PS3 and PS4 ports of the game, with the latter version having trophies, which kind of adds an incentive to replay other than multiplayer. And hey, some of the unlockable characters are kind of cool. Amongst those are three guests, and PlayStation veterans at that. You have Sweet Tooth from Twisted Metal, Sir Dan from Medievil and... Gex?! Since when was he a PlayStation character? And holy crap, this means Gex is on a modern console! I take back everything I said, this game is the best! Gex night!
• Crash Team Racing Nitro-Fueled (PS4)
  • After having played the original Crash trilogy through their N. Sane remakes, I decided to pick this game up when the Nitrous Oxide edition was on sale on the PlayStation store. Like the former trilogy, I've heard of this game's (as in the original version) high praise, both on the internet, and from my dad. Despite having knowledge on Crash even before I played the N. Sane Trilogy, nothing would've prepared me for what was about to come. Going in, I reasonably expected a Mario Kart clone of some sort. Turns out, well, yes, it very much is, but it's so much more. Oh yeah, and the game is hard. No, it's not hard, it's N. Sanely hard. Brutal even. I mean, it kind of checks out with how challenging the trilogy was, but still. The AI opponents are brutal in this game. Never have I faced such agitated CPUs in any kart racer. Just playing through story mode, I find myself constantly being thrown out of the top 3. What makes this even harder is, being a completionist, I've also been trying to complete some of the side stuff as I go along. And I'm not just referring to the added effort of collecting side things. To cite an example, there are the multicolored tokens spread throughout the tracks. Not only do you just have to collect these, but to solidify it, you must also come in first place. With how the AI already is, making it hard enough to place first, but with the addition of having to go out of your way to collect the tokens ensures that the task is even harder.
• Cuphead (PS4)
  • Probably the one thing aside from its literal hand drawn art style that got everyone's attention and became known for, Cuphead is a hard classic run and gunner. Being a game that's mainly composed of boss fights with a few ordinary platforming levels sprinkled throughout, the titular bosses who are in debt to the Devil himself will put you through hell if you want their soul contracts. Precision in both platforming and your shots are required if you want to ensure your survival. Even with the helpful upgrades from the shops, you'll still have to put up with these minutes long, multi-phased bullet hells. There are times where I've put the game on with the intention of furthering my progress, even if it's a little bit, but instead spent hours on one single boss fight.
• Contra Hard Corps (Sega Genesis - Played on PS4 Through an Emulated Version on the Contra Anniversary Collection)
  • Haven't played much of it, but right off the bat, the beginning level sets off the tone for the rest of the game: explosions everywhere and constant death. People say that the NES version of the original Contra was hard, but I'm here to tell you this dwindles that and makes it look like a chump in comparison. That's not to say it wasn't challenging, but that's a story for another day. In regards to Hard Corps though, with it being included in an emulated collection, as most of these tend to have, it has save slots that you can save to and load up at anytime. Now, whenever this type of saving is present in such a game/collection/rerelease/etc, I definitely use it, I won't lie about that. However, I tend to hate abusing these to the extreme, as in, saving every couple seconds or so, as not only does it babify the game in question, but it gets tedious having to save in such short intervals. With Contra Hard Corps, oh boy, did I save a plenty in the first level. Yes, it may be understandable in that it was my first time playing the game, but I've never had to save to such an extreme before just to push through. I only played the game one time afterwards, not because it was hard, but because, like almost all of the games I own both physically and digitally, it's been added to my ever growing omnipresent backlog, filled with games that I have progress of varying amounts on. Maybe I'm just misremembering how many times I saved, but case in point, it's hard.
• Mickey Mania (Sega CD and PS1 - the Former Played on Original Hardware, and the Latter Played on PS3 as an Emulated PS1 Classic)
  • Yes, a Mickey Mouse game made it on the list. For those unaware, just bear with me on that thought. If you've played Castle of Illusion or any of its offshoots, you'll already have an idea on how this game works. It's a tried and true platformer, where you jump on enemies or throw marbles at them to defeat them. Pretty straight forward stuff. It's hard, but not as near impossible as most of the other stuff on this list. What helps elevate the difficulty is just how many chances the game gives you before its game over. You have a handful of lives and a couple of continues, and that's it. You can't anymore through any regular means. There are two secret areas in the game that grant you, like, one, but that's about it. This alone increases the difficulty, as those lives and continues will fly by faster than you can say "Hot Diggity Dog!" The farthest I've made it, which was on the PS1 version (which adds an extra level on top of the extra level the Sega CD version had compared to its Genesis and Super Nintendo contemporaries), was on the level themed around the Mickey cartoon, The Prince and the Pauper. This level in particular is the longest in the game (which makes sense as it's the final level), having several sections to cover. You see, the levels, each themed around a certain cartoon from Mickey's history up until that point, are divided into several sections. I made it to the final section before the final boss, and lost my remaining lives to it, as it involved an unexpected, vertically auto scrolling, part, in a small playing field, where you had to keep platforming upwards (as an ensuing fire, hot on your heels, consumed everything below), all the while avoiding enemies and their projectiles that you couldn't see coming.
• Tails Sky Patrol (Sega Game Gear - Played on PS4 Through Emulated Version on Sonic Origins Plus)
  • Not as hard as it is cheap. There are many times where you'll be punished by death for flying into a wrong path that leads to a dead end, getting crushed between the side of the screen and whatever wall you were pressed up against. This of course led to much saving. Otherwise, an odd (sort of) Sonic themed take on a side scrolling shooter.
• Super Star Wars (SNES)
  • Another hard run and gunner, mixed with some "3D" vehicle sections every so often, and themed around the original film in the franchise, A New Hope. This is another one of those games where enemies are constantly spawning in and you're being shot at and attacked from everywhere. Some careful platforming is also required. I've yet to progress further than the planet, Tatooine.

There's probably more games that I'm just not remembering right now (once again, huge back catalog). On a similar note, there's probably some things from the aforementioned games that I can't recall as of now. If you don't know me by now, I write on here with whatever time I'm allotted in my day. In fact, I planned this a couple days ago, and have been adding to it since. As such, aside from sections that probably could've been written better and more detailed, I also didn't necessarily answer all of the questions I posed earlier (not that they necessarily had to be answered, but still). There's probably also some errors I made here and there in regards to grammar and spelling, but whatever, I'm done with this for now. Maybe I'll revise this at some point. But that's enough about me, you've heard enough of my rambling for the moment. Now tell me your hardest games!

Edit: Before retiring for the night, I just remembered I-Ninja on the GameCube. Will add more tomorrow, but for now, if you don't know it, I suggest seeking it out. An underrated classic/hidden gem if you ask me.

Edited May 2 by The DOMinator

[Shiny Gems]

I would have to say Mickey Mania.

At the same time, I would have to say Ecco the Dolphin: The Tides of Time. I made it a quarter ways through the game, but it was very hard, and I eventually gave up on it. It was a very hard game in itself, and it was hard to control Ecco, too.

[Iko]

I had a very hard time with a couple of "Doujinsoft" games (Japanese indie games) that come directly from the early 2000s when the otaku culture was most popular and there were entire sites dedicated to that type of stuff.

- One is "Super Marisa World". It was a sort of parody of Super Mario World, with similar gameplay (except it didn't have slopes), though it played a lot faster and required pixel perfect precision. The level design was sometimes unfair, or even outright bad in some levels, though there were also some memorable moments, such as when the game required you to navigate a wall of equivalent-of-boos without ever turning back else they would kill you (you literally had to play inside of them, before they became solid). Being based on the Touhou universe, most bosses were bullet hell too, imagine how easy would be to fight super fast bullet hell bosses with a Mario-world-on-steroids gameplay. Level design and insane difficulty aside, the gameplay of this game was very solid and I liked it.

- Fuwaru too (Fuwaru the Apprentice). The game is fine at easy or normal difficulty, though, as you set it on hard, it becomes hell. It's not really "hard" per se, it's just that you will carry the health between levels (in the former difficulties it's reset to max or half when you die, in hard mode you keep the health you had when you reached a level, so if you reach an hard level with just one heart, you will always start the level with one heart unless you give up and restart from the village) and sometimes it's very hard to not get hit: on top of that, there's a timer and you must also take the most money you can get because you need them for upgrades, and the upgrades are needed else you are screwed. The game is completely in Japanese so unless you can read, you have to guess stuff (or maybe use an OCR translator, but it would be complex and boring to do it for every dialogue). Maybe someone of you know the game "Fortune Summoners", Fuwaru is made by the same people (Lizsoft), it's actually older. Despite sharing some similarities, it's quite different in a lot of aspects: Fuwaru is more like a platformer while Fortune Summoners is more action JRRPG with real time battles. Fuwaru doesn't let you alter the trajectory of your jumps after you set them, and the character carries a lot of momentum, so you have to calculate your jumps very well before doing them. Besides, you can summon some creatures that will temporarily change the gameplay until you end the mana bar: think of Adeleine & Ribbon in Kirby Star Allies, the summoning mechanic is similar, though you can select the creatures instead of being on rotation, and they don't disappear with a timer, they disappear when you finish the mana. Artistically, the game takes inspiration from anime such as My Neighbor Totoro and Fun Fun Pharmacy (basically the whole premise of the game is a rip-off of this anime, the creatures are even similar to the ones from it).

(it's kinda hard to find decent screenshots of this game, it's not very popular)

Regarding other more "normal" games, I don't know... sometimes I make the games harder by doing self-imposed challenges or by setting their difficulty to max, so I'm not really sure what games are actually hard and what are just hard because I'm a masochist lol.

- In the last few months I've slowly worked on trying to complete the original Dark Souls (remasterd actually) without ever dying. Not just that... there are strategies to make that task very short and easy... go to the catacombs, rush dodging every enemy and reach Pinwheel AKA the easiest boss in the game that can be defeated at low level, get loads of souls, level up early, go down to blighttownearly with the master key, defeat Quelaag early and gain another load of souls, level up early, the game becomes a joke, especially if you also enter the Nito covenant while you are in the catacombs, and you get his sword (early). I decided to not do any of that, just beat the game normally like if it's your first playthrough. I believe that Dark Souls is not really an hard game, just a really unfair one. Once you know the traps, the way to counter the hard things, etc... it becomes kinda easy... regardless, ther are still parts of the game that rely on RNG and janky collisions (Bed of Chaos, the archers on the rooftops of Anor Londo, etc...) and a good run can still end at random at one of those points... sometimes you just get surrounded by weak enemies, the collisions glitch and you remain stuck helpless and die, or you just sliìde in a pit because whatever. It was a nightmare, for the wrong reasons, don't do it.

- F-Zero GP Legend (GBA), the Zero test: it's a rip-off of Gran Turismo's licenses, though some of the requirements for a gold cup are hellish and you may get stuck for days on just one single mission. Gran Turismo's licenses are also very hard to get a gold at, and I did it in all of them in Gran Turismo 1, 2 and especially 3 PAL, the hardest of all, the PAL version has harder requirements compared to the NTSC one too.

I really can't remember, there's surely more but I can't remember, really. Maybe Binding of Isaac and Meat Boy, I'm not sure if RNG and ignorant trial and error does count as actual difficulty though.

EDIT: Oh I forgot Ninja Gaiden NES, I played it on a NES Mini before being aware that it's considered one of the hardest games ever. I completed it, though I can't remember if I cheated with saves near the end (final boss), because when you died it forced you to replay a long part of the level or something and it was getting late + it was annoying and time consuming (or maybe I didn't cheat, I really can't remember at all). The rest of the game I did it legit for sure, even though it was hard indeed. Zelda 2 (and by extension Ax Battler: A Legend of Golden Axe that's a pseudo-rip-off) is also kinda hard and I completed it without cheating (Ax Battler too).

Edited May 2 by Iko

[Knight Terror]

Comix Zone,

Still haven't beaten it, but I love it.

And no I'm not just bad, this game is a nightmare

[Salamander]

Being honest, there are plenty of games with a reputation for being hard which I've avoided for that reason.  On the other hand, I do play a lot of RPGs which are supposed to be hard - but the games which stick in my mind as the most difficult aren't RPGs at all...

The B-sides and C-sides in Celeste made me cry like an anime fan on prom night (not literally).  They require such precision, and such consistency... and, turns out?  My brain is terrible at consistency.  I can learn maybe half of a long, hard room just fine; but the moment my brain starts learning the second half, it chucks out all that data on the first half and I start dying at the beginning again.  The result is that, for me, hard platforming is basically luck-based - will my fingers make exactly the right movements in exactly the right sequence this time?  I don't know!

On the complete flip side, Baba Is You.  What a mind-melter.  I try to avoid looking up solutions, but I've definitely had real blind spots where I've had to check things online.  The game got an update a while ago with a sort of museum full of bonus levels and stuff, and I'm honestly intimidated.

[Iko]

9 minutes ago, Salamander said:

On the complete flip side, Baba Is You.  What a mind-melter.  I try to avoid looking up solutions, but I've definitely had real blind spots where I've had to check things online.  The game got an update a while ago with a sort of museum full of bonus levels and stuff, and I'm honestly intimidated.

Baba is You is great, I loved it too. I played it before that update so I should check it again.

I didn't play Celeste but I believe it's kinda similar to Meat Boy, or anyway all those intentionally frustrating platformers such as "I Wanna be the Guy" (I purposely avoided them because I don't like that type of difficulty based on memorization and trial and error). Though, this made me remember that I also finished Hollow Knight with all the achievements, and I also completed all the pantheons of the final DLC (the last one was a pain and required me days), though I didn't do them with the debuffs, it unlocks a little easter egg if you complete all of them with all the debuffs, though they are already a pain normally, I'll never do them with even more pain involved (it's not required for getting all the achievements anyway, it's just flex and lore).

Yeah it was the freakin Path of Pain that made me remember.

Edited May 2 by Iko

[SpeedyChilidogs]

You guys,  over here stating games I've never known of it kinda makes my answer seem basic lol but I do know Cuphead and I can agree you can't imagine how much I've raged on that game, And I still have yet to finish it cuz of other games lol. 

To answer the question tho, My answer would be Mario Sunshine, I have finished it, and I took a ton of breaks that game is annoying for me, mainly cuz of the no Flud levels and the physics of the game are terrible, And this is coming from someone who grew up with newer Mario games in prefer them from the older ones, like is it just me or is Mario so slippery in that game. nonetheless, it's a fun game and I am a decent Mario game fan, and it's annoying to play.

[ZinogreVolt]

Shiren the Wanderer: The Tower of Fortune and The Dice of Fate, and Shiren the Wanderer: The Mystery Dungeon of Serpentcoil Island. Both brutally difficult games that are punishing and fair, and usually it only takes some experimentation to overcome problems. But the high RNG factor means you can basically never fall back on any particular strategy. What makes the games so devastatingly difficult is a combination of it being VERY easy to die, and needing to accrue a ton of game knowledge in very broad play systems. Especially challenging in gimmick-centric dungeons (Cat Ching's Divine Will in Shiren 6 took me more than 100 tries to clear) where rules and expectations may be flipped on their head, and you have to adapt while trying to survive.

Outside of those, Ys games on their respective highest difficulties can be really taxing too. Etrian Odyssey 1 Untold on Expert Mode is also the most difficult turn-based game I've played outside of Shiren, with ambush encounters usually meaning a wipe if I don't prepare in advance for that possibility.

[The DOMinator]

10 hours ago, Shiny Gems said:

I would have to say Mickey Mania.

Agreed, although I'm sure you already read what I wrote.

10 hours ago, Shiny Gems said:

At the same time, I would have to say Ecco the Dolphin: The Tides of Time. I made it a quarter ways through the game, but it was very hard, and I eventually gave up on it. It was a very hard game in itself, and it was hard to control Ecco, too.

I haven't played much of the Ecco games, only having dabbled a bit in each of the Genesis titles (1, ToT, and Jr.) due to their inclusion in compilations and plug and play consoles. I haven't really gotten into them. From what I have played though, combined with what I've seen on the internet of people's thoughts on the games, I can definitely see how they're a bit of a challenge, and how much harder they get as you go along. And yeah, Ecco's floatiness underwater takes a bit of getting used to, and can easily cause you to bump into something.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

One is "Super Marisa World". It was a sort of parody of Super Mario World, with similar gameplay (except it didn't have slopes), though it played a lot faster and required pixel perfect precision. The level design was sometimes unfair, or even outright bad in some levels, though there were also some memorable moments, such as when the game required you to navigate a wall of equivalent-of-boos without ever turning back else they would kill you (you literally had to play inside of them, before they became solid). Being based on the Touhou universe, most bosses were bullet hell too, imagine how easy would be to fight super fast bullet hell bosses with a Mario-world-on-steroids gameplay. Level design and insane difficulty aside, the gameplay of this game was very solid and I liked it.

Sounds like something that could be up my alley. Maybe I ought to give it a shot sometime. Also, this just reminded me of all of the Kaizo Mario World ROM hacks that I use to see all over the internet.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

it's just that you will carry the health between levels (in the former difficulties it's reset to max or half when you die, in hard mode you keep the health you had when you reached a level, so if you reach an hard level with just one heart, you will always start the level with one heart unless you give up and restart from the village) and sometimes it's very hard to not get hit:

Those kind of games are always infuriating.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

Regarding other more "normal" games, I don't know... sometimes I make the games harder by doing self-imposed challenges or by setting their difficulty to max, so I'm not really sure what games are actually hard and what are just hard because I'm a masochist lol.

Completely understandable.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

In the last few months I've slowly worked on trying to complete the original Dark Souls (remasterd actually) without ever dying. Not just that... there are strategies to make that task very short and easy... go to the catacombs, rush dodging every enemy and reach Pinwheel AKA the easiest boss in the game that can be defeated at low level, get loads of souls, level up early, go down to blighttownearly with the master key, defeat Quelaag early and gain another load of souls, level up early, the game becomes a joke, especially if you also enter the Nito covenant while you are in the catacombs, and you get his sword (early). I decided to not do any of that, just beat the game normally like if it's your first playthrough. I believe that Dark Souls is not really an hard game, just a really unfair one. Once you know the traps, the way to counter the hard things, etc... it becomes kinda easy... regardless, ther are still parts of the game that rely on RNG and janky collisions (Bed of Chaos, the archers on the rooftops of Anor Londo, etc...) and a good run can still end at random at one of those points... sometimes you just get surrounded by weak enemies, the collisions glitch and you remain stuck helpless and die, or you just sliìde in a pit because whatever. It was a nightmare, for the wrong reasons, don't do it.

I hear that game is hard enough on its own. I wish you luck on your self imposed torture challenge!

4 hours ago, Iko said:

I'm not sure if RNG and ignorant trial and error does count as actual difficulty though.

I'll count it. This whole topic is about the hardest games you ever played. This can be different from person to person, and said hardness can come in any form, including RNG and ignorant trial and error.

4 hours ago, Iko said:

Oh I forgot Ninja Gaiden NES, I played it on a NES Mini before being aware that it's considered one of the hardest games ever. I completed it, though I can't remember if I cheated with saves near the end (final boss), because when you died it forced you to replay a long part of the level or something and it was getting late + it was annoying and time consuming (or maybe I didn't cheat, I really can't remember at all). The rest of the game I did it legit for sure, even though it was hard indeed.

I also know of its hard status. Like with Ecco though, I've only dabbled a bit with Ninja Gaiden, as it's included, along with with its two sequels, on a bootleg NES Mini that I own. I can relate to the whole saves thing, having taken that route in the past with some games just to avoid being brought back to an annoying part earlier on.

4 hours ago, Knight Terror said:

Comix Zone,

Still haven't beaten it, but I love it.

And no I'm not just bad, this game is a nightmare

Oh no, it's a nightmare all right. Completely forgot about this one! Should've been included in my list, but I forgot about it since I haven't touched it in a while. I've only played it through emulated rereleases, such as on Sonic Mega Collection Plus, different Genesis collections, etc, but regardless, it took me a while to even get passed the first level, with one frustrating moment in particular bring this hard to make jump near the end of said level. Still, it's a lovable game, and I'm glad to hear Sega's looking to expand upon this game (I think Sega announced it as a possible future movie adaption alongside other properties they own, but that is, if I recall correctly). Also, off topic, but a bonus CD? I think I heard of/seen this somewhere, but never knew what was on it. Although, I only recognize one of the names listed anyways (Danzig).

4 hours ago, Salamander said:

cry like an anime fan on prom night

I asked you to list off the hardest games you've ever played, not remind me of Mighty No.9 .

4 hours ago, Salamander said:

They require such precision, and such consistency... and, turns out?  My brain is terrible at consistency.  I can learn maybe half of a long, hard room just fine; but the moment my brain starts learning the second half, it chucks out all that data on the first half and I start dying at the beginning again.  The result is that, for me, hard platforming is basically luck-based - will my fingers make exactly the right movements in exactly the right sequence this time?  I don't know!

Relatable. Actually, that's a bit too on the nose. Knock it off.

In a ll seriousness, games that are trial and error based that require you to memorize an entire level can get you worrisome, anxious even, the more you go on. Anxiety kicks up if the level becomes exceedingly long.

3 hours ago, SpeedyChilidogs said:

You guys,  over here stating games I've never known of it kinda makes my answer seem basic lol but I do know Cuphead and I can agree you can't imagine how much I've raged on that game, And I still have yet to finish it cuz of other games lol. 

To answer the question tho, My answer would be Mario Sunshine, I have finished it, and I took a ton of breaks that game is annoying for me, mainly cuz of the no Flud levels and the physics of the game are terrible, And this is coming from someone who grew up with newer Mario games in prefer them from the older ones, like is it just me or is Mario so slippery in that game. nonetheless, it's a fun game and I am a decent Mario game fan, and it's annoying to play.

Nah, your answer ain't basic. Cuphead is indeed a grueling gauntlet of game. As for Mario Sunshine, well, your the first I've heard from say the game is hard, but then again, I never did a deep dive into people's thoughts on the difficulty. I can imagine though having grown up with the more recent titles made this quite the rude awakening.

3 hours ago, ZinogreVolt said:

But the high RNG factor means you can basically never fall back on any particular strategy.

...And there goes the mention of RNG again. Obviously that wasn't the only factor in your case, but now I'm starting to wonder just how many games were hard for people because of a randomly generated something, whether it be enemies, the dropping of helpful items, etc. As@Ikopointed out earlier, it does bring into question whether RNG counts as actual difficulty though. Is it a legitimate source of challenge if it's completely dependent on the luck of the draw?

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, The DOMinator said:

Agreed, although I'm sure you already read what I wrote.

Yeah, I was pretty sure I mentioned playing Mickey Mania on another thread. That is why I brought it up.

Then again, I was a little kid, so I may not have known what I was doing. It was probably hard anyway, though.

[Maple Syrup]

Every video game I ever played.

[SpeedyChilidogs]

1 hour ago, The DOMinator said:

Nah, your answer ain't basic. Cuphead is indeed a grueling gauntlet of game. As for Mario Sunshine, well, your the first I've heard from say the game is hard, but then again, I never did a deep dive into people's thoughts on the difficulty. I can imagine though having grown up with the more recent titles made this quite the rude awakening.

Yeah, Lmao I can imagine, Honestly just thinking about the game is giving me flashbacks, and I've never asked anyone else about the difficulty for them as well. I wonder if it would feel any different on its original console, (GameCube I think?) cuz I'm playing it on the Switch. but outta anything I'll leave it alone it's definitely not a game I would replay anytime soon. 

[ZinogreVolt]

7 hours ago, The DOMinator said:

...And there goes the mention of RNG again. Obviously that wasn't the only factor in your case, but now I'm starting to wonder just how many games were hard for people because of a randomly generated something, whether it be enemies, the dropping of helpful items, etc. As@Ikopointed out earlier, it does bring into question whether RNG counts as actual difficulty though. Is it a legitimate source of challenge if it's completely dependent on the luck of the draw?

I think RNG can actually provide a greater challenge than games with set parameters. Especially in RPGs, it can be a very good way of testing the player's adaptability and general understanding of gameplay, and at best it can encourage a lot of creativity and improvisation (which the aforementioned Shiren games excel at), so I think it's entirely valid to say RNG can create difficulty.

[The DOMinator]

37 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Especially in RPGs, it can be a very good way of testing the player's adaptability and general understanding of gameplay, and at best it can encourage a lot of creativity and improvisation

Huh, didn't think about that. Those are some pretty valid points!

[Iko]

6 hours ago, The DOMinator said:

Sounds like something that could be up my alley. Maybe I ought to give it a shot sometime. Also, this just reminded me of all of the Kaizo Mario World ROM hacks that I use to see all over the internet.

There are a few kaizo moments, but in general the style of level design is quite different than most kaizo roms/levels. It's a lot more open ended, as opposite to kaizo levels where you usually are forced to do some very specific actions with very specific timing in order to progress.

I would suggest you to try them out (both Marisa World and Fuwaru, they're both interesting), though I'm not sure they're still easy to find nowadays.

I think that Fuwaru can still be purchased and downloaded legally from a Japanese site linked on Lizsoft's website.

About Marisa World, the official website of Double Cluster (http://tsubu.ath.cx/~double-cluster/) is dead. There are a couple of places where you may still find the game up for download (not official obviously), but they might not be the final version. There are some updates to the final version (else some content might be missing, including whole levels), they were on the official website and luckily can still be found on the Internet Archive by loading the most recent backup of the official site, you need to download the "Ver1.00/1.01/1.02/1.02d/1.03 to 1.05" or "Ver1.03 to 1.05" patches depending on the version you have ("Ver1.00 to 1.01" is pretty pointless I think). There's also a demo of the game (just under the patches on the website's page) that's based on a very old build and has a couple of collision glitches that the final game doesn't have, other than a few visual differences (some placeholder graphics).

7 hours ago, The DOMinator said:

I hear that game is hard enough on its own. I wish you luck on your self imposed torture challenge!

LOL yeah it was a torture indeed! Anyway I already completed it a few days ago, it took me months of training as I said.

Besides, I forgot to mention that I finished Cuphead too, and I agree with both you and @SpeedyChilidogs. It was years ago, I can't remember very well now, but I think there were some side objectives such as a rank or a perfect bonus, I don't know... after I finished the game I started doing that to every level/boss, but then I gave up because it was too much frustrating (still did it on some levels though, can't remember what and how many).

5 hours ago, SpeedyChilidogs said:

Yeah, Lmao I can imagine, Honestly just thinking about the game is giving me flashbacks, and I've never asked anyone else about the difficulty for them as well. I wonder if it would feel any different on its original console, (GameCube I think?) cuz I'm playing it on the Switch. but outta anything I'll leave it alone it's definitely not a game I would replay anytime soon. 

Mario Sunshine has its hard moments, I understand that. There was that level where you have to navigate a river on a leaf and move it by using the fludd's shot to gain speed, while the river also had its flow, and the water was insta-kill. If you skipped some red coins on that river, you had to do the course backward, and walk on a very thin road that was in the middle between the toxic water and the void (both insta kills). I still like the game a lot anyway... I think it has some pretty good physics and controls but it's still kinda slippery and hardcore in general, plus the level design is not really focused and balanced like in the more recent games. It plays definitely better on a Gamecube, mainly for the Gamecube pad, especially the analog triggers with the "click" at the end, and the cam mapped in the correct way (the Switch version made a bit of a mess with the mapping of the cam stick, I believe they put some options to flip the axis and revert it back to how it was with an update, though they still made it confusing).

32 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

I think RNG can actually provide a greater challenge than games with set parameters. Especially in RPGs, it can be a very good way of testing the player's adaptability and general understanding of gameplay, and at best it can encourage a lot of creativity and improvisation (which the aforementioned Shiren games excel at), so I think it's entirely valid to say RNG can create difficulty.

It depends on the type of RNG... In the case of Binding of Isaac there's a lot of RNG to test your adaptability, but also a lot of RNG that you need in order to complete some specific objectives (find a specific combination of objects, find a specific boss that may or may not appear, etc), and that one is out of your control, it's just a matter of luck, like a lootbox. Also, still in Isaac, sometimes the RNG plays in your favor and will allow you to make completely broken builds that will destroy any difficulty in the game (like, hold the attack button and everything explodes, you don't even have to aim). You still have to be careful because the wrong item can ruin the build and turn it against you, but still.

A thing that I don't like of Isaac is that a lot of objectives are secret and there's no way to discover them if not by reading them on a wiki.

-----

Another thing that I forgot to list:

There was a videogame called "Driver", and its tutorial was one of the hardest things in gaming. Yes, the tutorial, and you couldn't begin the story mode until you did the tutorial right.

[The DOMinator]

12 minutes ago, Iko said:

I would suggest you to try them out (both Marisa World and Fuwaru, they're both interesting), though I'm not sure they're still easy to find nowadays.

I think that Fuwaru can still be purchased and downloaded legally from a Japanese site linked on Lizsoft's website.

About Marisa World, the official website of Double Cluster (http://tsubu.ath.cx/~double-cluster/) is dead. There are a couple of places where you may still find the game up for download (not official obviously), but they might not be the final version. There are some updates to the final version (else some content might be missing, including whole levels), they were on the official website and luckily can still be found on the Internet Archive by loading the most recent backup of the official site, you need to download the "Ver1.00/1.01/1.02/1.02d/1.03 to 1.05" or "Ver1.03 to 1.05" patches depending on the version you have ("Ver1.00 to 1.01" is pretty pointless I think). There's also a demo of the game (just under the patches on the website's page) that's based on a very old build and has a couple of collision glitches that the final game doesn't have, other than a few visual differences (some placeholder graphics).

Thanks for all of the info! I'll look into it... that is, when I get a chance. I already have a huge backlog of games to complete, each with varying amounts of progress, and some that haven't even been started!

15 minutes ago, Iko said:

LOL yeah it was a torture indeed! Anyway I already completed it a few days ago, it took me months of training as I said.

Well then, congrats!

16 minutes ago, Iko said:

It was years ago, I can't remember very well now, but I think there were some side objectives such as a rank or a perfect bonus, I don't know... after I finished the game I started doing that to every level/boss, but then I gave up because it was too much frustrating (still did it on some levels though, can't remember what and how many).

No, your right. I haven't even beaten the game yet, and after seeing that and how they're coupled with some achievements (meaning it's required for 100% completion), I'm kind of overwhelmed, and unsure if I'll go through it some time. Knowing me, I'll probably try my hand at high ranks and perfect bonuses at some point, but for now, I'm just glad to be passing by with whatever rank I get, as per the usual playing through a game for the first time.

20 minutes ago, Iko said:

especially the analog triggers with the "click" at the end

Gotta love those pressure sensitive triggers.

43 minutes ago, Iko said:

It depends on the type of RNG... In the case of Binding of Isaac there's a lot of RNG to test your adaptability, but also a lot of RNG that you need in order to complete some specific objectives (find a specific combination of objects, find a specific boss that may or may not appear, etc), and that one is out of your control, it's just a matter of luck, like a lootbox. Also, still in Isaac, sometimes the RNG plays in your favor and will allow you to make completely broken builds that will destroy any difficulty in the game (like, hold the attack button and everything explodes, you don't even have to aim). You still have to be careful because the wrong item can ruin the build and turn it against you, but still.

So, RNG can both be a test of a player's skill, and a luck of the draw that determines your fate. That is, unless I somehow contradicted myself without even knowing it.

52 minutes ago, Iko said:

There was a videogame called "Driver", and its tutorial was one of the hardest things in gaming. Yes, the tutorial, and you couldn't begin the story mode until you did the tutorial right.

Well, at least it seems like they made sure you were ready for the real challenge! 

[Salamander]

As a SaGa player, I have learnt to love the randomness.

But in an RPG it's also rarely possible to truly softlock yourself, whereas in a platformer or any action-based game (or, conversely, a puzzle game), it's possible to hit a personal skill ceiling.  The last game I remember truly stretching me like that was Bloodstained: Curse Of The Moon 2; it's a step-up in difficulty from the first game as a whole, and there's a sarcophagus boss which is just brutal.  Many attempts were made; they are very challenging games if you want to do everything.

[Iko]

Worms Armageddon has some pretty tough challenges in training and mission mode. On PC there are ways to cheat (by editing some files to increase the amount of ammonitions for your weapons), and the first time I cheated a lot, though a few years ago I replayed it and completed it without cheating. Some missions are really annoying, especially if you want to get the gold medal.

Worms is also a good example of RNG as a test of skills rather than just luck; in some modes, maps are procedurally generated, the worms start in random positions and the crates spawn at random places with random content (level geometry and positioning are very important in a physics based strategy game with platforming mechanics). The game always puts skills above all, if you are good you should be able to overcome any situation. Unlucky scenarios where you lose without being able to act can happen, but they are very rare and most of the times they are extremely funny even though you still lose.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, also reaching the highest rank in the main mode was a pain. You regress one rank each time you lose, and the last few ranks put you in huge disadvantage against a horde of enemy bot worms of the hardest level.

Edited May 6 by Iko

[The DOMinator]

8 hours ago, Iko said:

Worms Armageddon has some pretty tough challenges in training and mission mode. On PC there are ways to cheat (by editing some files to increase the amount of ammonitions for your weapons), and the first time I cheated a lot, though a few years ago I replayed it and completed it without cheating. Some missions are really annoying, especially if you want to get the gold medal.

Worms is also a good example of RNG as a test of skills rather than just luck; in some modes, maps are procedurally generated, the worms start in random positions and the crates spawn at random places with random content (level geometry and positioning are very important in a physics based strategy game with platforming mechanics). The game always puts skills above all, if you are good you should be able to overcome any situation. Unlucky scenarios where you lose without being able to act can happen, but they are very rare and most of the times they are extremely funny even though you still lose.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, also reaching the highest rank in the main mode was a pain. You regress one rank each time you lose, and the last few ranks put you in huge disadvantage against a horde of enemy bot worms of the hardest level.

I've dipped a bit into the PS1 version of Worms World Party via PS Plus Premium on the PS4, after having played Rumble a couple years back when it came out (also via PS Plus), and finding out that it played differently than the other games in this newly discovered series for me. I chose this game over Armageddon after having found out that PS1 World Party is just PS1 Armageddon with a little more features, in comparison to their PC counterparts, where Armageddon comes out on top. In addition, if I was to ever actually purchase one of the games, PS1 World Party is oddly cheaper than Armageddon on the PlayStation Store. Anyways, back to what you were saying, I did notice during some of my brief plays of the game the RNG element, and how it tests skill, as well sometimes enacting unlucky scenarios. I found myself getting destroyed at first while messing around with a simple death match battle to get use to how the game worked, but I quickly got the gist of it, and found it to be pretty fun, as well as funny sometimes. Haven't played with it much since (I think I completed some missions?), but it's something I'm thinking about going back to at some point.