Is the Classic style of storytelling for Sonic games outdated, or does it need better writers?

[Shiny Gems]

As we all know, most of the Classic Sonic games had stories that had no dialogue in them. The characters would just do things in the cutscenes of such games, and it worked out pretty well. However, by the time of Sonic Superstars, that form of storytelling had issues as it would seem, as some players could not tell what was going on in some cases, so they might have not understood some things about the story. There may be other issues as well. Now, keep in mind that Sonic Superstars was done by Arzest, which many know of as a not so great game developer. So they may have written some things wrong, despite being composed of people who worked on the Classic Sega Genesis/Mega Drive Sonic games as it has been said. Now, with all that said, I would like to ask...

Is the no-dialogue storytelling of the Classic Sonic games outdated now, or would you say it could still work, but needs better writers?

I am asking all this to make sure, because I do have a feeling it may have been just the writing, and I do not want to assume that the style of storytelling in Classic Sonic games is really outdated right away.

So, what would you all say about this?

[GX -The Spindash-]

Did people legitimately have trouble deciphering the story? I thought it was pretty straightforward. The only aspect that they really did no meaningful job explaining was the final, final, final boss. And even then... well, it's a big ol' thing that looks bad, so I guess go fight it?

I wouldn't say that the style is inherently outdated, but the story that it tells is pretty basic, and mostly exists just to give the player a vague transition  from level to level. It's functional. Cute yes, but functional nonetheless.

To a degree, I prefer them to the Modern Sonic style of storytelling, which over-tells its often fairly basic (or occasionally needlessly convoluted) stories with excessive dialog and cutscenes.  In a medium that's built around turning show-don't-tell into do-don't-tell, Sonic's still firmly working in the stop-and-tell arena. There's probably a satisfying compromise somewhere, but Superstars' story at least doesn't overstay its welcome.

[Shiny Gems]

3 minutes ago, GX -The Spindash- said:

Did people legitimately have trouble deciphering the story? I thought it was pretty straightforward. The only aspect that they really did no meaningful job explaining was the final, final, final boss. And even then... well, it's a big ol' thing that looks bad, so I guess go fight it?

I wouldn't say that the style is inherently outdated, but the story that it tells is pretty basic, and mostly exists just to give the player a vague transition  from level to level. It's functional. Cute yes, but functional nonetheless.

To a degree, I prefer them to the Modern Sonic style of storytelling, which over-tells its often fairly basic (or occasionally needlessly convoluted) stories with excessive dialog and cutscenes.  In a medium that's built around turning show-don't-tell into do-don't-tell, Sonic's still firmly working in the stop-and-tell arena. There's probably a satisfying compromise somewhere, but Superstars' story at least doesn't overstay its welcome.

Sorry, I just remember seeing someone saying that they, at least, could not understand what was going on in Sonic Superstars. Maybe they are moreso Modern Sonic fans, or could it be, well, another reason?

[castell-neath]

The classic storytelling (no dialogue) was REALLY well done in Sonic 4 I thought. The cutscenes work well to explain what is what and how / why Metal is back (although he should be in  "good future" - not bad!!!), the Death Egg Mk2 launch, Etc. Sonic 3&K was the same with the Knuckles' battles / Eggman's Master Emerald Heist, Supersonic  arriving and lising the emeralds at the start, etc. 

Superstars went backwards in this regard I feel. No idea why. So yes, it can, and has worked....its just that superstars didnt do it very well at all.

 

[Shiny Gems]

5 minutes ago, castell-neath said:

The classic storytelling (no dialogue) was REALLY well done in Sonic 4 I thought. The cutscenes work well to explain what is what and how / why Metal is back (although he should be in  "good future" - not bad!!!), the Death Egg Mk2 launch, Etc. Sonic 3&K was the same with the Knuckles' battles / Eggman's Master Emerald Heist, Supersonic  arriving and lising the emeralds at the start, etc. 

Superstars went backwards in this regard I feel. No idea why. So yes, it can, and has worked....its just that superstars didnt do it very well at all.

 

Now, that is what I was talking about, especially in regards to Superstars and the needing better writing part.

I honestly never thought that form of storytelling was, well… outdated. Still, due to what happened with Superstars as was said, I thought I’d just make this topic to make sure.

[The Swordsman]

11 minutes ago, castell-neath said:

(although he should be in  "good future" - not bad!!!)

Superstars went backwards in this regard I feel. No idea why. So yes, it can, and has worked....its just that superstars didnt do it very well at all.

 

As long as we assume Metal Sonic did appear again in Superstars then Mania actually fixed that plot hole. Encore mode has Stardust Speedway in its Bad Future state where Metal is left at and unlike in the main game, Sonic and friends don't really solve anything in the true ending.

While I disagree, I think I can explain why it has that feeling. Superstars is very reliant on its free supplementary material to give context to the cutscenes it does have, so its easy to get lost without those. (as the mural that is the linchpin for everything is a blink and you'll miss it detail in the Knuckles act ending cutscene)

As for the the topic's question, I don't think it's outdated just a style of storytelling.

[MetalSkulkBane]

You're wrong. Well, kinda.

Let's start by saying that only Sonic 3 tells any story without dialogue. Others either fail spectacularly or require you to read the manual. Otherwise, no one would even know Sonic 2 has Death Egg in it. Or what the hell is going on in Sonic CD.

The only clever wordless storytelling (that elevates Sonic beyond Mario or Kirby) are trapped animals. You break badnik, you free animal. You finish the stage, you open a capsule with animals. Very clear message about what Eggman is doing and why you're stopping him.

Sonic 3 requires you to read the manual if you want to know who is Knuckles and why he works with Eggman. Even the threat of Death Egg is a bit vague if you didn't read the manual (or played Sonic 2... and read it's manual). Still, if you just play the game, it kinda works with only cutscenes.

So why Superstars fails?
1) Lack of hype premise
"Stop Death Egg from launching" "Bowser kidnapped Peach" "If Chaos gets all emerald it will be unstoppable" "Dracula is about to be resurrected"
You don't need a lot of dialogue to set dramatic stakes. But "Eggman captures animals again... but this time they are fat" is silly. And despite what Neo Classic games try to tell you, Classic Sonic had stakes.
2)  The story is basically Sonic 3 again, but worse.
I mean, that's kinda evident, right?
3) Complicated plot twists
In the 90s manuals existed. That how people knew who Knuckles was, what's Master Emerald, why he worked for Eggman.
In futuristic 2023 we have manuals, cartoons, comic, social media and computing power to actually do cutscenes. But guess what? I still don't know anything. Who Trip is? Or what's with her transformation? Or what is Black Dragon? Or what's that weird gem?

This is the lie of "no cutscene stories". Either make them even simpler than Sonic 3 or actually TELL the dang story. With words, if you must, but tell it.

Edited January 19 by MetalSkulkBane

[Salamander]

I think Superstars's failing was more that it needed a few more cutscenes, or occasionally a little more emphasis on what was already there - that very brief glimpse of a very tiny version of the dragon mural from the prologue animation, for instance, or the dark egg that's there all along in the map screen, these need a bit more emphasis.  Ultimately I think it's quite possible to put everything together, and there are a few things which don't actually need any further explanation despite some argument to the contrary.  But the game could do with being a bit more explicit about some of what's going on in the very endgame.

Additionally, whilst I disagree with much of the above post, I think it's a fair shout that the game did lack a unique "hook".

[MetalSkulkBane]

20 minutes ago, Salamander said:

Additionally, whilst I disagree with much of the above post, I think it's a fair shout that the game did lack a unique "hook".

Care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious.

[Wraith]

4 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

You're wrong. Well, kinda.

Let's start by saying that only Sonic 3 tells any story without dialogue. Others either fail spectacularly or require you to read the manual.

Sonic CD succeeds with even less cutscenes than 3 by just letting the player make choices to explore Little Planet and discover what the stakes actually are organically. Even aside from that, Sonic 2 can't be considered a complete failure with how well it plays the expectation of Tails always being by your side against you in it's finale and this is all building off the foundation Sonic 1 set of a clean, easy to read conflict.

As the above post shows part of the problem is that younger, Y2K and onward era Sonic fans can't be asked to appreciate more classic style video game storytelling.

Aside from that though I'd argue that Sonic Superstars ratchets up the complexity of the story by a notable degree while toning down the amount of legwork it actually wants to do. The Sonic Adventure games barely earn their Kaiju battle finales as is, so trying to do that while putting maybe a quarter of the elbow grease in was always going to be a risk. I had less of a grasp of what was actually going on here than i did in Mania and that was an excuse plot designed to thread unrelated locations together somehow.

I think both things are issues in this case.

Edited January 19 by Wraith

[Milo]

I guess if this is something of a criticism thread for the classic approach of storytelling, I've got one thing to say that's moreso me being critical of a side property of the storytelling. If we're going to have additional story modes that don't take place during the main campaign (whether it's character-based like Knuckles and Trip, or a New Game Plus mode like Mania's Encore Mode--all of which take place after the "main" story), the designers need to put more work into making them feel more like distinct experiences.

At the very least, if you can't have a whole new campaign of new zones, or a whole campaign of new level maps for the main zones, at least change up the level order--and I say this not only in having the zone progression shuffled around to a different sequence (and new cutscenes/transitions to match), but also be willing to take out existing zones, add new ones not in the main campaign if possible, and change the number of acts for the zones, among other things. Different (background) environment art for existing zones, that showcase players going through different locations within the same zone, would also help a bit too.

I'm split between Knuckles' campaign in S&K and Episode Metal from Sonic 4 being the best examples we have so far. S&K because it does make an effort to change Knuckles' campaign (mainly by reduction) to recognize the previous events that happened in Sonic/Tails' campaign; although it does bluff in some areas (the entirety of Flying Battery being included and Sandopolis with its fixed sand traps, though the zone also recognizes the freed ghosts). Episode Metal meanwhile actually has the level order of Episode I in reverse and does give Metal Sonic a unique backstory that leads into Episode II, although it's very short (one act per zone) and has some continuity flubs on its own, with its retroactive changes made to Sonic CD's ending.

Mania's Encore Mode is a mixed bag because even though it's by and large the same campaign beyond modified level layouts, recolored assets, and the addition of an abridged Angel Island Zone at the beginning. You could largely write-off everything being "reset" from the main campaign as Phantom Ruby shenanigans. However, it is also a double edged sword because the Phantom Ruby's unpredictable nature could allowed for a much more unique post-game that unfortunately wasn't realized. Trip's Story in Superstars is the worst in this regard in how it has the same issues I have with Knuckles in S&K and Mania's Encore Mode, but also lacks any meaningful narrative changes, nor any plot devices that could excuse said lack of narrative changes.

Edited January 20 by Milo

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't think it's a matter of the Classic style being outdated or in need of better writers. I think it's a matter of them not doing enough showing with their storytelling.

Now, I haven't play Superstars, so I can't really judge anything on that front. But I have played Mania and Mania Plus, and let me tell you that prior to Plus there was a distinct lack of showing when it comes to certain transition between levels or visuals to explain the story until Plus came in to fill them gaps.

And mind you, I'm the person who would prefer dialogue in stories, but S3&K is my all time favorite Sonic game and it does a remarkable job in at least showing you its story. It might also be a case of nostalgia and looking back on a game that is over 20 years old, but this actually highlights a point that I think later entries trying to capture its storytelling style aren't doing well--Sonic 3&K was made on far limited hardware compared to the modern tech that we play Mania and Superstars on. Mania and Superstars should have far less limitations on how to show its scenes and transitions even if you going to eschew on the dialogue between the characters. They should be more capable of showing things to the player in its scenes alone to give players an idea on what is actually going on, but there are noticable gaps that lead to topics like this.

For example, I'm hearing of a "Dark Dragon" in Superstars that seems to come out of nowhere with little hints barring the early trailer of Trip, Nack, and Eggman venturing through the ruins where they see a mural of it. Now, again, I haven't played Superstars, so I'm only going on hearsay, but you could have moments of scenery showing more hints of the dragon that would be encountered in the game. In Mania before Plus came in, there should've been better transitions between certain levels (it's been a while since I played it, so I can't remember specifically where the gaps were here when it wasn't the Phantom Ruby's doing). We could excuse gaps like this in S3&K in the past (come to think of it, the only gap in that game is really Sonic's transition from the Death Egg to the Doomsday Zone while every level has at least an explainable transition from one zone to another), but today's games have more room to show more scenes to hint or at least visually detail what may occur later on that they're not really doing well in showing.

So, if I were to make an observation, it's that those implementing the classic style of storytelling need to stop being lazy about showing. It's either an effort thing or a budget thing if you ask me, because otherwise you really wouldn't have this problem.

Edited January 20 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[MetalSkulkBane]

 

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

Sonic CD succeeds with even less cutscenes than 3 by just letting the player make choices to explore Little Planet and discover what the stakes actually are organically. Even aside from that, Sonic 2 can't be considered a complete failure with how well it plays the expectation of Tails always being by your side against you in it's finale and this is all building off the foundation Sonic 1 set of a clean, easy to read conflict.

Hmm, those are very good points.

Sonic 2 has that tiny storytelling with Tails. Plus, while the game fails to show you Death Egg, you know that you're going to space, which raises the stakes and (at the time) was a novel idea.

And I'm split about CD. Yes, if you explore you can see a good and bad future (stakes) or Metal Sonic hologram (rival tension). However, the game fails to tell you how to do that. Who plays Sonic games with exploration in mind? Most people play 2D all platformers with a "keep going right" mentality. So without outside guidance (manual), most first players will run next to time travel posts and not realize how they work. (Yes, the first post is made so it's almost impossible to avoid time travel. But I still feel like it might fly over the first players head. I suppose the game was meant to be replayed anyway?)

And here's the thing: I love Sonic CD intro. To this day it is best Sonic animation, encapsulating perfectly the beauty of his movement. But it tells you nothing about the story beyond "Sonic goes to a chained tiny planet". It doesn't set up Metal or Amy (and it's very hard to feel anything when she's kidnapped) or time travel. You can't even tell if Little Planet is in danger. Maybe it was always chained and metallic?

10 hours ago, Wraith said:

The Sonic Adventure games barely earn their Kaiju battle finales as is

Okay, I'll bite: how could it do a better job?

Evil scientist throws Emeralds into a monster and it grows. Obviously, all 7 will be something terrible.

We see flashbacks to the echidna race. Race which is now gone, their temples are ruins. Something big whipped them out.

The game fakes you out by pretending you prevented the Perfect Chaos.

And finally, you see the destruction of Station Square before perfect chaos emerges.

I say that's pretty good for the 1998 game. Also, when I was a kid I didn't speak English and still followed the story. So chew on that "Classic Superior Wordless Storytelling".

I'd argue that the only mistake was showing us Perfect Chaos in the intro cutscene (rather than hiding it till finally), but on the other hand, it looks absolutely beautiful to this day and it would be a shame not to do it.

[Salamander]

12 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Care to elaborate? I'm genuinely curious.

I don't really think a lot of what you describe as needing explanation, or requiring reference to the manual, is all that vague.  The classic style of storytelling emphasises "show, don't tell", and much of what it shows is self-explanatory.  Knuckles emerges from the ground and punches the Super out of Sonic before collecting the Chaos Emeralds - we infer that he is a worthy antagonist.  Knuckles uses the machinery of the island to lay traps - he is well-versed in the island's secrets and plainly an inhabitant.  He does nothing to oppose Eggman but everything to oppose Sonic - plainly the two enemies are allies.  The Hidden Palace event makes plain that there has been a deception and a betrayal.  It's all right there on-screen, no manuals needed.  By and large, I think the same applies to Superstars.  What more needs explaining about Trip or her transformation than what we see?  The game just gets a bit shaky towards the end with matters relating to the dark dragon, though anyone who's been paying attention in forensic detail can get the gist.  It just shouldn't have required that level of attention to detail.

(I will say that I do think that the prologue animation and comic should have been included in the game.  They exist, so why not?)

1 hour ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

And I'm split about CD. Yes, if you explore you can see a good and bad future (stakes) or Metal Sonic hologram (rival tension). However, the game fails to tell you how to do that. Who plays Sonic games with exploration in mind? [emphasis mine]

This seems a little presumptuous considering how early in the series CD came along.  I would contend that what Sonic really was hadn't been codified yet - and still wouldn't be, considering that S3&K also goes in a quite exploratory, show-don't-tell direction.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Salamander said:

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Who plays Sonic games with exploration in mind?

This seems a little presumptuous considering how early in the series CD came along.  I would contend that what Sonic really was hadn't been codified yet - and still wouldn't be, considering that S3&K also goes in a quite exploratory, show-don't-tell direction.

Fair point, but remember my next sentence.

5 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Most people play 2D all platformers with a "keep going right" mentality.

An average gamer will play Sonic CD by just running forward. With a bit of luck, they can figure out how time travel works (or at least on the next play through), but without external guidance what would motivate them to explore very confusing layout in hopes of finding machines that the game never shows to you?

Also Sonic isn't exactly built for exploration. His powers are moving fast or faster. Sure it can be done (Mania showed it), but Mania story doesn't rely on you finding Special Stages. And they are still much easier to find than Robot Generators.

1 hour ago, Salamander said:

I don't really think a lot of what you describe as needing explanation, or requiring reference to the manual, is all that vague.  The classic style of storytelling emphasises "show, don't tell", and much of what it shows is self-explanatory.  Knuckles (...)

Hmmm, I'm not convinced.

We can't check, not without a time machine, but I'm guessing most of the kids playing Sonic 3 in the 90s had a manual and read it. That's how the game was expected to be consumed.

Like, how do we know Knuckles is the guardian of the island, not just some merc hired by Eggman (and later betrayed for his incompetence to stop Sonic)? Okay, he presses a lot of switches, but Island is already covered in Eggman's stuff. Fang could do so as well.

It could been revealed naturally if Hidden Palace had echidna statues or murals, but unless I'm forgetting something, it doesn't.

Edited January 20 by MetalSkulkBane

[Shiny Gems]

7 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I don't think it's a matter of the Classic style being outdated or in need of better writers. I think it's a matter of them not doing enough showing with their storytelling.

Now, I haven't play Superstars, so I can't really judge anything on that front. But I have played Mania and Mania Plus, and let me tell you that prior to Plus there was a distinct lack of showing when it comes to certain transition between levels or visuals to explain the story until Plus came in to fill them gaps.

And mind you, I'm the person who would prefer dialogue in stories, but S3&K is my all time favorite Sonic game and it does a remarkable job in at least showing you its story. It might also be a case of nostalgia and looking back on a game that is over 20 years old, but this actually highlights a point that I think later entries trying to capture its storytelling style aren't doing well--Sonic 3&K was made on far limited hardware compared to the modern tech that we play Mania and Superstars on. Mania and Superstars should have far less limitations on how to show its scenes and transitions even if you going to eschew on the dialogue between the characters. They should be more capable of showing things to the player in its scenes alone to give players an idea on what is actually going on, but there are noticable gaps that lead to topics like this.

For example, I'm hearing of a "Dark Dragon" in Superstars that seems to come out of nowhere with little hints barring the early trailer of Trip, Nack, and Eggman venturing through the ruins where they see a mural of it. Now, again, I haven't played Superstars, so I'm only going on hearsay, but you could have moments of scenery showing more hints of the dragon that would be encountered in the game. In Mania before Plus came in, there should've been better transitions between certain levels (it's been a while since I played it, so I can't remember specifically where the gaps were here when it wasn't the Phantom Ruby's doing). We could excuse gaps like this in S3&K in the past (come to think of it, the only gap in that game is really Sonic's transition from the Death Egg to the Doomsday Zone while every level has at least an explainable transition from one zone to another), but today's games have more room to show more scenes to hint or at least visually detail what may occur later on that they're not really doing well in showing.

So, if I were to make an observation, it's that those implementing the classic style of storytelling need to stop being lazy about showing. It's either an effort thing or a budget thing if you ask me, because otherwise you really wouldn't have this problem.

Yeah, honestly, I am going to have to admit; when I said "better writers", I actually meant something like the "enough showing" thing you mentioned. With that, I might have used the wrong words here, but yeah, that "showing with their storytelling" is something I probably was trying to say here.

[The Swordsman]

Having seen all of Superstars' content myself, I think there is a misconception. Ivo's goal isn't to use the bigger mobinis (that was just a bonus for him) or did he have a plot in mind similar to Sonic 3&K, instead it was to force Trip to help him and Fang unleash the Black Dragon her tribe had kept sealed so he could use it to rule the world. (The Black Dragon itself is also a member of Trip's tribe that somehow is locked into dragon form) Its why this game is placed before Sonic Adventure as it marks a transition in Eggman's tactics.

[MetalSkulkBane]

17 minutes ago, The Swordsman said:

Having seen all of Superstars' content myself, I think there is a misconception. Ivo's goal isn't to use the bigger mobinis (that was just a bonus for him) or did he have a plot in mind similar to Sonic 3&K, instead it was to force Trip to help him and Fang unleash the Black Dragon her tribe had kept sealed so he could use it to rule the world. (The Black Dragon itself is also a member of Trip's tribe that somehow is locked into dragon form) Its why this game is placed before Sonic Adventure as it marks a transition in Eggman's tactics.

The fact that there is a misconception highlights how poorly the story is told.

I mean, yes I know that was his goal. But it's so easy to forget. Chaos was unleashed early and kept growing. Deadly Six are in the game from the start. Dark Gaia has his monsters throughout the whole story before his grand appearance. There usually is SOMETHING to latch on to.

What does Red Eyes Black Dragon have? Mural and silly drawing, and then he just pops out with zero explanation or build-up.

[StaticMania]

That's simple...

The few cutscenes the game has doesn't tell you anything about Eggman's plan.

The cutscenes are purely focused on Trip and Fang.

Eggman doesn't even seem like he should be there.

---

Using the giant flickies to power his mini-bosses is a neat bit of contextual wordless story telling, but it doesn't matter to his end goal.

The custom robot that Eggman uses is the only time the levels tell you anything of Eggman's plan...but all that does is build up to a single boss.

There being other giant animals like the snake and the octopus that Trip is friends with would be nice, but they're just non-sequitrs...the ceph does nothing.

[Salamander]

22 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

An average gamer will play Sonic CD by just running forward. With a bit of luck, they can figure out how time travel works (or at least on the next play through), but without external guidance what would motivate them to explore very confusing layout in hopes of finding machines that the game never shows to you?

Also Sonic isn't exactly built for exploration. His powers are moving fast or faster. Sure it can be done (Mania showed it), but Mania story doesn't rely on you finding Special Stages. And they are still much easier to find than Robot Generators.

I think it also earns mention that CD is a product of an age where games expected you to replay them over and over.  I think people will naturally discover alternative routes and deepen their understanding of the game's world in that fashion.  I don't argue that CD is necessarily the best at it, mind, but I have fond memories of seeking out new routes and hidden areas in that game.  I have more I could say here about the spirit of Sonic as a series, but it's quite subjective and frankly not pertinent to the topic at hand.

22 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Hmmm, I'm not convinced.

We can't check, not without a time machine, but I'm guessing most of the kids playing Sonic 3 in the 90s had a manual and read it. That's how the game was expected to be consumed.

Like, how do we know Knuckles is the guardian of the island, not just some merc hired by Eggman (and later betrayed for his incompetence to stop Sonic)? Okay, he presses a lot of switches, but Island is already covered in Eggman's stuff. Fang could do so as well.

It could been revealed naturally if Hidden Palace had echidna statues or murals, but unless I'm forgetting something, it doesn't.

The manual point is a fair and a true one, though I would still argue that you don't need it.  Knuckles being specifically the guardian of the island, the last echidna etc., fair enough I would agree isn't what you might call clear - though I think the betrayal in Hidden Palace does plainly show a protective instinct towards the island and its treasures on Knuckles' part - but I also wouldn't say details like that are necessary to understand the plot.

I like your idea for echidna statues and murals in Hidden Palace.  Regardless of whether or not such details are there, the fact that they could naturally be there and indicate something about Knuckles's kind is one of the strengths of the visual style of storytelling in the classic games.  I consider the classics to be fine as they are, but I also believe it's worth thinking creatively about ways we could enhance what they do, without needing to add words or lengthy cutscenes.

[batson]

The idea that of a video game featuring characters, a story and cutscenes yet not featuring dialogue is outdated. Pretty much the only reason it's ever been done these days is because it's "retro". Sonic Superstars did it because the classic games did it. But I don't see any actual benefit to doing it nowadays, unless there is a very specific artistic vision behind it. Worldess media can be amazing after all (Disney's Fantasia is one of my favorite animated movies, and don't we all love Mr Bean?). But when games do it it's usually only done for shallow retro points.

But honestly, one thing that is even worse are games that do feature dialogue but don't feature voice acting (instead only text). In these cases you can't even pretend that there is an idea that the lack of dialgue is a means of instead relying only on visual storytelling. I can fully understand of course that some games don't fature voice acting due to budget restraints, and I can also forgive when developers of games that are extremely dialgue heavy (such as RPG's) dont want to spend an absurd amount of time on doing voice recordings for the thousands of written lines in the game. But it really bugs me when something like a Legend of Zelda game deliberately choose to not feature any voice acting at all (except for like grunts and maybe short phrases and stuff), like not even during the relatively small amount of cinematic cutscenes. "But that's how we used to do it". Yeah and movies used to be silent but then sound technology came along in the late 1920's and we've usually made movies with sound ever since.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 hours ago, batson said:

The idea that of a video game featuring characters, a story and cutscenes yet not featuring dialogue is outdated.

Strange timeline I'm in when I'm hearing people say this just now when decades ago "Sonic doesn't need a story" and "Sonic never talked" were epithets against that very idea.

Even stranger when I'm suggesting ideas to make the lack of dialogue work, too. (I still favor dialogue tho)

Edited January 21 by CrownSlayer’s Shadow

[The Swordsman]

1 hour ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Strange timeline I'm in when I'm hearing people say this just now when decades ago "Sonic doesn't need a story" and "Sonic never talked" were epithets against that very idea.

Even stranger when I'm suggesting ideas to make the lack of dialogue work, too. (I still favor dialogue tho)

I chalk the earlier attitude up to a combination of the old Western branch of SEGA changing the manuals, 06's failure and the vitriol it caused while fairly fresh and the inane Adventure hate fad that was started after 06 thanks to rise of YouTube critics. (I think Roger also did a Sonic Dissected on the subject) As that attitude didn't really exist in the Classic or Adventure Eras from what I recall. Thankfully I discovered the manual translations early on and knew both of those claims were false. (Heck CD has Sonic's first ever voiced lines) Now of days that information is far more easily available among the newer fans and they grew up with so called "Dark" Era, IDW comics and even the Meta Era is there for comparison.

[MetalSkulkBane]

If a game wants basic story that doesn't interrupt gameplay, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with keeping things simple. I think all you need is 1 good cinematic at start and 1 at the end.

Sonic Superstarts problem is that story is kinda large. Flynn mention he knows things about Trip that game doesn't states (at least not clearly), so they wrote far to complex narrative and then didn't knew how to tell it.

 

And I agree that not using dialogue is limiting yourself for no reason. Unless:
1) You're going all "artsy" ala Jorney or Ico
2) You don't trust your writing skills at all and "leave for player imagination to fill the blanks" as defense
3) Your story really is that simple

[Salamander]

22 hours ago, batson said:

But honestly, one thing that is even worse are games that do feature dialogue but don't feature voice acting (instead only text).

Lately, when playing games with voice acting, I've been lowering it to the minimum volume or turning it off entirely where the game will let me.  I've found that I enjoy the games a lot more this way; in fact, I often forget that they ever had voice acting at all.