Would any of you like "easy to break" levels to be made in official Sonic games?

[Shiny Gems]

Well, let me put it this way; by "easy to break", I mean taking shortcuts, cutting through and around large areas of the level and exploiting abilities and (maybe) the game's physics to skip areas of the level that you might play through in Sonic games. Now, I do think some Sonic fan games, to say the least, allow for this. Now, here is an example of what I am talking about in the form of a video of a level from an upcoming indie game called Rollin' Rascal.

Questionable design of the character being played as aside, in this video, the player uses the playable character's abilities to skip some of the level and exploits the level design to take shortcuts instead of going the whole, long way through the level. This is all in comparison to main, official Sonic games, which have Sonic and other characters stay on track most of the time when going through levels (though there are some exceptions, and moments where areas of levels can be skipped). It seems Sonic Team wants the player to stay on track in levels of Sonic games they make rather than to exploit or skip areas of levels.

Personally, I like staying on track, or on the main path, of levels of Sonic games. I am not opposed to the contrary, but I have never been a fan or easy-to-break level design, as I do kind of find it unfair to less skilled players who can't get the best time compared to those who are more skilled to take advantage of the level design; not because it makes getting the best time harder, but because it might be more difficult for less skilled players to replicate the actions of the more skilled players. That is just my point of view, though, and I am more used to sticking to the main path and on track in Sonic games than breaking level design.

So, with that out of the way, what would you all like more? Being able to break levels in official Sonic games by exploiting them or skipping areas in them or just staying on the same path and levels being made so you mainly do so?

[Diogenes]

I think sometimes fangame/spiritual successor game designers can get a bit drunk on the power and freedom that they can design into their own games. It's understandable, given how restrictive 3D Sonic games have become, and there's obvious fun in going super fast and getting huge air, and in seeing the levels in a new way and finding the secret expert paths the devs included or surpassing their expectations entirely. But focusing too much on those moments, making them too common and too easy, would probably end up hurting the game. If you're expecting players to launch themselves past most of your level design, are you really going to spend the time designing and polishing interesting sequences there? If you don't, more casual players aren't going to have a great time with it, likely getting bored of the subpar gameplay and never advancing to the higher-level stuff. If you do, a lot of that effort might be wasted in the eyes of your hardcore audience, who might've rather had more levels designed for these advanced techniques. Or, they could just get bored of the game if it ends up being too shallow, reducing a lot of the gameplay to using the same few tricks to launch yourself through empty space.

So it's not bad for some shortcuts like these to exist, but I think they should be rare. Maybe to the point of not being deliberately included (because if it's possible, a dedicated playerbase will find it it places you didn't intend). I'd rather see games like these try to keep their high-level gameplay within the level boundaries, where it can grow more naturally from casual play and try to keep all aspects of the game relevant.

[JezMM]

Yeah, whenever I watch videos like this, I'm like... that's cool but I don't really want to play a platformer where I just do 5 really big jumps and that's the level.  This also seems a lot more possible in wide open air floating obstacle course type stage design like this, and Frontiers' Cyberspace and Dream Team's level design reminded me that it's not really my bag.  I know it's expensive to produce and asking a lot, but I really want my Sonic games to have stages like SA2, Unleashed and Generations which feel like I'm conquering a real location (even if it is all smoke and mirrors that get revealed when players who DO break out of the boundaries and do stuff like in the video above).

Like Diogenes, I don't feel like stages should be too heavily designed around this sort of thing, and it definitely shouldn't be too easy/obvious to do that players end up intentionally avoiding taking the path of least resistance in order to have a more substantial experience.  Heck, some Sonic games are guilty of this already - Sonic Forces was a ridiculously easy game to take the fastest route on.  Even a stage as last as Mortar Canyon has one big where there's a pit full of platforming and alternate routes (not good platforming but... platforming) but there's a launch ramp in front of you thae takes you right over.  You have to intentionally ignore it to take the slower, more interesting (again... barely more interesting) route.  Hate that stuff.

[Knight Terror]

I can't think of any levels off the top of my head, but I believe these already exist in some games.

(Edit; speed highway has some insane short cuts and parts where adventure's op spindash can skip parts... Actually in general, adventures levels can be broken a lot.)

Edited December 16, 2023 by Knight Terror

[Palas]

You identify a good level not by watching someone excel at it but by watching someone struggle with it.

That's all that needs to be said.

[StaticMania]

For a Sonic game...I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

But the ease in which someone can simply fly through a level will make watching anything pretty boring, let alone playing such a level.

[Palas]

The point isn't in struggling itself but in seeing what happens as someone struggles. Players that can break levels will be few and far between, and will almost necessarily put conscious effort in becoming that good. They're outliers by definition. Buy if an inexperienced player still gets value out of the stage and feels encouraged to get better, and that leads to advanced plays that break the level, then it's much closer to being a good level. Building levels with speedrunning in mind without accounting for how struggling players will feel basically sucks.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Palas

[Iko]

As usual, it all depends on balance: occasionaly being able to skip a part of a level (especially if by skills) can feel good, though if the entire level (or game) is all about finding a ramp and flying over everything, then it's bad game design.

Green Hill Zone Act 1 does have its "fly over everything" moment too, by design.

[Palas]

36 minutes ago, Iko said:

Green Hill Zone Act 1 does have its "fly over everything" moment too, by design.

While this is true and it's one of the most iconic moments in the franchise (!), I think it's worth noting this a) is rare in the game b) feels like a transgression. I can't stress enough how much of Sonic relies on making you feel like you did something amazing, that you weren't supposed to. If a game is designed towards these kinds of moments, it won't be bad game design (I don't think such a thing exists), but it will make flying over everything convey more a feeling of figuring out a puzzle than a sense of wonder about what how fast you can be as a blue hedgehog.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Palas