Is It Wrong To Think The Classic Characters Aren't As Interesting as The Modern Ones?

[SticksSuperFan14]

I watched the new Sonic Superstars short recently, and while it was fun and harmless, it got me thinking about how surface-level the classic cast tends to be in comparison to the modern cast.  And I understand that it worked this way back in the '90's because the series wasn't really that lore/character-driven (like sure there was world-building, but they wouldn't really delve into what it all meant until later), but the modern series evolved beyond that simplicity, and I wish the classic series would kinda do the same. Like because they insist on these characters only being silent in most classic media, we only really see their basic character traits and not really get as much insight into who they are as people as, say, Shadow. Like who are Mighty, Ray, and Fang really? At least with the main 4 and Eggman, we see who they will become, but we don't get that with the others cuz they're trapped in the old days. Plus, this situation leaves them without voice actors, as while they speak in the IDW comics, comics by their very nature don't have audio, and we could speculate all day about what they could sound like, but I would love to hear definitive versions of their voices, ones I can hear in my head when reading/watching other things and think, "Yep, that's them."

[Sega DogTagz]

Its not wrong thing to think per se. The Modern variants obviously invest more into the characters backstories, and the conflicts they face over the course of the games in a way that simply wasn't a focus during the classic days.

 

It is wrong to make a blanket assumption that the classic characters can't maintain the same depth if given the chance however. A simple look at modern variants of classic characters confirms than many of the same, deeper qualities were already present in the classic days.

Knuckles is an awesome example of this. Modern Knux has to showcase flexibility. On top of being the bruiser of the group, he has to showcase naivete due to a life of growing up alone. He has to showcase knowledge of the ancient world through his linage and his treasure hunting. He has to show his bond and rivalry with Sonic and he has to juggle all of that with his duty bound nature. That's a lot to balance. But if you look back to Sonic 3&K - all of that is actually in there too. With no words and only 5 second stage transition cut scenes to its name, we see all those traits in full display. From a character standpoint, Classic Knux is every bit as interesting and deep as his modern counterpart. He doesn't need a voice, he doesn't need a paragraph of exposition. He can shed the surface level presentation and display any trait modern Knuckles can.

 

The same is true for any character that received significant focus. All of Tails traits shine through in a similar fashion. Over the course of all the classic games We see his desire to prove himself. We see the vulnerabilities he has of being the little brother. We see the bravery overcome the fear in the 11th hour. We see mechanic, the smarts the prowess. Its all there. All the things that make Modern Tails a deep character can also be told in the classic sense of the word.

 

 

Its more to do with how each of the characters is handled, rather than a limitation of the media. All it takes is a two second animation of Amy stopping to pet a flicky to show her kind nature. All it takes is a scene of Ray ducking behind Mighty to establish that one looks to the other for support.

Even in the animation we just got, there is plenty of depth to each of the characters. Tails appears unsure of himself during the fight. Sonic takes the time to engage and support each of his friends before they take on the threat. Sonic and Tails display impeccable teamwork and Tails highlights his techy side. In just that short fight, you can pull a lot of depth from each of the cast.

Even characters making their "debut" have some depth. You can't watch that and not come away with a clean idea of the layers to Fangs' persona. He's so full of himself, lazy and completely oblivious to anything that doesn't concern him. He's short shortsighted but crafty. He's not just mook with a popgun, he's a full blown character. I don't think I need to even point out how the short highlights several moments that show Trip is more than she appears as well.

 

At the end of the day, a picture is worth a thousand words. They can be just as interesting, even without the dependence on storytelling methods that the modern cast has.

 

[GX -The Spindash-]

I mean, to speak to the letter of the topic, no, it's not inherently wrong, but I don't necessarily agree with it.

Personally, I don't think that the modern characters are that much more interesting. They largely fall into broad tropes, and in some games, barely do even that. If you asked me to describe what makes Sonic tick in Sonic Adventure 2, I would struggle to describe him beyond "He's a guy who likes to adventure and fights evil," which is accurate, but not especially interesting. I've long felt that there's a duality between "Sonic" and "The Sonic," where Sonic is a character who can feel things and express things and experience consequences of his actions (Sonic Lost World, Sonic Boom, Paramount Sonic), and "The Sonic" is a character that others encounter as a beacon to teach them about adventure and self confidence and hope etc... (Secret Rings, Forces, IDW).

Quite honestly, going by the animation today, the characters as they're portrayed show a solid amount of characterization crammed into 5 minutes without dialog. Eggman is easily annoyed, childish, but dedicated to his schemes. Fang is self-aggrandizing and occasionally resourceful, though cocky and not especially interested in sharing a spotlight. Trip (as explicitly stated prior) is clumsy, but she's also very compassionate about the plants and animals on her island, and while her efforts don't seem to be appreciated by her odd companions, she still wants approval.

I don't expect these portrayals to come across quite as strong in the game proper, because the story and animation ain't gonna be managed by Stanley and Hess, but the distinction is that this line of classic Sonic is more innocent and more timeless. It doesn't emphasize massive, world ending stakes where demons from the future want to awaken lava creatures because it's designed to be the more whimsical branch of Sonic.

[Phoenix]

I just never saw a difference. I didn't read Genesis Sonic as this cute Mario like child. He wagged his finger at you, all his commercials were about how cool he was.

Genesis' interpretation of him being a fundamentally different character from modern Sonic has always been odd to me.

[LongcrierCat]

It's funny in Classic Sonic starring games that aren't Generations or Forces, he genuinely has the edge he had in the 90s, but when it came to Sonic Team's games with Classic Sonic in the 2010s, he's very Mickey Mouse instead of Felix the Cat. Sonic Mania Adventures has a lot of that Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog antics energy mixed with the OVA that is just so delicious.

1 hour ago, Phoenix said:

I just never saw a difference. I didn't read Genesis Sonic as this cute Mario like child. He wagged his finger at you, all his commercials were about how cool he was.

Genesis' interpretation of him being a fundamentally different character from modern Sonic has always been odd to me.

Yeah, I mean, the Pagoda West Team understands Sonic's core attitude, while Sega upper management seemed to forget why people liked Sonic in the first place.

He wasn't this stereotype of cool. He was cool because he'd taunt the bad guys, play pranks on them, give them a bit of a tussle, and be snarky but still loving with his friends and be an overall life of the party. But he can also be temperamental if you ruin his or others good time.

His snark towards baddies and his care for his friends are very much like Spider-Man like that.

He's not a jaded asshole nor is he a squeaky clean goody two shoes.

He's just a hedgehog with a radical attitude who takes care of his friends and beats the guys who're here to crash a good time.

And great character writing like Ian Flynn's as shown in Frontiers and now Superstars' short and cutscenes shows that even with or without voiced lines, good character shines in how you write how they act and respond to any given situation.

And that's beautifully complex in subtlety and simple on the surface at the same time.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Knuckles is an awesome example of this. Modern Knux has to showcase flexibility. On top of being the bruiser of the group, he has to showcase naivete due to a life of growing up alone. He has to showcase knowledge of the ancient world through his linage and his treasure hunting. He has to show his bond and rivalry with Sonic and he has to juggle all of that with his duty bound nature. That's a lot to balance. But if you look back to Sonic 3&K - all of that is actually in there too. With no words and only 5 second stage transition cut scenes to its name, we see all those traits in full display. From a character standpoint, Classic Knux is every bit as interesting and deep as his modern counterpart. He doesn't need a voice, he doesn't need a paragraph of exposition. He can shed the surface level presentation and display any trait modern Knuckles can.

This is a great post but I want to highlight this paragraph particularly because I'm genuinely proud of it. I'm glad we're finally over the idea of treating Knux as just being some dumb gullible idiot and are now respecting his life spent in isolation surrounded by the remnants of an older family he once had that connects him to his spiritual Native American roots. And I'm glad we're recognizing that that part of Knuckles' story has been there since Day One finally.

And I do mean Native American roots. He is a first Nations person based on peoples from the Americas. He lives on Angel Island, a very real place in California.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miwok

His moon crescent necklace is based on a Mi'wok Abalone Necklace.

How did this fandom go so long making fun of Knuckles instead of delving into his background?

He's not gullible because he's dumb, he was genuinely just naive and a colonizer who wanted to take over the world came to his island to get his peoples' magical cultural power and convinced him that the other dudes were actually the baddies while said colonizer bombed his forest down to find said power.

(Robotnik is played up too goofy compared to how much of a dick he really is, but he did get better after a long time of straight up character flanderization from Pontac and Graff and we're finally seeing character development in Frontiers that genuinely feels like character development from Sonic Adventure 2, finally. Now I just want them to explore GUN as the major bad guys in the big picture now.)

Making jokes like that at a guy heavily implied to be a Black First Nations person is kind of... not a great look, to be completely honest.

But anyhow, I'm just glad to have great character, personality, and writing back to the series after the 2010s best writing was Sonic Boom and the comic books while the Sonic Games played like cheeky tongue in cheek SNL skits about the quality of the series.

[Sean]

The modern games explore characters' personalities and backstories more than any classic game has. Even relatively deep, interesting stuff like the history behind the islands that Sonic and Tails visit throughout the trilogy is regulated to manuals. Honestly if completely ignoring supplemental material and alternate media such as the comics, I wouldn't have found Knuckles to be nearly as interesting in S3K as he was in SA1.

[LongcrierCat]

13 minutes ago, Sean said:

The modern games explore characters' personalities and backstories more than any classic game has. Even relatively deep, interesting stuff like the history behind the islands that Sonic and Tails visit throughout the trilogy is regulated to manuals. Honestly if completely ignoring supplemental material and alternate media such as the comics, I wouldn't have found Knuckles to be nearly as interesting in S3K as he was in SA1.

I see your point, but the levels themselves tell a story as well.

They weren't just designed for the sake of having a level trope in mind, but were in service to the stories they told about these games and these Aesop Fable Funny Animals.

All of Sonic 3 is talking about the deep culture of Angel Island while Carnival Night Zone, Launch Base Zone, Flying Battery, Lava Reef Act 2 with the glaring Death Egg from the surface staring Underground, the Death Egg Zone itself all talk about the ways Non Native Peoples have colonized, profited off the land, and sought to build upon this Native Land that has murals, underground water cities, beautiful mountains, Pyramids in the desert in the middle of the Island haunted by the ancestors and animals you didn't get to save in time.

All of the level design of Sonic 3 is in service to its storyline as well as to fun game design and then there's the fun to watch cutscenes further fleshing out the story.

Sonic 3 is legit one of the best games of the 90s for its overall game design and story.

And even still Sonic 1 and 2 while not being this pinnacle solidified in 3 do also have this same kind of environmental level based storytelling going on. Sonic 1, Sonic goes from Green Hills to Ancient Lava Grounds, to an Industrial Field, to an Underground Water Temple, to a City Highway leading to the source of Industry and once you beat Scrap Brain's 2nd Act you find out he built his city on said Underground Native Water Temple and it is polluted with his sludge.

This is a lot more thought put into level design than your average Mario game.

[Mauro Fonseca]

21 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

And I do mean Native American roots. He is a first Nations person based on peoples from the Americas. He lives on Angel Island, a very real place in California.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miwok

His moon crescent necklace is based on a Mi'wok Abalone Necklace.

... is it?

 

I mean, I don't wanna tell you not to interpret things this way; and I do think Knuckles' relation to the Master Emerald and his people definitely should use elements of diaspora writing etc. But from what we know, he has the swoop in the chest kinda based on an Asian Bear, and because it forms a moon shape vs Sonic's round belly being a sun; it got misinterpreted into a metal necklace in the UK; and otherwise if anything game depictions of the echidna cultures point to Mesoamerica, not North America. Pachacamac was a city of a kinda forgotten people and then taken over by the Inca; Tikal is a Mayan city.

Yes, he lives Angel Island, but I think the meaning there is simpler- that's near San Francisco, where the Japanese devs were located during development of S3K. San Diego also has Emerald Hills, etc. Angel Island is shown with Egyptian ruins etc- there wasn't a particular care for a specific location, it's just a cool name they liked.

Again, emphasising I don't want to contradict your headcanon here; if you want to read the Echidnas more towards the native American reading than mesoamerican, that's fine. Just you stated it so factually I really feel the need to ask if you've a source for this, because if so it's something I'd like to keep in mind forwards, that there's some source out there that there's more to this than Asian Bear chest symbols and Incan cities.

[LongcrierCat]

I'm glad you asked. My source is more from research of the Native Americans and Meso-Americans and First Nation Peoples of the World.

While yes, Knux has the Asian Bear marking, it's still meant to be a cultural identifier and that in most Japanese Anime and Media Productions, they care intensely for culture in their storytelling and that while it was talked about that they did lots of travel and research for Sonic Adventure's themes of the Meso American Peoples and City of Pachacamac and its deities, I want to go on a limb and say this was not the first time they did that research and that Sonic 3 is the first one.

There's a lot of Shrine Maiden storytelling with Tikal for instance which connects the Meso American diaspora with the Japanese Diaspora of Shinto and O-Inari culture temple care and that I say that this link of connecting with Meso and Native Americans through the shared cultural language of the faiths and their beliefs of the Supernatural and Yokai with Japanese cultures have been there in Sonic since near the beginning of the series and that Totems and Sonic being born on Christmas Island near Australia leans towards a lot of the culture of these stories having an Aboriginal kind of leaning towards their story beats.

Meso American and Native American diaspora share a lot in common despite their differences as well with a lot of people from North, Middle, and South America traveling back and forth through their histories.

[Phoenix]

I always read the echidnas as Maya. One of them is called Tikal, they're a jungle civilisation, they have pyramids, etc.

[LongcrierCat]

3 minutes ago, Phoenix said:

I always read the echidnas as Maya. One of them is called Tikal, they're a jungle civilisation, they have pyramids, etc.

You'd be surprised by the pyramid structures you'd find that were here in North America before colonization.

Look into the Mississippian Cultures and the Mississippian Mounds.

I'm Cherokee, and I learned this from wanting to know where my people came from then found out we had a city that was basically the original Mobotropolis.

[Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

You'd be surprised by the pyramid structures you'd find that were here in North America before colonization.

Look into the Mississippian Cultures and the Mississippian Mounds.

I'm Cherokee, and I learned this from wanting to know where my people came from then found out we had a city that was basically the original Mobotropolis.

I didn't know that, that's cool! I do think, however, that the Maya were the specific inspiration for at least some of the echidnas in SA1. The name Tikal itself is a pretty strong piece of evidence there, and so is the climate Angel Island seemed to be. And the idea of grand prophecies is a popular trope about the Maya.

[ZinogreVolt]

Modern games are focused on story while the Classics aren't, so that's a perfectly normal conclusion to arrive at.

[Scritch the Cat]

As stated, even in the modern games most characters are still fairly basic archetypes but to me that has never really mattered much because character depth isn't usually what they're used for; the fun is in seeing them interact with each other and react to weird scenarios thrown their way.  As to that being more interesting, I think dialogue makes a big difference, and I was prepared to say that not having dialogue ruled out stories of cartoon animals being any more than slapstick comedy, but then I remembered obvious exceptions, like Fantasia--which okay, is partially slapstick comedy but there are plenty moments when it's taking itself seriously, too.

The thing is, I think SEGA is intentionally not trying to make Classic Sonic, as it exists now, any more than lighthearted slapstick comedy.  Perhaps establishing a clear split between Classic and Modern Sonic is something they've exploited to take each to a fairly opposite extreme, for better or worse. (Worse, in my opinion.)

14 hours ago, Phoenix said:

I didn't know that, that's cool! I do think, however, that the Maya were the specific inspiration for at least some of the echidnas in SA1. The name Tikal itself is a pretty strong piece of evidence there, and so is the climate Angel Island seemed to be. And the idea of grand prophecies is a popular trope about the Maya.

I believe that most of their stated inspiration for Sonic Adventure was Cancun and the vicinity.

[Lytan]

I feel similar. Personally I think the official split between Classic and Modern is to blame. I don't like how Classic Sonic is supposed to be a different character now instead of just "a younger Sonic" or "a different model used for 2D games". I love Sonic Mania and I'm excited for Superstars, but they feel very "safe". I won't go too deep into that, though, as I'm aware there's a whole other thread about the "sanitisation" of Classic Sonic.

In my opinion, what's missing from the modern "Classic Sonic" games is that original Sonic attitude.

Sure, the classics had bright colours, awesome music, and fun gameplay, just like the current 2D games, but they weren't constantly upbeat like modern iteration of Classic Sonic would have you believe. They may not have had the same depth as later games but we still got great story moments like the betrayal scene in S3&K that clearly showed Sonic, Knuckles, and Robotnik's personalities through the use of sprite art. I didn't play the classics until after the Adventure games, but even still, I remember being impressed by the depth of storytelling. Every one of Sonic's animations in the classics oozes his cool, impatient personality, while Classic Sonic is more "cutesy" and childlike. He just doesn't feel like Sonic to me. At least, not the same Sonic I see in the actual classic titles, who I can easily see growing up to become Modern Sonic. He feels more like a spin-off.

For the 2D games, I don't think it's a glaring issue for the characters to be more simplified than in the modern games. Something like Sonic Superstars isn't trying to be an ambitious next step for the series in the same way as Sonic Frontiers, and for all my criticisms I do enjoy the modern 2D games. I just wish they hadn't simplified the characters quite so much.

(I've never understood the "no voice acting" thing either. Sonic CD and the 90s TV shows had voice acting - the characters spoke, just not in the games (except that one line in CD) because of hardware limitations. That's a whole other discussion, though.)