IDW Sonic Slowed Since Issue #33?

[Borvoc]

In a recent Bumblekast, someone wrote in asking for Ian to comment on the opinion that IDW’s Sonic comic has meandered a bit and seemed to lack direction since Ian’s solo run on the book ended with Evan Stanley’s first writing credit for issue #33. Since then, the two have tag-teamed the writing as they switch back and forth between arcs, but I’ll admit that contrary to the listener’s question, I haven’t noticed much of a negative affect to pacing aside from some issues with art looking rushed back during COVID when Evan was being forced to write and illustrate issue after issue in a row, which is completely understandable.

Ian, of course, refused to comment, out of professionalism and the idea that the Internet would take whatever he said on the topic, good or bad, and misconstrue it to the nth degree, which is completely fair, but I thought it would be interesting to bounce the question around with a few fellow fans and see what you all think. Has the comic slowed or meandered since issue #33, and if so, in what specific ways have you noticed this? On the other hand, what has Evan brought to the table that you’ve enjoyed? Keep in mind that I’m not trying to encourage personal attacks against either of the writers—just an analysis of their styles.

[Danj86]

I don't know. I personally still can't decide if the comic is worth my time so I doubt I'm qualified to understand why some think the comic has been lacking in someway.

I...could share a theory at least. Since #33 was singled out, that would mark the end of the Zombot arc and when you consider the threat level that has followed, nothing has ever reached that scale in the comic since. As in, a global threat. Every arc since has been smaller, even the ones with heavier tones are only personal in scale and while they would no doubt easily be a global threat at some point, the comic wasn't going for that angle so it's not really pushed to the forefront.

Some small scale stories can be dull to others so that could be why. But that's just my wild assumption.

Some might ask why I bothered to say anything when I couldn't even bring my own opinion to the discussion. To them I say, "Yeah. But I had a thought worth sharing, which is rare these days."

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I'd say it's more that we haven't had a "big" story arc since zombots, one with a clear beginning, middle and end. Belle wasn't exactly an open-and-shut case, neither are Surge and Kit, and Starline didn't really feel like he was acting as an arc villain in himself up until his death, since you knew Surge and Kit were gonna stick around and split off from him, it was more that he was an instigator for other things.

Nothing here has really been bad, so much as none of it has felt self-contained. World Tour is an arc, Tossed in Space is an arc, Eggman Empire and Iron Dominion and Shattered World are arcs. The Neo Metal story is an arc, Metal Virus is an arc. Is everything starting from that Chao race to now an arc? Is Sonic vs. Surge an end to that arc when her story keeps moving for the next several issues? Is that even an arc that's over? Is Urban Warfare the end to that arc? If it's a different arc, where did it specifically start?

It's too much intermixing. I think they need to focus on a set of a few characters at a time and tell shorter stories with buildups and payoffs. At least, assuming that everything we've had for the past few years is not part of some buildup to a giant super-arc that proves it was all necessary setup.

[Leebo4]

Prefer it this way as the zombots story while tense did overstay it’s welcome a bit especially with the circumstances that happened in real life to affect the schedule 

[Borvoc]

You make a good point about the more recent, smaller stories all kind of flowing together, @Shaddy Zaphod, and I agree that we could probably use another open and closed arc with setup and payoff, though if I were to go back and reread those stories, I wonder if I’d find more distinct arcs than I remember. Getting only a part of the story once a month kind of breaks things up in a way that’s more difficult to follow specifically like that.

I also agree with @Leebo4that smaller, more personal arcs were probably needed after the Metal Virus Saga ended. It was a heavy arc, and we needed some levity to wash it down, and since some complain that Ian can go a bit too long with his arcs, it was probably nice to take a break for a while. Perhaps we could use just a little more of that again now, though.

Absolutely,@Danj86! Having something to say on the topic is always welcome even if you aren’t thoroughly familiar with the topic at hand, and I think you hit the nail on the head! I’m curious about you saying that you’re not yet sure if the comic is worth your time or not. Do you mind elaborating just a bit? I’ve been enjoying the comic so much that I’d love to talk you into giving it a try if I can come up with an angle to pique your interest.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Neo Saga and Metal Virus were big focused arcs. Now we have bunch smaller arcs that combine into looser narrative.

So "Slow down" is a completely wrong description. If anything, Metal Virus was slow and what he have now is fast.

If you want to complain, I would say we're dealing with Smaller Scale. Since 2006 Sonic comics usually charged from one epic battle to another. Enerjak, Scourge, Iron Queen, Mecha Sally, Unleashed, Neo Metal, Metal Virus. Some could argue having too much "big epic" in a row makes it less special, but Flynn tried to avoid that by stretching arcs, especially since Archie Reboot.

Current run isn't that much different from Archie Reboot. Only difference is there isn't any overarching threat (Dark Gaia) or goal were going towards. Sure, there were Statline and Surge, but until Imposters Syndrome it didn't felt like we're in mid of an arc.

 

[Danj86]

12 hours ago, Borvoc said:

Absolutely,@Danj86! Having something to say on the topic is always welcome even if you aren’t thoroughly familiar with the topic at hand, and I think you hit the nail on the head! I’m curious about you saying that you’re not yet sure if the comic is worth your time or not. Do you mind elaborating just a bit? I’ve been enjoying the comic so much that I’d love to talk you into giving it a try if I can come up with an angle to pique your interest.

Okay. Though before I elaborate, I feel the need to toss a curve ball. For it is not what the comic does that is what keeps me at arms length but rather what it could do.

I never read any Archie growing up, only knowing it through infamy when the internet became a main staple. One of the main reasons for it's infamy was the constant shipping of characters, Sonic especially. Years prior, even when the DiC cartoons would dabble in romance, I remember rolling my eyes and very quickly getting bored when they did that. So disliking this aspect in the Sonic franchise was integrated within me at practically the very beginning.

My negativity towards shipping would only get worse once I learned how toxic shipper fans can be, but that came later. But a disclaimer before continuing. I don't mind if people enjoy shipping characters, hell, I don't care who they ship them with. It's when it becomes an obsession and straight up anti-social towards others that it will start to bother me.

It's also worth knowing that I did grow up with a Sonic Comic. The lesser known one, affectionately known as Fleetway Sonic The Comic. This comic almost never had any romantic elements in any of it's stories if my memory is correct. It even famously had a borderline unlikable Sonic as well as his murderous alter ego in Super Sonic.

So to summarize. What's holding me back isn't really IDW and more to do with Archie. It might even be a moot concern as Sega are now keeping a close eye on things and while many decry Sega's insistence to keep the status quo, it does seem to benefit my concerns. Doesn't make them perfect, just look back at how they had the writers depict Shadow.

Their is also a feeling of Tangle and Whisper fatigue, but that's a separate issue and fairly self explanatory. I thought we were going to get a Knuckles story next, but was disappointed to learn that it's part of a bunch of smaller stories.

[sonicclaasic]

For me I've been enjoying reading the IDW Sonic comics series from the start to the mini series and so on. It does tend to slow down In the arcs and then builds up again In each story arcs It's like a pattern when the excitement goes up and then goes down that's how I feel and the Impression I get too when reading the comics.

[Borvoc]

I agree with your sentiment,@sonicclaasic, and it’s good to hear from you again, @MetalSkulkBane. After getting that great synopsis of the entire Archie Sonic run from you a few years back, I’d be curious to hear how you’d compare the current IDW run and whether or not you’ve been enjoying it.

And I get where you’re coming from,@Danj86. I find shipping pretty annoying myself, but IDW seems to more or less have a rule against that to avoid any drama. You still get Amy’s characteristic crush on Sonic here and there, and with no real competition since Sally’s no longer there, I guess you could call it a default ship even if it isn’t really focused on.

As far as getting an arc centered around Knuckles, I think that would be great! I also get that IDW has to center the book around Sonic, though, which is why I’d love to see them pull an Archie and eventually release a spin off “Universe”-style book to focus on a rotating cast of support character to flesh out the world.

A part of me wonders how many copies the main Sonic book would have to sell to convince IDW that an ongoing spin-off book like that would be viable, but on the other hand, I’m pretty sure it’s still outselling most issues of the Archie book, so I’m really not sure what’s holding them back unless they just haven’t thought of it yet for some reason.

[MetalSkulkBane]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:56 PM, Borvoc said:

and it’s good to hear from you again, @MetalSkulkBane. After getting that great synopsis of the entire Archie Sonic run from you a few years back, I’d be curious to hear how you’d compare the current IDW run and whether or not you’ve been enjoying it.

Aww, thanks.

Too extremely laconically summarize Flynn's work in Archie
- Preboot had massive lore behind it. it was rich and expansive, but also convoluted and contradicting. Foundation wasn't perfect, but watching this flawed universe transform into something more exciting, more focused, more Sonic... was really cool. It probably had too subplots going on (idea of Neo Walkers teased in 187, never see them), but what we got was fun.
- Reboot was a fresh start, with better foundation, but starting from scrap. And this I think was it's biggest flaw: Flynn was super focused on re-building the size of the old world, introducing too many characters with too little screen time. Maybe it would've been worth it if comic didn't die so soon.

 

More could be said, but it would require a small essay on each of them. My point is that with IDW, Flynn changed his strategy once more.

IDW barely tries any "world-building". Cities are generic, new characters are sporadic, and there is much less seeding plots for the future. And now that IDW is kinda canon to the games, it will even less try to make it's own identity.

The flaws of this are obvious, but there are upsides. If the comic will die for a 3rd time, everything will feel much more complete. Plus space in comics is always limited, so pages not used on world-building can be focused on characters and action. Comparing first issue of IDW to Reboot (252). IDW has only 2 named characters, so story has more energy and fun. Archie has like 7 (plus Orbot/Cubot) and seeds many plots for future, but is less gratifying in the moment.

This focus is working fairly well for IDW. Tangle and Whisper are way more fun than all the sub-FF groups combined because comic gave us time to learn to love them. Also I think art never been better,. Adam Bryan Thomas especially shines when he doesn't have to draw 4 issue in a row, instead switching every month with Evan Stanley or Yardley.

And some people will hate me for saying this, but Sonic works so much better without Freedom Fighters. Love or hate them, Sonic wasn't designed to drag 6+ people with him all the time, every issue desperately trying to give them something to do. I much prefer Sega cast, but even if didn't, the current system allows for more flexibility depending on the story.

My biggest gripes with IDW are mostly beyond the control of Flynn. 1 I Shadow strangled by mandates 2 We NEED that Sonic Universe book. Those are were often better than a main book.

 

That's my broad look, now more focused on issue-to issue
- Neo Saga (1-12) relied a bit too much on boring badnik mashing. The main goal was to quickly re-introduce Sega Cast (and few new faces), and end the year with a big epic battle. It wasn't exactly deep or emotional like Mecha Madness, more of a quick rush of energy and with you favorite characters. Overall fun arc as long as you know what you're getting.
- Metal Virus (13-32) was a touch long, but I think it helped to sell the atmosphere. A deliciously oppressive atmosphere as Flynn absolutely nailed the zombie apocalypse vibe. What it lacked in variety, it more than made up with tons of great sad emotional moments. With that said I have no idea why Flynn bothered to give Sonic amnesia that barely lasts an issue. Epilogue wasn't needed.
- Eggman Legacy (33-50? Or maybe till 56?) Is muuuuch looser story arc, only tied by Starline and Belle. As I said in the previous post, I could see why people might miss a "proper' overarching story.  Metal Virus was so long, maybe we need a breather, but how long breather? And this is when Evan Stanley took over. She has strengths over Flynn, but generally, I think he's better writer.
Stories went up and down. "Chao Races" had fun ideas, but pushed far too many characters and plots at once. "Test Run" took place in weird dimensions, that got less odd and fascinating with each issue. "Zeti Hunt" was a simple, but fun story. But it all pales next to "Imposter Syndrome" and following Issue 50. Simply amazing stories, some of the best Sonic Comic ever made, with Surge & Kit winning people's hearts in record time...
- Post 50
... with both of them immediately returning in the "Overpowered" story. And I'm really confused why. It's not a bad story per se, just repeats far too many beats from Issue 50 and concludes in an underwhelming manner. Still, it did explore interesting angles, like seeing Imposters separated. "Urban Warfare" was... very odd story. IDK, the plot was all over the place. it had tons of fun moments, but the structure reminds me of Worlds Unite in a bad way. On the bright side, everyone loved the "Scrapnik Island" mini.

 

 

[Borvoc]

Dang,@MetalSkulkBane. That’s another fantastic analysis! I didn’t even really notice IDW’s lack of worldbuilding aside from when it was most obvious in the first four issues. Since then, there’s been enough focus on personal stories or fights with Eggman that my attention was all focused on those things instead. I’d love to see a little more worldbuilding return, now that you mention it, but it’s possible that I won’t even miss it if it doesn’t.

Also, yay! Someone agrees with me about needing another “Sonic Universe” book again! I’m the only one I know of who’s said this, but it’s so obvious to me! Some of Archie Sonic’s best stories really were in that book, and it also set up a lot of great stuff for the main book that the main book couldn’t have set up on its own with its focus so tightly trained on Sonic himself. To be frank, I’d take another book like that over this “Classic Sonic” book IDW’s been pitching off and on and that I fear might actually come into existence with the announcement of Sonic Superstars.

Tangle and Whisper have certainly been a lot of fun. Probably more fun than any of Archie’s non-Freedom-Fighters, like you said, but to address @Danj86’s fears, I’m happy to say that I’m glad they didn’t “take over” the book. To be honest, I was a little put off by Tangle to start with just because of how much she was used, but since her introduction, she seems to have been pushed back just a little so that she fits with the rest of the crew without being obnoxious.

Whisper, on the other hand, has never been a problem for me, and I’m glad that Evan added Belle to the mix as well to kind of balance things out so that it doesn’t all get reduced to Tangle and Whisper as a duo on their own. As for the freedom Fighters, I unfortunately have to agree that they felt a little too forced into a lot of Archie stories, though this was most evident in how they bogged down the adaptations of otherwise much-more-streamlined game stories.

Still, I miss the melting pot of Sonic lore that was the post-reboot Archie continuity, where they could use characters like Scratch, Grounder, and that one scientist guy from AoStH in a way that still felt in keeping with the mainline games, and I hope that someday we get the chance to see a return of the Freedom Fighters in a similar way—so long as they’re introduced in a way that doesn’t bog down the story again.

I’m also curious as to what you think Stanley’s strengths are over Flynn’s (and vice versa), but I personally think one of them is the bit of intimacy she adds to her characters. Belle, for example, is cute in a way I’m not sure I’ve seen from any of Ian’s original characters, and her history with Mr. Tinker is so innocent and personal that it really stands out to me. I don’t think she’s yet to pull off a large, overarching story like Ian has, though, so perhaps that’s the sort of thing about differing strengths you might have been referring to.

Anyway, like I said, lots of good points and thoughts. Thanks again for sharing!

[MetalSkulkBane]

6 hours ago, Borvoc said:

Tangle and Whisper have certainly been a lot of fun. Probably more fun than any of Archie’s non-Freedom-Fighters, like you said, but to address @Danj86’s fears, I’m happy to say that I’m glad they didn’t “take over” the book. To be honest, I was a little put off by Tangle to start with just because of how much she was used, but since her introduction, she seems to have been pushed back just a little so that she fits with the rest of the crew without being obnoxious.

I'm torn on Tangle, because I think she has just a liiiittle bit too much screen , but... well she's fun. She's infectiously fun. I tried to not like her, but I failed. So I guess I'm fine.

I just wish she got to team-up with other Sonic characters like Shadow or Chaotix. But formation of New Diamond Cutters implies she's stick to old crew for longer.

6 hours ago, Borvoc said:

I’m also curious as to what you think Stanley’s strengths are over Flynn’s (and vice versa), but I personally think one of them is the bit of intimacy she adds to her characters. Belle, for example, is cute in a way I’m not sure I’ve seen from any of Ian’s original characters, and her history with Mr. Tinker is so innocent and personal that it really stands out to me. I don’t think she’s yet to pull off a large, overarching story like Ian has, though, so perhaps that’s the sort of thing about differing strengths you might have been referring to.

Broadly speaking, Evan sees Sonic Cast more like people, Ian more like cartoons.

Ian's is better at quips, jokes funny moments. His writing has more structure, more "okay, what's the point of this scene, what's the development, what's the goal".

Evan is more free spirited. In "Chao Racing" there is a moment where Rouge steal a strawberry and eat it. It's not a joke, foreshadowing, or a plot point. It's just something that's in-character for Rouge to do, because stealing is her second nature.

Compare "Trial by Fire" to latest issue with Amy and Knuckles. While they both show Amy bonding with characters, Flynn tires to include jokes, talk continuity, has a clear challenge for them to face. Stanley's writing is a bit more aimless, relaxed. There is plot later, but first issue is just camping and tarot cards. (You could argue her plot is looser because it has 3 issues, but I say Flynn would never pitch story like that for 3 issues.)

Also, Flynn is much less into making mysteries. Something like "Nixus the Echidna" wasn't even trying to fool you about his real identity. Or Neo Saga, mystery villain was pretty bare bones. Stanley has more flair for keeping thing vague and secretive. Belle's backstory, Starline hiding under his hood in "Chao Racing", whole "Test Run", or Archie with "Silver Age".

I think it has something to do with their backgrounds. Stanley has ongoing fan comic, where she's free to do whatever she wants, set up plotlines and mysteries and then finish them on her own pace. (Ghosts of the Future Past has a looooot of unanswered questions). Plus she's actual artists, so she might think more about little actions characters do (like eating a strawberry). Writer doesn't care about details, but artist must visualize exactly what characters do in every panel.

Meanwhile Flynn has bad memories of his fanfic days (Other M). He's a professional writer, with tons of project. His style has more structure, more outline, but also more polish coming from experience. Bumblekast shows a lot of it, he must come up with scene and jokes in seconds. So yes, he kinda relies on structure and familiar tropes and most of his answer he treats Sonic Cast as funny cartoons, to give funny responses.  But give him credit, it's incredible how creative answers he can give for hundreds of questions every week. Can you blame him if he kinda simplifies his job using certain tropes? (Sure, his professional writing process must be different from quick BK replies, but I imagine it still affects the way he thinks. )

 

And just to be clear, those are subtle differences. I'm not saying Flynn writes Looney Tunes or that Evan can't write comedy. If I read next issue without checking credits, I might have hard time guessing who wrote it. And I bet Ian wrote very Evan-like story and vice versa.

 

(Also, Aleah Baker is clearly really good at "going for feels". Nicole's Past, Cassia & Clove, even Proto Man Vs Knuckles. For other modern Sonic writers I have too small sample size to make any claims about their styles.)

[Borvoc]

Huh, I guess I never thought of the Bumblekast as a showcase for Ian’s impromptu storytelling abilities, but it really is! I really have no idea where the man gets all that energy to dive so wholeheartedly into every single question he gets, and it’s almost always either entertaining or enlightning.

[Rabbitearsblog]

I thought that they started making shorter stories from this point forward because of the complaints about the Metal Virus being too long.

[Borvoc]

I think you’re completely right,@Rabbitearsblog. I guess people are complaining about the opposite now, though.

Also, I’ve been thinking about your comment that Ian isn’t very strong on mystery, @MetalSkulkBane, and I realize that’s one of my main primary complaints about the conclusion of the Neo Metal arc. When the fake Eggman’s identity was revealed in the same issue that Sonic first met him, I almost fell back in disappointment.

All I could think about was how fun it would’ve been to have had that teased out for at least another six issues so we could wonder how on earth there could be two Eggmen. Looking back, how fun would it have been if it had been Neo Metal Sonic, under the guise of Eggman, who sussed out the location of Mr. Tinker and abducted him?

We could have had bits where the resistance had to come together to save their once enemy from…himself and gotten a glimpse into an Eggman on Eggman interrogation, in which Neo Metal Sonic fails to do what Starline will eventually accomplish. In some ways, you could have Neo Metal Sonic slipping out of character by mistake only for Mr. Tinker to accidentally prove himself the “truer” Eggman through subtle mannerisms or mechanical prowess.

That would be when Starline swoops in to show that after studying the great doctor, he knows what Metal Sonic had overlooked: that the only real way to awaken the real Eggman is to force a confrontation with Sonic. Knowing this, he breaks Mr. Tinker out of his cell and forces him to watch Sonic in an no-holds-barred match against the Fake Eggman, at which point Mr. Tinker finds himself awkwardly finds himself more and more irritated by Sonic’s antics and refusal to take the fight seriously.

Finally, as sonic deals the final blow the the Fake Eggman’s machine, something in Mr. Tinker snaps. “How dare he destroy such brilliant craftsmanship without even a hit of appreciation. I…hate that hedgehog,” he realizes as flashes of past defeats return to him like a storm. “Out of the way, you faker!” he yells at Neo Metal sonic, brushing him to the side as he enters the machine himself, forcing a reboot as the engines roar back to life.

Sonic stands aghast as Eggman’s machine rises again, unfolding into a larger weapon than before, and then a smile slowly spreads across his face. “Dr. Eggman, I presume,” he chuckles, rushing his long-time enemy. To be continued.

Anyway, sorry for the impromptu fanfiction, but I can’t help but imagine how that story could have unfolded if the mystery had been given just a little more room to breath before the Battle for Angel Island could start in earnest. Metal Sonic reboots back to his original self, now under the control of Dr. Eggman, as the Chaotix, Team Dark, the resistance, etc. all bear down on  the two of them and their fleet.

The end is the same, but as Eggman is forced to retreat, he remarks that more time would be needed to accomplish his real plan. “How did you free me from that accursed amnesia, though?” he asks Metal Sonic, to which the machine replies that he didn’t. “Of course,” he huffs, “In the end, it had to be my own genius that saved me,” but then the silhouette of a smug platypus appears in the doorway. “Actually, Doctor, it was mine.”