Was Pre-Flynn Archie superior in anyway to Flynn era?

[MetalSkulkBane]

Ian Flynn is generally agreed to be one of best writers Sonic ever had. Far from flawless, but majority seems to agree he highly improves story standards in Sonic, especially when in comes to Archie Sonic. I mean, just read issues 159 and 160. It's crazy they came month apart.

But I like listening to both sides, so I'm very curious: is there any aspect in old Archie that you find better than Flynn's stuff? Even small stuff?

The only major thing that comes to my mind is he stopped creating new characters/concepts, jut reusing old ones. Some could see it as lack of creativity. Of course (to me):
1) He's basically real dad to Scourge, Finitevus, Shard, and numerous other characters
2) This way was showing respect to previous writers, making world connected and developed
3) Archie Reboot and IDW prove that Flynn is perfectly capable of creating new great characters.

On a smaller scale there are few specific characters that some could argue Flynn "ruined".
Charmy was never handled well in past and Flynn was trying to fix it, but I must admit he made a mistake.
Similarly, Pre-Flynn Fiona was a piece of wood, so I don't mind that Flynn turned her evil. The only time good-guy Fiona was somewhat interesting was (ironically) Flynn's first 12 issues.
The only character I do think Flynn wrote badly (and many won't agree with me anyway) was Locke.  But either way, flaws of Flynn don't really count as "praise" for older writers.

[SkyHorizon]

Flynn managed to made Locke an interesting character and (partly) redeemed him. How did he ruin it??? 

[King Scoopa Koopa]

I'd have to check, but I'm pretty sure he created some new characters after taking over. Conquering Storm comes to mind.

The thing is, when doing the reboot and IDW, he had to effectively form anything not in the games from whole cloth, so yeah, he created a lot more there. But before all that, there were so many underutilized and/or underdeveloped characters already, why add more to the pile?
 

If there was a toy company demanding new product to make, that would be one thing, but there wasn't. So actually injecting life into what was already there and adding only as needed, rather than just for the sake of it, made sense.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, SkyHorizon said:

Flynn managed to made Locke an interesting character and (partly) redeemed him. How did he ruin it??? 

Penders writing was noooooooot good, but he though of Locke as great dad, accidentally writing him as kinda a monster.
Flynn acknowledged that by writing Locke as someone who THINKS is a good person, realizes by the end he's bastard, redeems himself in death.

Sounds great, right? Why do I complain?

Because Locke had bunch of problems but he LOVED his son. It was never-ever in question. KtE 29-32, he throws Monk (ape guy) off Angel Island for mere bulling his son. Yes he microwaved a baby, but to make Knuckles strong enough to survive dark future. Yes, he abandoned Knuckles as a child, but was watching over him 24/7. Creepily but lovingly. Locke would NEVER decide to kill his beloved son, even if he turned into Enerjak.

Other scene. Remember when Locke meet his ex-wife for the first time since divorce? She tells him she re-married and seconds later he kisses her. That is totally stupid and bad behavior written by Penders.
But then in 165 Flynn writes Locke being ass toward Knuckles and down right threatening him "I'm so busy, I might not be able to protect your mom". Do you see how this is Locke being a bad person, but in opposite way?
Locke by Penders loved his wife possessively, too much. Locke by Flynn loved her too little, using her as leverage over Knuckles. This is shows to me that Flynn didn't real get Locke. He redeemed him from flaws dude didn't originally had.

Last thing: Penders already killed Locke in issue #143. Yes that was XYL timeline, but Penders wrote this thinking it's official. He made it as emotional as he could, dying Locke even admits to making many mistakes. And the story was dedicated to Penders' own dead father.
I don't like Penders at all. But don't tell me it's not just a little disrespectful to change that, especially the way Flynn did?

Pender wrote complex character, but did it badly. Flynn wrote basically a villain who acknowledges his villainy at the end. Which option is better is up to debate.

[GentlemanX]

Comparing Flynn to what came before him isn't really a fair comparison. The previous writers were working in essentially a completely different environment than when Ian took over. There was little oversight as to what say Gallagher or Penders could introduce and the tone of the comic had a lot of experimentation and variety to see what felt right. The book started with SatAM's characters and premise, but was far closer in tone with AOSTH. The initial comics are full of parodies of other comics that were either popular at the time or were something that the writer grew up with (Penders inserted a lot of DC and Marvel homages during this period of the comic). Eventually the decision was made to lean closer to SatAM in terms of tone, but even months before Endgame the team was still putting out inconsequential one offs like issues 44 and 45. It was around the time Bollers started writing that things really settled into a consistent formula and it was still dictated more by what the team thought might work rather than what matched the brand as a whole. This is why you have the Sonic x Sally x Mina triangle taking up this part of the book mirroring what had historically worked with the main Archie brand and I'd be surprised if it didn't take some inspiration from Robotech and the Rick x Lisa x Minmay dynamic from that.

By the time Ian took over, the book had undergone a huge editorial shift where Mike Pellerito had succeeded Justin Gabrie and Pellerito wanted to take the book in a new direction. When Ian came on board, the agenda was to get the comics more in line with the games and to especially clean house from everything the previous writing team had been developing for years at that point. Even things Ian didn't necessarily want like killing of Mecha were part of his marching orders. This resulted in establishing a brisk pace for Ian's run on pre-reboot and the success of taking old concepts and reorganizing them became a hallmark of his throughout this era of the book. While post-reboot required introducing a bunch of new characters to fill the void, Ian still managed to repeat this at times here too such as re-purposing Dulcy and Breezie. It's only in IDW that Ian's really focused on new characters given the game setting doesn't allow for as much revision of existing content.

In short, you have a bunch of writers given little direction and deciding to see what fans at the time wanted and what they personally found interesting to write about versus someone who grew up with and sought out information about the larger franchise and used that knowledge, alongside personally growing up with the comic and given an edict by editorial to go in a new direction, to breath new life into an existing product. Both resulted in great stories and art and I think it's fairer to review both on their own merits.

[SanPolo4389]

6 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

On smaller scale there are few specific characters that some could argue Flynn "ruined".

Another one I can think of is how he did Rouge with how she’d try to steal Knuckles from Julie-Su or her literally wanting Blaze’s Sol emerald and did not care if her world would get destroyed. 
 

Though he does write her better in the reboot and IDW. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

@GentlemanXIn theory, I do agree with you. But people constantly argue whether Classic Sonic or Adventure Style or Boost Style are superior. Or comparing Zeldas or Disney movies or Star Wars trilogies. No one says "Well times and technology were different, so why even bother comparing?"

If Pre-Flynn stuff "resulted in great stories and art" then I think it's worth pointing out what they did anything better, thus better realizing what Flynn & other writers could learn from the past. Right now I feel like there isn't anything significant like that and that makes me feel guilty, like I'm being dismissive of the older stuff.

[Promethean0416]

In a way, I have to respect the work that came from the comic's early days and beyond prior to #160 as it was built from so little and molded into a universe that was more than just what they had to work with at the time. 

When Ian took over, he definitely improved many of the characters and some plotholes from past stories (despite a couple of gaffes, most notably with Mina and Mogul), and I thought House of Cards deserved to be longer, with the most notable thing wrapped up too quickly in my opinion. The Eggman Empire arc remains one of his strongest, in my opinion.

Everybody has their preferences and to me, every creative member of the book (writer/artist/inker/editor, etc.) had a role to play in the former universe's expansion and I wish it could have stayed longer before it was Genesified and had to be rebuilt from the ground up.

[King Scoopa Koopa]

5 hours ago, SanPolo4389 said:

Another one I can think of is how he did Rouge with how she’d try to steal Knuckles from Julie-Su or her literally wanting Blaze’s Sol emerald and did not care if her world would get destroyed. 
 

Though he does write her better in the reboot and IDW. 

Was that really Flynn, though? I thought that was the version he basically inherited from the prior regime.

It's like Sally's dad pre- and post-reboot. Unlike the cartoon, he was a jerk in the comics before he came on, so he didn't just suddenly become a swell guy once the number turned over to 160.

While I'd say she improved over time, she was still a different Rouge that came from a different place.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Rouge was barely used pre-Flynn (SA2 adaptation, SA 2.5, Evil Sonic team-up), so most decisions were his (or you know, Sega, editor, etc). Personally, I think the Team Tangle thing was lame, but arc is so good I'm willing to overlook it.

As for Julie-Su stuff... no, that's totally in characters. She had a crush on Knuckles, so she tried to woo him, everything fair in love and war and such. No dirty tricks, beyond the fact that he's "taken". And yes, she got into a fight with Julie-Su in #165, but Julie started the fight. Rouge simply finished it.

 

(Sidenote, I feel like the discussion focuses too much on Flynn's FLAWS, and too little on pre-Flynn STRENGTHS. I guess it's kinda my fault...)

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I’m surprised this is even a question.

No.

And I say this as someone who likes a number of Pre-Flynn stories. We’re it not for Flynn’s touch to that very material, I would’ve cared even less about it when it went away. So that he managed to make something of it that I actually want back is a testament to who was the better writer.

That’s not to say there weren’t any gems. I did enjoy the Return to Angel Island, and I was a sucker for the Sonic in Space arc after issue 125. We can be fair and say that a lot of writers, including Penders, had interesting ideas. Monkey Khan, Endgame (as shoddily written as it is by current standards), hell even the Dark Legion. I can’t say I had a problem with the Mobius 30 YL story Penders had conceived, but as far as the idea of previous stories being better? I wouldn’t really say that.

But they were building blocks that Flynn would later come to improve upon. It would be far better to say that Pre-Flynn was diverse, rich, and interesting than actually better given it gave Sonic a great, connected world to be a part of.

Granted, we’d be speaking a different tune had certain events not played out the way they had leading up to today.

That is to say, Pre-Flynn era was as good as Sonic’s first cartoon series, AoSTH. It is what it is. There’s something worthwhile in it, but nothing particularly great beyond being a work that represented the franchise.

[Promethean0416]

44 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I’m surprised this is even a question.

No.

And I say this as someone who likes a number of Pre-Flynn stories. We’re it not for Flynn’s touch to that very material, I would’ve cared even less about it when it went away. So that he managed to make something of it that I actually want back is a testament to who was the better writer.

That’s not to say there weren’t any gems. I did enjoy the Return to Angel Island, and I was a sucker for the Sonic in Space arc after issue 125. We can be fair and say that a lot of writers, including Penders, had interesting ideas. Monkey Khan, Endgame (as shoddily written as it is by current standards), hell even the Dark Legion. I can’t say I had a problem with the Mobius 30 YL story Penders had conceived, but as far as the idea of previous stories being better? I wouldn’t really say that.

But they were building blocks that Flynn would later come to improve upon. It would be far better to say that Pre-Flynn was diverse, rich, and interesting than actually better given it gave Sonic a great, connected world to be a part of.

Granted, we’d be speaking a different tune had certain events not played out the way they had leading up to today.

That is to say, Pre-Flynn era was as good as Sonic’s first cartoon series, AoSTH. It is what it is. There’s something worthwhile in it, but nothing particularly great beyond being a work that represented the franchise.

You mean 25YL? I think Flynn was the one who made 30YL (from the 25YL premise, but still).

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 minutes ago, Promethean0416 said:

You mean 25YL? I think Flynn was the one who made 30YL (from the 25YL premise, but still).

Yeah, I mixed them up.

Flynn should’ve just stuck with Penders’ title and chalked it up to the time travel shenanigans.

[Rabbitearsblog]

It's kind of hard to say honestly.  On the one hand, Flynn's run was much more organized and he did a lot of interesting things with the characters that existed in the pre-reboot era, such as Shard and Scourge; while with the pre-Flynn era, many of the story lines were disorganized, leaving a lot of story lines to be left unresolved and a lot of characters were written pretty terribly (Sally and the infamous "slap" anyone)?  But on the other hand, Flynn's run sort of played it safer than the runs before him and there were some characters that were written terribly during his run (Charmy, anyone)?  Also, the pre-Flynn era had more freedom to do what they wanted with the characters (although some portrayals were a hit or miss).  So, it really depends on what you want out of Archie Sonic.  If you want stories that take huge risks with the characters, then yeah, the pre-Flynn era is superior in that area.  However, if you want a more game accurate portrayal of the characters and the world they live in, then Flynn's run is superior in that area. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

9 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

 If you want stories that take huge risks with the characters, then yeah, the pre-Flynn era is superior in that area.

Any specific example? Ones that paid off that is, not "what if we turn Knuckles green"?

[Adamis]

The Dark Enerjak saga in SU took some huge risks, with almost the entire cast being killed by Enerjackles... even if their death was "disguised", but the message was clear. It was very surprising to see Sega approving that, and it felt huge. IMO, one of the best arcs.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

On 6/16/2023 at 2:56 AM, Adamis said:

The Dark Enerjak saga in SU took some huge risks, with almost the entire cast being killed by Enerjackles... even if their death was "disguised", but the message was clear. It was very surprising to see Sega approving that, and it felt huge. IMO, one of the best arcs.

That and it was perhaps Silver’s greatest highlight.

None of his appearances since, both Archie and IDW have been able to top that for him. I’d say that was his version of “Limit?! I got your limit right here!”

[Guergy]

I really have a special fondness for the early era of Archie, I do agree that the Flynn era is better at some stuff. For me, I really like how the series wasn't exactly like the games and the characters could be thing their own thing.