Sonic Frontiers - Review Roundup.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Kuzu said:

Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) 

Been years later, and a lot of the staff are different. Also, I would hope that this time they don't have an overzealous lead director who abandons the project mid-way. Lol

[Kuzu]

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Been years later, and a lot of the staff are different. Also, I would hope that this time they don't have an overzealous lead director who abandons the project mid-way. Lol

They're different, yet still carry a lot of the same problems. The only difference is that the games are functional as opposed to broken. 

 

What Sonic Team need to learn is how to balance their ambition versus what's actually feasible; they either fly too close to the sun or they don't even try to fly at all. 

[The Deleter]

Offsetting the blame to SEGA for the scope of the game only works in so far as searching for excuses for why the game is the way it is. Indie devs such as Hello Games rightfully get called out when the scope of their project exceeds what they are actually capable of creating, because it's on them for not managing their project outlook correctly from the start. Sonic Team already knew how many team members it had when they started creating Frontiers, and a team the size of a typical Mario production is no major failure on a publisher's part; they simply decided to make a game that pushed their resources to the limit, and this is now reflected in the final product.

You can argue that it would be unwise of SEGA to not offer Sonic Team additional manpower in the future, due to this decision to pursue this more ambitious direction, yes, but it was just as equally unwise on Sonic Team's part to not maintain the scope of their project within the manpower they already knew they had ahead of time. Just because a game decides to be open ended does not mean it has to stretch its resources thin by default.

[Sega DogTagz]

2 hours ago, Wraith said:

I think instead of beefing up their staff they should consider a more economical concept. I'm not sure if frontiers would have lost anything if they went for a smaller map. 

A smaller map would cut down on the manpower needed to fill it in, but I'm not sure that's a comprise that you can just make considering how much ground Sonic is able to cover. 

 

There is a lot of real estate in frontiers, but Sonic's speed makes any distance child's play. The fast travel is near instantaneous - but Sonic is so fast, just running to your intended destination is never truly off the table. A smaller map would be a travesty. You don't want to turn your deserts into a sandbox. 

[Indigo Rush]

If the overworld consisted of deliberate platforming and other obstacles rather than an empty terrain with rails floating everywhere, I don't think a smaller map would be as big of an issue. Also, it's okay to slow Sonic down. He doesn't need to be able to reach ludicrous speeds at any given moment to feel fast. Something in line with SA1 would be just fine.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

A smaller map would cut down on the manpower needed to fill it in, but I'm not sure that's a comprise that you can just make considering how much ground Sonic is able to cover. 

There is a lot of real estate in frontiers, but Sonic's speed makes any distance child's play. The fast travel is near instantaneous - but Sonic is so fast, just running to your intended destination is never truly off the table. A smaller map would be a travesty. You don't want to turn your deserts into a sandbox. 

Make him slower 

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

A smaller map would cut down on the manpower needed to fill it in, but I'm not sure that's a comprise that you can just make considering how much ground Sonic is able to cover. 

This is why actual platforming, loops, half pipes, and ramps would be necessary...

Stuff that would prevent Sonic from just blasting through the environment, serve double duty as traversal tools or transitionary land marks, etc.

[ZinogreVolt]

I think Chaos Island and Ares Island served as pretty good compromise for that, since those cannot be easily traversed without having decent understanding of each map's layouts. But problems still arise since platforming segments and the like are not naturally baked into the environment, save for some rare instances. Even so, the main problem is that Frontiers fundamentally is something that feels like it's holding itself back, and I think Sonic Team knows this, at least to some extent given the intensive playtesting and feedback they've received. I think (and hope) they'll stick with the open zone format for the next game, but not without some major overhauls to address some of the problems with Frontiers that they simply couldn't fix without upending the whole thing as it was already.

[Kuzu]

18 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Make him slower 

How slow we talking? Because he moves dreadfully slow when you aren't boosting. 

[ZinogreVolt]

Just now, Kuzu said:

How slow we talking? Because he moves dreadfully slow when you aren't boosting. 

Ideally, he'd start slow and build up speed over time/depending on terrain... like how he's normally supposed to.

[StaticMania]

Make his "boost" slower...

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

41 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

They're different, yet still carry a lot of the same problems. The only difference is that the games are functional as opposed to broken. 

What Sonic Team need to learn is how to balance their ambition versus what's actually feasible; they either fly too close to the sun or they don't even try to fly at all. 

I think we can at least agree that while it takes balance, the best outcome would be most likely attained by a mix of Sonic Team managing their ambition, along with SEGA doing their own part to actually help beefen up the production values of the games.

Given the circumstances at hand, Sonic Team had something a herculean task laid out before them, which they managed to attain with highly increased positivity from fans, even bringing back some fans who'd long been disgruntled with the series, along with even getting critics to perken up in regards to the brand. So, clearly they're doing something right.

And unlike with 06, they actually had a concrete idea that they stuck to for the most part in Frontiers.

What paints the better picture for Sonic Team in this regard is that they've actually been putting their money where their mouth is over the course of Frontiers' development. If they hadn't been, I wouldn't really be advocating for them.

So, essentially, with a somewhat reeled in bout, but with better production, Frontiers could really use a "Sonic 2" to go with its "Sonic 1" if you catch my drift.

[Kuzu]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I think we can at least agree that while it takes balance, the best outcome would be most likely attained by a mix of Sonic Team managing their ambition, along with SEGA doing their own part to actually help beefen up the production values of the games.

Given the circumstances at hand, Sonic Team had something a herculean task laid out before them, which they managed to attain with highly increased positivity from fans, even bringing back some fans who'd long been disgruntled with the series, along with even getting critics to perken up in regards to the brand. So, clearly they're doing something right.

And unlike with 06, they actually had a concrete idea that they stuck to for the most part in Frontiers.

What paints the better picture for Sonic Team in this regard is that they've actually been putting their money where their mouth is over the course of Frontiers' development. If they hadn't been, I wouldn't really be advocating for them.

So, essentially, with a somewhat reeled in bout, but with better production, Frontiers could really use a "Sonic 2" to go with its "Sonic 1" if you catch my drift.

Not enough if you ask me; yes I am aware of all of the production issues with Sonic Team and Sega low-balling them, but I still have to pay money for and play these games at the end of the day. 

So yea, waiting half a decade and getting something that's only "Decent" doesn't exactly fill me with excitement for the next game. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Not enough if you ask me; yes I am aware of all of the production issues with Sonic Team and Sega low-balling them, but I still have to pay money for and play these games at the end of the day. 

So yea, waiting half a decade and getting something that's only "Decent" doesn't exactly fill me with excitement for the next game. 

I do get the feeling that we won't have to wait as long for the next game. Common as it has been, we also do have to remember that COVID wrecked things bad, which likely contributed to the longer wait.

It happened to plenty of other games, some of which are still affected by it, and Sonic is no different.

[Wraith]

18 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

How slow we talking? Because he moves dreadfully slow when you aren't boosting. 

It wouldn't feel as slow if every point of interest was closer together. 

[azoo]

Smaller maps, more Sonic terrain, and more NPCs/side-objectives would all do wonders towards a future game. Think less BotW or Horizon, more Odyssey or Bowser's Fury (or at least somewhere between those two categories). All the better if it actually reduces time/work on one environment to reduce the scale, because then we can maybe get a reasonable amount of Zones again.

A return of "Cyberspace" (or preferably "emerald gate") stages also leave me begging the question: why not just make those one theme? Make more open zones with more themes, and turn these stages into.. well, like the Special Stages of yore. Give them one trippy aesthetic and at least I'd be good.

Also a less melodramatic tone wouldn't hurt.

[ZinogreVolt]

Just now, azoo said:

A return of "Cyberspace" (or preferably "emerald gate") stages also leave me begging the question: why not just make those one theme? Make more open zones with more themes, and turn these stages into.. well, like the Special Stages of yore. Give them one trippy aesthetic and at least I'd be good.

I think they should throw in different times of day and maybe different weather and stuff for the Cyberspace type stuff. The sunset/nighttime levels in Frontiers looked really nice, but came up less frequently than I'd have liked.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

5 minutes ago, azoo said:

turn these stages into.. well, like the Special Stages of yore. Give them one trippy aesthetic and at least I'd be good.

Honestly, the "special stages" in Frontiers are probably some of the most tolerable special stages by virtue of not having annoying gimmicks, including how to even get into the damn stages like other Sonic games. Just tighten the controls of cyberspace and hopefully we should be fine in that department.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Now, in terms of aesthetics for them? Absolutely go wild.

[Kuzu]

44 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It wouldn't feel as slow if every point of interest was closer together. 

 

16 minutes ago, azoo said:

Smaller maps, more Sonic terrain, and more NPCs/side-objectives would all do wonders towards a future game. Think less BotW or Horizon, more Odyssey or Bowser's Fury (or at least somewhere between those two categories). All the better if it actually reduces time/work on one environment to reduce the scale, because then we can maybe get a reasonable amount of Zones again.

A return of "Cyberspace" (or preferably "emerald gate") stages also leave me begging the question: why not just make those one theme? Make more open zones with more themes, and turn these stages into.. well, like the Special Stages of yore. Give them one trippy aesthetic and at least I'd be good.

Also a less melodramatic tone wouldn't hurt.

I only asked because even back in the Classics, Sonic's levels are already larger than the average platformer to accommodate for his speed. 

So if you reduce Sonic's speed and scale down the level size, well....

 

So you kind of need to balance the size of the levels; you don't want them too small so that Sonic feels too slow, but you don't want them too large either where its largely filled with nothing of interest. 

[azoo]

That's why I said "or at least somewhere between the two". It'd definitely need bigger maps than Odyssey to accommodate for how Sonic even a slow day goes double Mario's speed, but the game definitely doesn't have to be anywhere as big as Frontiers wants to be to make use of Sonic running free in an open space.

Personally I don't think anything has to change about how fast Sonic currently moves, besides momentum-related fixes (retaining speed into a jump, more exaggerated rolling physics, stronger aversity to moving uphill and a little more push downhill). Hell, I imagine you could even use the "Action Mode" speed as the base and it'd work fine, considering you add/fix the above. 

[The Deleter]

 

This is how classic Sonic's scope increased as more moves were added - moves that made progression and achievement of speed easier to accomplish. In my eyes Sonic reaches his most ideal state when there are a multitude of routes to explore and replay, but tuning the scope of the game back would undeniably enable the stages to be more reasonable in scope.

The only problem is the last time we asked for that, we got Sonic Lost World, which threw the generic Sonic physics out with the bathwater. Even Frontiers comes so close yet so far with how the Cyberspace stages do have some form of classic-esque momentum with the speed caps and the boosters breaking those caps, but the jump destroying your momentum anyways, just like SLW. It's maddening.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Not enough if you ask me; yes I am aware of all of the production issues with Sonic Team and Sega low-balling them, but I still have to pay money for and play these games at the end of the day. 

So yea, waiting half a decade and getting something that's only "Decent" doesn't exactly fill me with excitement for the next game. 

By buying the game, you helped fund and test the foundations of the next game though. Does that not count for something? Think of it like, we're still waiting for the next Sonic game, and Sonic Team had the grace to release an early build of it. By the time it comes out, it'll technically be ten years in the making! 

[Polkadi~☆]

That Sonic Frontiers only had about 60 developers working on the game makes another thing surrounding the game funny to me.

Another SEGA open world game was being developed since 2017, before finally releasing last year. Phantasy Star Online 2: New Genesis is extremely disappointing, and the updates can't come soon enough to bring players back. The game is being serviced with a small team. But how can that be, a small team working on this big, anticipated online RPG? When Sonic Frontiers gameplay was finally revealed, PSO2 players pointed to that game for poaching PSO2 devs to work on the game, that NGS was no more than a tech demo for Sonic, that Sonic Frontiers was borrowing NGS assets or the other way around, whatever the hell excuses people made.

I mean, it was all very obviously and provably wrong. And with the credits of both games, shared no names on the dev team.

Both games have an underwhelming amount of manpower for the scope of their games, and both clearly weren't entirely finished yet. I mean, difference is that I like playing Frontiers, but it tells me that SEGA had two dev teams, independent of each other, unable to make an open world game, and has fans complaining about the development behind both games because they... look similar.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this, something about SEGA games not having enough manpower on their dev teams to make the games that SEGA wants to sell.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, azoo said:

That's why I said "or at least somewhere between the two". It'd definitely need bigger maps than Odyssey to accommodate for how Sonic even a slow day goes double Mario's speed, but the game definitely doesn't have to be anywhere as big as Frontiers wants to be to make use of Sonic running free in an open space.

Personally I don't think anything has to change about how fast Sonic currently moves, besides momentum-related fixes (retaining speed into a jump, more exaggerated rolling physics, stronger aversity to moving uphill and a little more push downhill). Hell, I imagine you could even use the "Action Mode" speed as the base and it'd work fine, considering you add/fix the above. 

I'm not too sure about that because Sonic covers a lot ground with the power boost on; it takes less than a minute to get from one half of the map to another. So if you scale down the levels even more than that, Sonic will just blaze everything in a manner of seconds. 

I do agree that the level scope should be parred down, but to what degree is the issue. As mentioned, last time they tried that we got Lost World where Sonic moves dreadfully slow even when pressing the run button.