News Sonic Frontiers Trailer

[Diogenes]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Now that I've thought about it, 06 didn't have many Sonic staples either did it? Stuff like springs and loops were somewhat scarce compared to other games.

Nah I think it had about as many as usual. Very first part of Wave Ocean is like 6 dash pads pushing you through a loop, and there's another loop soon afterwards.

[Shiny Gems]

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Typo.

And are we really don't this? To say "it doesn't look like a Sonic game yet" it's the same as saying "it doesn't look like a Sonic game because we've not seen everything". That's a disclaimer, because you're providing a way out. Its also just implied, based on everything I said, that we don't yet know everything this game has.

Does Sonic Frontiers look like a Sonic game? Based on the information that we have, no. Can't say anything more than that. I'm not going to hedge my bets on that changing with time or not. I'm not saying that it will or won't look more like a Sonic game in the future. My comment is neutral. 

I never had anything against your opinion nor your comment. In fact, note that what I initially said was not aimed at you. But now I see where you are going with this disclaimer thing, and allow me to disagree. This is not one of those if you have seen one thing, you have seen it all kind of thing, if that is what you are implying. I think you are just saying that as a refusal to see what I am trying to say.

Now, let us move on before we go too deep into this, okay?

[azoo]

14 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Now that I've thought about it, 06 didn't have many Sonic staples either did it? Stuff like springs and loops were somewhat scarce compared to other games.

I'd actually argue the opposite, lol. 06 had more springs (and dashpads) than most Sonic games, quite infamously even. And there were several loops in every level, all about as big as a skyscraper.

If I saw stuff like that in this map I'd be like "ah yeah this looks about right", but either there isn't any or they're holding their punches until there's more to show. But that sounds like a pretty dumb or weird thing to hold back on, doesn't it? Why would they not show that in a Sonic trailer?

[Scar]

Unleashed still looks incredible today, because it hit the balance of cartoony and realistic just right. 

The really warm and stark lighting made everything seem...I guess...hyperrealistic due to the bright saturated colours and high contrast. And as BlueBlood mentioned the slightly softer textures rounded it off nicely. To me its the most natural evolution from S3&K.

I don't dislike Frontiers' direction. I need to see more to judge fully, but again as BlueBlood correctly points out, there are a lack of features that are identifiably "Sonic". That having been said, I do like that the environment at the very least undulates and isn't just a bunch of flat land with random ramps and loops thrown in. The terrain feels more natural, which is part of Sonic's charm. What it needs on top of this, are the "Sonic" elements to tie it all together. Some structures that act as ramps, some strange terrain geometry which build into loops and ramps etc.

Love the ruins. Love me a good ruin level. Just needs a bit more.

[Wraith]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Now that I've thought about it, 06 didn't have many Sonic staples either did it? Stuff like springs and loops were somewhat scarce compared to other games.

 

Sonic's aesthetic has changed so many times over the years that I'm not really surprised that people can argue about how much a Sonic game this is supposed to be.

 

It feels very similar to Super Mario Odyssey and locals like New Donk City and the Ruin Dragon. Except Mario's had a more consistent aesthetic for decades and it the change isn't played straight compared to when Sonic does it.

They're there, but they look more like natural structures that just happen to line up in ways that Sonic can use, so they blend in a bit more. Frontiers hasn't even given us that yet. 
 

 

 

 

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Scar said:

Unleashed still looks incredible today, because it hit the balance of cartoony and realistic just right. 

The really warm and stark lighting made everything seem...I guess...hyperrealistic due to the bright saturated colours and high contrast. And as BlueBlood mentioned the slightly softer textures rounded it off nicely. To me its the most natural evolution from S3&K.

I don't dislike Frontiers' direction. I need to see more to judge fully, but again as BlueBlood correctly points out, there are a lack of features that are identifiably "Sonic". That having been said, I do like that the environment at the very least undulates and isn't just a bunch of flat land with random ramps and loops thrown in. The terrain feels more natural, which is part of Sonic's charm. What it needs on top of this, are the "Sonic" elements to tie it all together. Some structures that act as ramps, some strange terrain geometry which build into loops and ramps etc.

Love the ruins. Love me a good ruin level. Just needs a bit more.

So, that what Blue Blood was saying? Oh, I must have misread to an extent.

[PickleBrows]

I do think part of the issue will be remedied, even slightly, once we actually have rings, springs crates etc filling out the land a bit. 

I'm actually really curious about the loops and corkscrews thing. If they're emphasising freedom, and have a moveset to match, then my hope is they've settled on a solution they're happy with to make them non-automated. Recent fan engines have shown it's plenty possible but I'm curious if Sonic Team have been willing to tackle it too.

I personally haven't really given a hoot about loops in 3D Sonic games outside of some of the giant ones in Heroes where the camera follows you through them while your acceleration goes through the roof. In the boost games especially there's no sense of speed to them, Sonic's speed feels completely flat from entering the loop to leaving it. 

I'd love to see them in Frontiers but I'll happily live without them if we'd be going back to a dash panel in front of every single one. Atm I care far more about having a proper sense of momentum and speed while barrelling through dense forests, cliffsides, beaches etc. Definitely hoping for some good sloping terrain to mess around with.

[Wraith]

On the contrary, I've actually never played a fangame with a non-automated loop or corkscrew that felt good and I don't see a way to make it work. I want to see dashpads lined all the way up those things if they come back.

[Shiny Gems]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

On the contrary, I've actually never played a fangame with a non-automated loop or corkscrew that felt good and I don't see a way to make it work. I want to see dashpads lined all the way up those things if they come back.

I kinda had ideas on how to make the loops more interactive in Sonic games. Not completely, but still. Basically, when you are in the , you must hold the control stick in the direction you want to go to maintain Sonic's movement. Even if it seems automated, when you enter and leave the loop, you must build up momentum to get through the loop in the first place and you may have it when Sonic leaves the loop if you keep tilting the control stick. The camera does not even need to follow Sonic through the loop even, if you know what I mean.

Of course, I am not Sonic Team, so this is most likely to not happen in Frontiers in the loops, if there are any at all. Still, if there are any loops, I wonder if you would be able to go through them and even go back the way you came in the opposite direction through them if you wished? This is open world, after all.

[Razule]

From what we've seen so far, Frontiers' world is most comparable to a really big Adventure Field. If the hub worlds of Adventure, 06, and Unleashed were remade today with modern graphics they'd probably look similarly un-Sonic. But they're only hubs to get you from level to level. 06's were large and there were town missions, but you won't spend most of the game in them unless you're doing all the non-mandatory missions (or get lost).

The Open-Zone of Frontiers is the selling point of the game. I can only assume the part they're most proud of. I'm sure there's going to be rings, dash pads, and springs lying around, but it's never been the case that without those things the stage looks unrecognizable as a game that Sonic is playable in. I'm aware the cyber-space stages exist (even though we aren't supposed to be) and it's possible the contrast is intentional, but I gotta question the decision to proudly declare the Starfall Islands an open-zone adventure and not design them to look like zones.

[PickleBrows]

9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

On the contrary, I've actually never played a fangame with a non-automated loop or corkscrew that felt good and I don't see a way to make it work. I want to see dashpads lined all the way up those things if they come back.

I think the best ones I've seen in fan games are where the make the loops widen to help compensate for any side-to-side wiggling from the player. 

I do think it'd be possible to have a light bit of path splining on the loop to help straighten you if you enter the loop with a certain amount of speed without literally making it automated or binary.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the loops being a bit more challenging to use as long as it doesn't enter frustration territory. Especially in this open-world setting where you'd theoretically be able to bypass a loop entirely, it makes sense that loops would be something you'd use for fun to show off with your speed but are required to have some level of precision to navigate them.

[Wraith]

I'm all for interactive level design but loops were never meant to be super interactive in the first place. They were always about spectacle first so I don't see the point in stressing over it too much. Feels like missing the forest for the trees(how Sonic controls overall.)

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I'm all for interactive level design but loops were never meant to be super interactive in the first place. They were always about spectacle first so I don't see the point in stressing over it too much. Feels like missing the forest for the trees(how Sonic controls overall.)

Hey, I just wanted to share an idea of mine. I know they are more so about flair, and I would not be surprised if they don't show up in Sonic Frontiers at all. Just wanted to add some of my two cents.

[Blue Blood]

9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm all for interactive level design but loops were never meant to be super interactive in the first place. They were always about spectacle first so I don't see the point in stressing over it too much. Feels like missing the forest for the trees(how Sonic controls overall.)

Whilst a lot of fan games haven't gotten it right, I still yearn for the day when loops can be implemented in a way that feels natural. All it really requires is a spline guides Sonic around them, so that you don't have to worry about 3D movement. And the thing is, all of the 3D games used these in loops already, but they typically also have further scripting (either invisible or dash panels or both) that automatically makes Sonic accelerate to a certain speed as he approaches.  It's just not necessary and totally kills the feeling of organic movement. 

[Razule]

27 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm all for interactive level design but loops were never meant to be super interactive in the first place. They were always about spectacle first so I don't see the point in stressing over it too much. Feels like missing the forest for the trees(how Sonic controls overall.)

They weren't just spectacle in the classics, but they became that the further they moved away from momentum. That they were apparently so unimportant that removing won't change much is a symptom of a larger probem.

[Diogenes]

14 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'm all for interactive level design but loops were never meant to be super interactive in the first place. They were always about spectacle first so I don't see the point in stressing over it too much. Feels like missing the forest for the trees(how Sonic controls overall.)

They were at least spectacle based on the same physics and controls that powered the majority of the game, rather than special cases where the game took control away to do something that only looked cool but wasn't really playing the game.

That said lately I feel more and more like loops just aren't suited to 3D gameplay, there's just no good camera angle for them, and if they ever actually want to make a game about the freedom and thrill of Sonic's movement it would probably be better to retire them and focus on level design that isn't a complete ballache to play through and design around.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

They were at least spectacle based on the same physics and controls that powered the majority of the game, rather than special cases where the game took control away to do something that only looked cool but wasn't really playing the game.

That said lately I feel more and more like loops just aren't suited to 3D gameplay, there's just no good camera angle for them, and if they ever actually want to make a game about the freedom and thrill of Sonic's movement it would probably be better to retire them and focus on level design that isn't a complete ballache to play through and design around.

Well, you are not wrong about one thing: It IS possible to do a Sonic game without loops.

I mean, look at the fan game, Sonic Robo Blast 2, especially the latest versions. It has slopes, but no loops. Yet it is a pretty well liked game from what I remember.

My point though is that if they want to do a Sonic game without loops, they could just add lots of slopes and if they use momentum physics, they could have Sonic use his momentum to use those slopes to get to higher places. Walls for wall running could be done too. Still, no loops are really required to add in Sonic games, especially if running on walls or slopes can still be used via momentum to reach alternate paths.

[StaticMania]

If loops didn't end up being so giant in literally every game after Adventure 2, the camera angle City Escape gives you when you run through the one loop in that level would be fine for pretty much every time it happens.

Even the 2nd  loop in Emerald Coast gives you that one far shot at an angle so you can see Sonic go through it...but maybe that wouldn't work every time.

Every game after SA2 treats loops like the one from Green Forest where the camera just always follows behind you going through it because it's so big, but SA2 has a variety of angles...that work, in City Escape, Metal Harbor, and Pyramid Cave.

[Razule]

If how Sonic controls and how his levels are designed are too difficult to do in 3D, then maybe for this game they should go all the way in redefining Sonic. Give him a horse to keep his movements grounded. His spinning is just a hold-over from his outdated pinball gameplay from the classics, so instead of that, hand-to-hand combat and weapons for fighting enemies.

[McGroose]

Looking more at the environment footage, something I'm concerned with is how cramped a lot of things feel. Obviously this does not apply to the open fields, but there's a lot of footage of forests with little space between all the trees. Adventure made this work because Sonic controlled great in that game, but the Sonic games post since Heroes have never accommodated well for that. Either Sonic moves like a race car like in Unleashed barely suited for precision or he moves with precision but is annoyingly slow like in Lost World. There's hasn't been a Sonic game since Adventure 1&2 that really nailed the controls giving sonic both a sense of speed and precision without much difficulty for the player to get used to. No games has come close since.

I feel like Sega's really gonna have to nail the control in this game for it to be a seller. It's going to be awkward trying to move through some of these environments otherwise.

[___-_]

Regarding the little "loops in 3D Sonic games" discussion, I've always liked Sonic Utopia's / Project Hero's approach to them. Their loops looked naturally sized, weren't riddled with dash pads, barriers or anything to overcompensate for any short comings, and ultimately were all left to the player for them to figure how they can maintain their momentum to pass through. It felt really natural as you had to be aware of your speed going in AND out of them (a lost concept for sure), as well as your spacial awareness to properly stay on the platform as you're trying to gain more speed from them, unlike the official Sonic game offerings where you might as well just throw in those 2 black cinematic bars for a cutscene for you to watch since it practically plays entirely for themselves. The most "interactivity" you get from them are preventing a glitch from happening if you continue holding one direction... which sucks. I need something like Utopia / Hero for Frontiers to qualm my loop thirst. 

But yea, as for my thoughts on Frontiers... I'm interested. They ain't really show shit, but I'm interested. I'm assuming these big locals are like the "Station Square's / Mystic Ruins" of Frontiers where there weren't any Sonic themed landmarks to run around through until you get to the levels... but if that's the case, that's weird that they would do that since this game's clearly not limited in the same way those Dreamcast era hub worlds were. It's going to be a sorely missed opportunity even if they finally nailed Sonic's mobility in a fully 3D space if you can't even do shit in those gigantic spaces they want you to regularly run around in. I don't want "the good parts" to only be sectioned off to specific zoned off areas where you'll finally see the corkscrews / loops and whatnot (at least from what little that I've been hearing from the leaks and what the trailer suggests). I need the whole island Sonic's in to be "the good parts".

But we'll see what Sega's got cooking, I guess.

[Jango]

15 hours ago, Razule said:

If how Sonic controls and how his levels are designed are too difficult to do in 3D

Sonic Utopia exists. They made Sonic fun and exciting to play in 3D, with rolling, momentum and everything. The project got some flak because it lacks a proper objective, there's virtually nothing to go for while exploring the place, but exploring the place, which on itself is great, but obviously not enough to call it "a game", which of course was to be expected since it was a demo after all. Still, if we're talking only about Sonic's movement in 3D, we know it isn't impossible to achieve. After that, you'll have to give Sonic shit do to and advance the story. I could see something like Shadow of the Colossus being a good reference. The 7 Chaos Emeralds = 7 arenas with bosses or puzzles, scattered across the map. The Emeralds could be like beacons that you can see from anywhere in the map, you just gotta run towards it. Or maybe Sonic starts with 1 Emerald and that one points towards the others, like Wander's sword or even the Emerald radar from SA. 

Then done. You have good movement and objectives. Add a few scripted events in key parts to move the story and voilá. Shadow of the Hedgehog.

[Scar]

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

They were at least spectacle based on the same physics and controls that powered the majority of the game, rather than special cases where the game took control away to do something that only looked cool but wasn't really playing the game.

That said lately I feel more and more like loops just aren't suited to 3D gameplay, there's just no good camera angle for them, and if they ever actually want to make a game about the freedom and thrill of Sonic's movement it would probably be better to retire them and focus on level design that isn't a complete ballache to play through and design around.

A solution would be to have Sonic be visible through terrain. Like a blue shadow, so you can still position him in loops even if the camera is directly behind him during a loop. Would also make it easier to keep him under control at speed when rushing through environments.

[Razule]

3 hours ago, Jango said:

Sonic Utopia exists. They made Sonic fun and exciting to play in 3D, with rolling, momentum and everything. The project got some flak because it lacks a proper objective, there's virtually nothing to go for while exploring the place, but exploring the place, which on itself is great, but obviously not enough to call it "a game", which of course was to be expected since it was a demo after. Still, if we're talking only about Sonic's movement in 3D, we know it isn't impossible to achieve. After that, you'll have to give Sonic shit do to and advance the story. I could see something like Shadow of the Colossus being a good reference. The 7 Chaos Emeralds = 7 arenas with bosses or puzzles, scattered across the map. The Emeralds could be like beacons that you can see from anywhere in the map, you just gotta run towards it. Or maybe Sonic starts with 1 Emerald and that one points towards the others, like Wander's sword or even the Emerald radar from SA. 

Then done. You have good movement and objectives. Add a few scripted events in key parts to move the story and voilá. Shadow of the Hedgehog.

I agree. I've seen just about all the Sonic momentum sandbox showcases there are, and would still really like something be done with that idea officially. At this point though, I'm ready to start focusing on how this game could be good for what it is instead of what it could have been. If it's successful, it'll be the series' direction for the next decade. ..unless it isn't sustainable, or was always planned to be a one-off. 

[Razule]

https://magna-centipede.tumblr.com/post/670160940324601856/my-friend-wont-stop-saying-sonic-frontiers-and

I saw this post on Tumblr, and almost couldn't tell anything was changed. Or was there?