SEGA appeal to casuals and newcomers and ignore long-time fans way too much

[FloweringFox]

There needs to be a good balance of appealing to casuals and fans. There are choices they could make to achieve this rather than compromise the games' quality.

For example, instead of making games easier, add an easy mode. For complete beginners, there could be a beginner mode with a Tails save, and simpler level design. Easy mode, a simple level design with regular checkpoints and no Tails save. Normal mode with more complex design, and so on and so forth.

For stories, just do like Adventure 1, 2, or Unleashed with the tone and story style. They're one off games that can be understood without any context. 

Stick to that, while adding things like customization, good graphics, etc. and I think it'd make for a good balance for fans and newcomers alike.

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 minutes ago, FloweringFox said:

There needs to be a good balance of appealing to casuals and fans. There are choices they could make to achieve this rather than compromise the games' quality.

For example, instead of making games easier, add an easy mode. For complete beginners, there could be a beginner mode with a Tails save, and simpler level design. Easy mode, a simple level design with regular checkpoints and no Tails save. Normal mode with more complex design, and so on and so forth.

For stories, just do like Adventure 1, 2, or Unleashed with the tone and story style. They're one off games that can be understood without any context. 

Stick to that, while adding things like customization, good graphics, etc. and I think it'd make for a good balance for fans and newcomers alike.

Yeah, I never understood why they don't have a hard and easy mode for these games.  What I liked so much about the Adventure games is that you can do little side missions to get A rankings.  But, it's something that you can choose to do, rather than it being required.

[Kazhnuz]

Creating different difficulty settings with different level design add a lot of work, especially design and testing work. In general, there is no such thing as "just an option", different options and their combinations can add work kinda exponentially. It could be a nice idea, but it's not just a question of "why they didn't think about it", it's most often that they didn't see it as worth it, as it's a lot of work.

That's why in many games, the difficulty settings are basically just some fast "add more health to the ennemy, make the player receive twice damage", as it's easier to test (and even that need some careful testing, to be sure that you didn't make your game unplayable by moments).

(That's also why Celeste-like difficulty settings can sometimes be a bit hard to do, as we have a lot of combinations to test xD)

Edited June 14, 2021 by Kazhnuz
I've written "while" instead of why

[Blacklightning]

From what I recall of Sonic Heroes, they simply moved the goalposts to earlier in the level if you're playing as Team Rose. If ever they were to seriously humour the thought of difficulty settings, that's probably the simplest and most impactful decision they could act on, unless you're Mania and have acts stream right into one another. To the best of my memory though, they've never actually had a problem doubling up on the same stages with rearranged enemies and hazards and calling it Hard Mode. Just keep doing that.

That being said I would rather Sonic Team just learn what a difficulty curve is, and they've been on both opposite ends of the spectrum in that regard. Sometimes they'll fail to introduce mechanics or level quirks in safe spaces before testing the player on them which leads to relentlessly killing them over and over in later stages (Unleashed being the main case in point, among a few other notable examples), but the current trend seems to be more or less the difficulty equivalent of a dial tone that stays consistently bland through the whole game. And I don't think it should be controversial to suggest there's a distinct difference between making a game for the status quo, and making a game that goes nowhere and does nothing with the perceived excuse that they're doing it "for the kids", in spite of the fact that they're not stupid and will learn and adapt when given the tools to do so just like the rest of us.

[Wildcat]

I think one of the things that make the games seem too easy is their length. I thought Forces started to get challenging the last few stages but then you face the final boss and it’s over.

However looking back at the Genesis games, including Mania, it’s the same difference. The games are not terribly challenging and are pretty much on par with Colors, Generations and Forces in terms of difficulty.

I think the real issue is their length. This was fine in the 90s because the hardware wasn’t as powerful and most “challenge” came from the penalty of replaying after running out of lives.

Current games should be made to take advantage of modern hardware. Not just making 3D Genesis equivalents. That’s why the Adventures, Heroes, 06, Secret Rings, Unleashed and Lost World (to a point imo) we’re more “full filling”. Because they were bigger scale games that felt specifically made for THAT system.

I know all they all have side missions for 100%-ing but I’m talking about the main games from start to finish.

I think Rangers will be one of the bigger scale games. Not just because of the open-world leaks. It seems like they’re entering a new phase again.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

I think this happens to most franchises. They know new blood (fans) is essential tp keep the legend alive. However, what they miss is us old blood (fans) usually are the source of new blood, we introducing the Blur Blur to our children, nephews, and nieces. So with that said they shouldn’t forget us. Honestly, this 30th Anniversary Orchestra showed we aren’t forgotten.   

[Rabbitearsblog]

2 hours ago, Shadow Chaos Control said:

I think this happens to most franchises. They know new blood (fans) is essential tp keep the legend alive. However, what they miss is us old blood (fans) usually are the source of new blood, we introducing the Blur Blur to our children, nephews, and nieces. So with that said they shouldn’t forget us. Honestly, this 30th Anniversary Orchestra showed we aren’t forgotten.   

I agree.  This was the case when some Adventure fans were complaining about SEGA forgetting about the Adventure Era, when this concert showed us otherwise.

[Shadow Chaos Control]

16 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I agree.  This was the case when some Adventure fans were complaining about SEGA forgetting about the Adventure Era, when this concert showed us otherwise.

Exactly, the orchestra was a love letter to all gens of Sonic fans.  

[VO.SUPER]

Something I've noticed lately. All these mobile crossovers, the Sonic Colours bundle, and the recent vtuber announcement were all very Japan centric. In fact, I'd say this year has been SEGA's biggest push into the Japanese market in a long time. In a way, its their biggest casual push too, considering how little Japan usually gives a crap about Sonic.

Id say SEGA are probably going to push even harder with casual appeal over time if they are serious about claiming Japan. So I expect more crossovers and mobile focus. 

(Didn't really know where to put this random string of thoughts. And this was the closest thread for that. 

[Speedi]

1 hour ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Something I've noticed lately. All these mobile crossovers, the Sonic Colours bundle, and the recent vtuber announcement were all very Japan centric. In fact, I'd say this year has been SEGA's biggest push into the Japanese market in a long time. In a way, its their biggest casual push too, considering how little Japan usually gives a crap about Sonic.

Id say SEGA are probably going to push even harder with casual appeal over time if they are serious about claiming Japan. So I expect more crossovers and mobile focus. 

(Didn't really know where to put this random string of thoughts. And this was the closest thread for that. 

Hoshino specifically mentioned working with the Sonic studio in america to increase the number of fans back home in an interview. Wouldn't be surprised if Rangers' open world direction was directly influenced from games like BOTW and MH's casual/hardcore appeal.

[Johnster4]

7 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Something I've noticed lately. All these mobile crossovers, the Sonic Colours bundle, and the recent vtuber announcement were all very Japan centric. In fact, I'd say this year has been SEGA's biggest push into the Japanese market in a long time. In a way, its their biggest casual push too, considering how little Japan usually gives a crap about Sonic.

Id say SEGA are probably going to push even harder with casual appeal over time if they are serious about claiming Japan. So I expect more crossovers and mobile focus. 

(Didn't really know where to put this random string of thoughts. And this was the closest thread for that. 

I don't really mind appealing to casuals with mobile crossovers, since mobile gaming is a casual market in general, it's when they try and appeal to casuals through the mainline PC & console games that's what I mainly have an issue with, the PC & Console market should get and more deeper games in terms of gameplay, story telling and content in general.

[Sonikko]

Sonic's target demographic is the same one Mario games have, they're games for kids and families first and foremost, and that's completely fine.

The issue that comes into play is that Nintendo EAD is able to make Mario games with a very low skill floor and a decently high skill ceiling, which means that there's enjoyment to be had even if you're an adult, because of how deep you can dig into the game mechanics and, you know, make your own fun. On top of that, even the basic routes are mad fun to take in Mario games.

Sonic games go the opposite direction most of the time, trying to control the player experience from the first moment you take control in the game, which may help kids come to come to grasp the high speed action, but also lowers the skill ceiling significantly, which in return means the experience ends up being pretty underwhelming for people who are maybe a bit more experienced with games.

There's a balance to be found and Sonic Team very rarely has even attempted to do that. The Adventure games did it, the first one especially, but then they kinda dropped the ball right after that and went for a different approach, maybe because it's just easier to do that, and Sonic games are extremely expensive in general for how little money they do end up raking in.

Closest thing to Sonic that comes to mind, as far as game series go, is Kirby, but even then, Kirby still takes the layered design approach from Mario games, while still being easier than Mario games.

[Baldymcnosehair1999]

Who wants to bet rangers is going to have a colours-like basic story, with only sonic playble? I might, no i HOPE, i eat my words, but its such a sega thing to do.

My dream sonic game would have one thing that would instanly make it the best sonic game ever:

 

SCRATCH AND GROUNDER JUST PLEASE BRING THEM BACK SEGA IM LITRALLY ON MY KNEES TYPING THIS

[VO.SUPER]

2 hours ago, Sonikko said:

Sonic's target demographic is the same one Mario games have, they're games for kids and families first and foremost, and that's completely fine.

The issue that comes into play is that Nintendo EAD is able to make Mario games with a very low skill floor and a decently high skill ceiling, which means that there's enjoyment to be had even if you're an adult, because of how deep you can dig into the game mechanics and, you know, make your own fun. On top of that, even the basic routes are mad fun to take in Mario games.

Sonic games go the opposite direction most of the time, trying to control the player experience from the first moment you take control in the game, which may help kids come to come to grasp the high speed action, but also lowers the skill ceiling significantly, which in return means the experience ends up being pretty underwhelming for people who are maybe a bit more experienced with games.

There's a balance to be found and Sonic Team very rarely has even attempted to do that. The Adventure games did it, the first one especially, but then they kinda dropped the ball right after that and went for a different approach, maybe because it's just easier to do that, and Sonic games are extremely expensive in general for how little money they do end up raking in.

Closest thing to Sonic that comes to mind, as far as game series go, is Kirby, but even then, Kirby still takes the layered design approach from Mario games, while still being easier than Mario games.

Wasn't Lost World one of the most brutal Sonic games to come out in recent memory? I seem to recall everyone getting quite frustrated with the difficulty curve in the latter half of the game. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

I'm confused.

Weren't most of you here once 6-11 years old, likely when you first got into Sonic? I'm sure many of you started with Sonic Adventure 2. Was that game not designed to appeal to the kids of that time? I was in a slightly older bracket in 2001 and...um....we weren't really the target. I was probably one of the few among my peers that still obsessed over Sonic to the degree that I did. The rest were focused more on appealing to the opposite sex and staying out as late as possible lol.

I don't think anything different here is happening, some of you have just gotten old and not realized it. You're catching up to the boomers. Others among you have. Come.... join the rest of us here in the retirement home, where we reminisce over the days SEGA used to pay attention to us.

 

....and okay, Sure, Mania got some attention but the classic games are always going to get some nod, for better or worse, and that should surprise no one. Kids also liked Mania but thats not why it was made. I think if Sonic had a string of massive hits, both commercially and critically, in later games, SEGA wouldn't do as many callbacks to the classic games. They have no choice until they make their mark with something else. Hopefully they find their success in the future.

 

 

[Meta77]

8 hours ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

I'm confused.

Weren't most of you here once 6-11 years old, likely when you first got into Sonic? I'm sure many of you started with Sonic Adventure 2. Was that game not designed to appeal to the kids of that time? I was in a slightly older bracket in 2001 and...um....we weren't really the target. I was probably one of the few among my peers that still obsessed over Sonic to the degree that I did. The rest were focused more on appealing to the opposite sex and staying out as late as possible lol.

I don't think anything different here is happening, some of you have just gotten old and not realized it. You're catching up to the boomers. Others among you have. Come.... join the rest of us here in the retirement home, where we reminisce over the days SEGA used to pay attention to us.

 

....and okay, Sure, Mania got some attention but the classic games are always going to get some nod, for better or worse, and that should surprise no one. Kids also liked Mania but thats not why it was made. I think if Sonic had a string of massive hits, both commercially and critically, in later games, SEGA wouldn't do as many callbacks to the classic games. They have no choice until they make their mark with something else. Hopefully they find their success in the future.

 

 

Nah i started in 91 But Adventure was not for kids. it was id say a middle ground. Adventure was more in your face than in the past at this point and all about being extreme and cool. The story was also not a typical Saturday kid take.  And adventure 2 more so.

[Johnster4]

The following is from the Sonic Origins steam page

Quote

Classic and Anniversary Mode
Choose to Spin Dash your way through the numerous zones in Classic mode with the game's original resolution and limited lives, or the new Anniversary mode with unlimited lives and revamped full screen resolution.

 

The no lives system is not the main issue I have with the anniversary mode, what I do have an issue with is that they don't seem to give the choice to have both lives and widescreen at the same time. To me it seems like a bad idea punishing those who want lives with arbitrary restrictions.

[BubbleButt TV]

On 6/6/2021 at 3:28 PM, Johnster4 said:

 the quality of the writing and storytelling has been subpar, (I only hope that they get Iann Flynn to do the script for the 2022 project),

 

wow looks like you got your wish

[Legendary Emerald]

18 hours ago, Johnster4 said:

The following is from the Sonic Origins steam page

 

The no lives system is not the main issue I have with the anniversary mode, what I do have an issue with is that they don't seem to give the choice to have both lives and widescreen at the same time. To me it seems like a bad idea punishing those who want lives with arbitrary restrictions.

I don’t think I’ve been in danger of getting a true, no-continue game-over in any of these games for the last ten years. I expect most people who’ve been playing the games this many years are in the same boat. This effectively changes nothing about the difficulty for us and offers an extra, hopefully worthwhile, reason to collect all the rings and bonuses that we used to.

[PaddyFancy]

I can bet (Boomer) Mike Matei will be spinning in his cave about the removal of the lives system in anniversary mode.

[light-gaia]

I don't think the issue with storytelling was Sega ignoring long-time fans. The issue was the bad writers and Sega probably having no idea what kind of stories could work in a Sonic game. Because I don't see people from any generation saying they enjoy Sonic Lost World's and Sonic Forces' stories, their stories don't appeal to newcomers fans. People who like theses games usually don't play them because of the stories.

Furthermore, I don't think Sonic Lost World's story is bad because it's light-hearted. It's possible to make good, light-hearted stories with funny jokes. The movie franchise is an example.

Edited April 21, 2022 by light-gaia
Grammar checking

[sassytassie]

This! As a 29 year old who has been a fan since the age of 5, these new games just aren’t appealing to me. They’re definitely geared towards newer, much younger fans. Yes, they are putting out remasters of the classics we grew up with, but besides Mania it’s not enough for me. I would absolutely die for an Adventure style game with a darker story like (SA2).

[Johnster4]

On 4/21/2022 at 4:11 PM, Legendary Emerald said:

I don’t think I’ve been in danger of getting a true, no-continue game-over in any of these games for the last ten years. I expect most people who’ve been playing the games this many years are in the same boat. This effectively changes nothing about the difficulty for us and offers an extra, hopefully worthwhile, reason to collect all the rings and bonuses that we used to.

That is a valid point, however even if we were skilled enough I would still want to have the option to have both lives and widescreen support, especially when Sonic 1,2, and CD have both.