At this point, what is keeping other characters from being playable in the main modern Sonic games?

[StaticMania]

DB's Earth doesn't work like that.

And animal people don't exist anymore outside of Spin-offs if you're going off Z specifically.

[Kuzu]

10 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

No, that same crowd is still around. There’s just a lot more entertainment out there than before for them to invest in than just Sonic, but ask the same question and you’re likely to get the similar responses now as back then.

If anything, they’re just not using gameplay as an excuse, but it’s still the same favoritism toward certain cast or just outright spite at work that extends even to non-game Sonic media.

I highly doubt anyone would invest that much thought when they have other games to play as you said. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

3 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I highly doubt anyone would invest that much thought when they have other games to play as you said. 

Well, you’d be surprised.
 

Just because they have other games to play doesn’t mean they’ve changed their views on the subject of the other Sonic characters.

[Jango]

Just now, StaticMania said:

DB's Earth doesn't work like that.

And animal people don't exist anymore outside of Spin-offs if you're going off Z specifically.

How exactly it doesn't? They call it Earth, but they never refer to real places, cities and what-not. The same goes for Sonic. As for the animal people, it was just an example. DB has dinos even.

 

[Shadowlax]

28 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

DB's Earth doesn't work like that.

And animal people don't exist anymore outside of Spin-offs if you're going off Z specifically.

Fun fact in dbz kakorot the new game. Explained that most of the animal people were actually humans on some sort of drug. It was a huge fad. There are mystical animals like korin, Belarus, oolong, and folks of the like.  But apparently it was just people going through a furry phase

25 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I highly doubt anyone would invest that much thought when they have other games to play as you said. 

Nah, folks hold on to shit. I know you are trying to come upon this rationally. And there are a lot of people who's disdain has turned to apathy. But it ain't everyone, buncha folks dont like a thing and hold on to that.

 

That said I still think they dont largely matter. I dont think that group was buying 3d sonic games anyway and the success those games saw were a different demographic. So they exist they should much like other types of fan need different products to cater to them.

It would be really awful if sega thought that was their money market and in doing so fucked up their other markets in pursuit of what any other company would call a speciality demographic. That would be dumb.

 

[StaticMania]

32 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Explained that most of the animal people were actually humans on some sort of drug. It was a huge fad. There are mystical animals like korin, Belarus, oolong, and folks of the like.  But apparently it was just people going through a furry phase

I was referring to that as well, because they're still in the game after that and it's spin-off.

And while that is probably one of the factoids Toriyama himself had written...it's just explaining why he stopped drawing them in the manga.

[Scritch the Cat]

3 hours ago, Jango said:

This two-worlds thing... I Iike to think it works like DBZ. It is Earth... Just not our Earth. There are regular humans and anthropomorphic creatures in Sonic's Earth. There's locations that resemble our Earth, like Empire City (New York City, US), Apotos (Mykonos, Greece), and who can forget City Escape, which is just San Francisco US?

 It works almost as a parody.

That’s what people used to assume, but based on leaks, it’s not SEGA’s formula.

[Multikaris]

Sonic Team actually kept their word concerning other characters not returning until they perfected the gameplay: they were forced to regress to Boost after Lost World. With this set as their idea of “perfect” gameplay, they brought Shadow back. This is also why SLW didn’t have any alternate playable characters of any sort (unless you count the co-op gadgets or bonus stages), just gimmick stages.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

I was referring to that as well, because they're still in the game after that and it's spin-off.

And while that is probably one of the factoids Toriyama himself had written...it's just explaining why he stopped drawing them in the manga.

I just wanted to mention it because its just a weird ass hell explanation.

[Kuzu]

2 hours ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Well, you’d be surprised.
 

Just because they have other games to play doesn’t mean they’ve changed their views on the subject of the other Sonic characters.

And your sources for this are tangible I'm assuming.

I'm not saying you're a liar, but even just general browsing, I don't see this anywhere near as much as before.

 

Even if I did believe that was true though, I fail to see why they even matter anymore. They got what they wanted in the end, so what else is there to gain from continuing this stance?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

43 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And your sources for this are tangible I'm assuming.

I'm not saying you're a liar, but even just general browsing, I don't see this anywhere near as much as before.

 

Even if I did believe that was true though, I fail to see why they even matter anymore. They got what they wanted in the end, so what else is there to gain from continuing this stance?

Well, on these forums alone we’ve seen firestorm reactions to non-game characters from the Archie comics and the different treatment of non-game characters from IDW for one example. Another example on these forums at least a year ago when someone brought up the idea of Shadow and Silver being in Mania, the idea was met with derision. 
 

Outside these forums, I doubt it’s any different. For the most part, It’s mostly anecdotal—not so much tangible than it is observable. Ask same questions regarding the Sonic characters and I doubt you’ll see a big difference in responses as they were years ago. If you do, then I’ll be shocked.

But despite them essentially getting what they want, now they’re determined to keep it that way, hence why the sentiment still lingers—even with the string of Sonic-only games proving that the characters aren’t the problem, they still don’t want them showing up largely out of spite.

[Iko]

I'm not sure why they don't put playable characters in the main games anymore, probably it's mostly lack of confidence... in fact, they do, they put Werehog, classic Sonic, the avatar... the problem is that they don't use Sonic's enstabilished friends, they use some random exploits to put different gameplay/variations without actually using the character we expect.

Probably they just fear the backlash of getting it wrong.

By the way, if playable characters have to return (something that I would like to happen), I hope they don't shoehorn all of them in the story for no reason like they did with Generations (kinda justified by the birthday party but kinda weird anyway) and (especially) Forces. I hope they do what they did in Sonic Adventure 2, were you can play as Chaos and Tikal, just not in the main story.

Make a separate mode, an "arcade mode", something like that shuttle in Sonic Colors (one of the best things in the game IMO), and let me choice the character I want before starting the playthrough. It doesn't have to make sense story-wise.

[Kuzu]

51 minutes ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

Well, on these forums alone we’ve seen firestorm reactions to non-game characters from the Archie comics and the different treatment of non-game characters from IDW for one example. Another example on these forums at least a year ago when someone brought up the idea of Shadow and Silver being in Mania, the idea was met with derision. 
 

Outside these forums, I doubt it’s any different. For the most part, It’s mostly anecdotal—not so much tangible than it is observable. Ask same questions regarding the Sonic characters and I doubt you’ll see a big difference in responses as they were years ago. If you do, then I’ll be shocked.

But despite them essentially getting what they want, now they’re determined to keep it that way, hence why the sentiment still lingers—even with the string of Sonic-only games proving that the characters aren’t the problem, they still don’t want them showing up largely out of spite.

I still can't see it for the life of me. Even the examples you stated are somewhat anecdotal since this site is a cesspool of different demographics that want entirely different things out of the series.

Beyond this forum, outside of the ironic shitposter or two, there's really nothing but apathy for this series in terms of that.

I know that we like to feel like that we're some oppressed fandom and how everyone is out to get us, but generally speaking people have moved on since shitting on Sonic has become a discredited trend at this point, and the people who do it are likely in their teenaged years. Most adult gamers just...don't care.

And if it's a bunch of immature teenagers that are saying this shit...why should I or Sega give a shit about them?

[DabigRG]

14 hours ago, Almar said:

The art showing Camelot's history shows Arthur as human looking too even if he was created by Merlin. And yeah, "Eggman" was there in Secret Rings yeah.

Hey, you're the one blurring the lines, dud. 

(The what?)

Quote

And how did that tribe do the world jumping? None of Truth of 50 Years Ago mentions world travel either (of course it's already been retconned since it says Shadow's immortality comes from Chaos Drives).

Oh really?

 

6 hours ago, Jango said:

This two-worlds thing... I Iike to think it works like DBZ. It is Earth... Just not our Earth. There are regular humans and anthropomorphic creatures in Sonic's Earth. There's locations that resemble our Earth, like Empire City (New York City, US), Apotos (Mykonos, Greece), and who can forget City Escape, which is just San Francisco US?

 It works almost as a parody.

Uh, not a bad comparison.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I still can't see it for the life of me. Even the examples you stated are somewhat anecdotal since this site is a cesspool of different demographics that want entirely different things out of the series.

Beyond this forum, outside of the ironic shitposter or two, there's really nothing but apathy for this series in terms of that.

I know that we like to feel like that we're some oppressed fandom and how everyone is out to get us, but generally speaking people have moved on since shitting on Sonic has become a discredited trend at this point, and the people who do it are likely in their teenaged years. Most adult gamers just...don't care.

And if it's a bunch of immature teenagers that are saying this shit...why should I or Sega give a shit about them?

Yeah, that’s the other thing—it usually dies down when there’s a dearth of Sonic media, the upcoming movie notwithstanding. You remember when Unleashed and Colors came about without the extended cast people couldn’t complain about the characters, but then came Generations which brought them back in the most minor role possible and we had a number of people and critics cherry-picking at their presence in the game? This trend of bashing the characters had been a dead horse several years after 06, and yet people still took every opportunity they got to trash them for old times sake. So I’d say wait until (or rather if) we get another game that has playable characters beyond Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles and then see whether that’s not the case anymore, because I highly doubt they won’t fuss about it because “it’s Shadow, and he sucks with everything past 1995.”

And provided you want these characters to be playable, you should give a shit mainly because this misguided backlash was, and still is the primary reason why Sega’s keen on playing things safe and not bringing them back even a decade after they’ve been sidelined and still having problems. Sega gives a shit because that megaphone blast on the internet and spreads the reception, whether or not it’s true. And we’ve seen it enough times to know that.

[DabigRG]

4 hours ago, StaticMania said:

DB's Earth doesn't work like that.

And animal people don't exist anymore outside of Spin-offs if you're going off Z specifically.

Didn't the King of Earth show up during the Cell Games?

Also, Oolong and Puar.

4 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

Fun fact in dbz kakorot the new game. Explained that most of the animal people were actually humans on some sort of drug. It was a huge fad. There are mystical animals like korin, Belarus, oolong, and folks of the like.  But apparently it was just people going through a furry phase

 

 

I'm sorry, wtf?

Who's Belarus?

[StaticMania]

Just now, DabigRG said:

Didn't the King of Earth show up during the Cell Games?

Also, Oolong and Puar.

Yes, because those 2 are part of the cast.

And yes, because King Furry is a continuity thing.

[DabigRG]

3 hours ago, Scritch the Cat said:

That’s what people used to assume, but based on leaks, it’s not SEGA’s formula.

What leaks?

3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

Sonic Team actually kept their word concerning other characters not returning until they perfected the gameplay: they were forced to regress to Boost after Lost World.

Pretty much.

3 hours ago, Miragnarok said:

This is also why SLW didn’t have any alternate playable characters of any sort (unless you count the co-op gadgets), just gimmick stages.

And Tails, Orbot, and Cubot's head.

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 Another example on these forums at least a year ago when someone brought up the idea of Shadow and Silver being in Mania, the idea was met with derision. 
 

 

Probably because they don't really belong there.

1 hour ago, Iko said:

By the way, if playable characters have to return (something that I would like to happen), I hope they don't shoehorn all of them in the story for no reason like they did with Generations (kinda justified by the birthday party but kinda weird anyway) and (especially) Forces. I hope they do what they did in Sonic Adventure 2, were you can play as Chaos and Tikal, just not in the main story.

Make a separate mode, an "arcade mode", something like that shuttle in Sonic Colors (one of the best things in the game IMO), and let me choice the character I want before starting the playthrough. It doesn't have to make sense story-wise.

This would be cool.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Didn't the King of Earth show up during the Cell Games?

Also, Oolong and Puar.

I'm sorry, wtf?

Who's Belarus?

Type on phone meant beerus

And yeah that's the explanation given

1 hour ago, DabigRG said:

Probably because they don't really belong there.

 

You are proving the point though

[DabigRG]

7 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Type on phone meant beerus

And yeah that's the explanation given

Man, what an odd thing to explain.

Beerus is an alien turned diety, though.

Quote

You are proving the point though

Am I?

Mania takes place after 3&K, but seemingly before any Adventure era stuff, so the tonally disparate Shadow is out.

Silver might work a little better in spirit, but the gameplay is a different story.

[Wraith]

 

1 hour ago, Conquering Storm’s Servant said:

 

And provided you want these characters to be playable, you should give a shit mainly because this misguided backlash was, and still is the primary reason why Sega’s keen on playing things safe and not bringing them back even a decade after they’ve been sidelined and still having problems. Sega gives a shit because that megaphone blast on the internet and spreads the reception, whether or not it’s true. And we’ve seen it enough times to know that.

They shouldn't care about what these people have to say, though. There's not a whole lot to be done when the people in charge don't know how to take criticism. I shut down a lot of bad criticism for the sake of it, but SEGA should have the common sense to identify it for themselves regardless of whether I care to get involved or not. Bad criticism is everywhere on the internet and I can think of very few franchises that have actually been crippled by it the way Sonic has. We can't be expected to put out all the fires. 

[Kuzu]

35 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

They shouldn't care about what these people have to say, though. There's not a whole lot to be done when the people in charge don't know how to take criticism. I shut down a lot of bad criticism for the sake of it, but SEGA should have the common sense to identify it for themselves regardless of whether I care to get involved or not. Bad criticism is everywhere on the internet and I can think of very few franchises that have actually been crippled by it the way Sonic has. We can't be expected to put out all the fires. 

This is the most damning thing of all; it really doesn't matter what we say or do if Sega just listen to whoever just happens to be speaking the loudest, and can't discern genuine criticism from people who are obviously just following a bandwagon. If Sega are just going to follow these complaints and apply the most extreme solutions imaginable, what can we actually do about that? At that point, it's not even our problem anymore. 

[Shadowlax]

50 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Man, what an odd thing to explain.

Beerus is an alien turned diety, though.

Am I?

Mania takes place after 3&K, but seemingly before any Adventure era stuff, so the tonally disparate Shadow is out.

Silver might work a little better in spirit, but the gameplay is a different story.

It's a different world now. Alt versions exist in this universe would be a fairly simple explanation.

46 minutes ago, Wraith said:

 

They shouldn't care about what these people have to say, though. There's not a whole lot to be done when the people in charge don't know how to take criticism. I shut down a lot of bad criticism for the sake of it, but SEGA should have the common sense to identify it for themselves regardless of whether I care to get involved or not. Bad criticism is everywhere on the internet and I can think of very few franchises that have actually been crippled by it the way Sonic has. We can't be expected to put out all the fires. 

You shouldn't have been any of the work. A company of that size dealing with a brand should have market research. And from what I understand they kinda do have that and sometimes just dont listen. I hate the narrative sometimes touted in sonic discussion that we need to come together and tell then what we want. No, that's what you pay people for, you shouldn't be doing it for free with no insurance. This isn't mentioning sonic has different demos that just wont come together. The narrative we need to put out the fire is flawed.

 

13 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

This is the most damning thing of all; it really doesn't matter what we say or do if Sega just listen to whoever just happens to be speaking the loudest, and can't discern genuine criticism from people who are obviously just following a bandwagon. If Sega are just going to follow these complaints and apply the most extreme solutions imaginable, what can we actually do about that? At that point, it's not even our problem anymore. 

1) like many people seem to be doing as of late, leave the fandom.

2) like many folks these days , pick up some books invest some money and time. Learn how to make games, maybe one day make your own sonic in 3d.

3) wait for some indie dev to start making ps2 era platformers and hopefully has some sonic inspiration.

4) keep yelling in Hope's eventually someone whips the sonic slate clean, possibly a reboot, with new staff and new people overseeing it, to actually do fucking market research

[Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

You shouldn't have been any of the work. A company of that size dealing with a brand should have market research. And from what I understand they kinda do have that and sometimes just dont listen. I hate the narrative sometimes touted in sonic discussion that we need to come together and tell then what we want. No, that's what you pay people for, you shouldn't be doing it for free with no insurance. This isn't mentioning sonic has different demos that just wont come together. The narrative we need to put out the fire is flawed.

 

 

I mean, yeah pretty much. The only other genre where I see this problem is fighting games which at least justify it by being risky financially. Sonic was actually better off financially when it wasn't trying to please everybody vs now. There weren't a lot of reasons for them to start bending over backwards in the first place.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I mean, yeah pretty much. The only other genre where I see this problem is fighting games which at least justify it by being risky financially. Sonic was actually better off financially when it wasn't trying to please everybody vs now. There weren't a lot of reasons for them to start bending over backwards in the first place.

In Sonic Forces, they were technically bending over forward, but with no room to stand up straight.