At this point, what is keeping other characters from being playable in the main modern Sonic games?

[StaticMania]

I mean...in a game based on player reaction you'd think they'd use both.

Or is that too much?

It's not too much.

[Tarnish]

12 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

I mean...in a game based on player reaction you'd think they'd use both.

Or is that too much?

It's not too much.

If sliding really must be an ability, I'd use it for something a bit more creative. Like splashing water forward, ahead of the character when running across a puddle. Say there is wall of fire across the path ahead that Sonic can't jump over, but there's a water puddle on one side of the path in front of it. By sliding across it, the splashed forward water puts it out long enough for Sonic to quickly run through it after stopping the slide.

[Scritch the Cat]

For my money I don’t know why Sonic didn’t just keep his ducking in 3D, and have it become a somersault if he ducks while he’s moving or a spindash if he jumps when he’s ducking.  Speedy games just work so much better when more functions can be tied to less buttons.

[Tarnish]

8 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

For my money I don’t know why Sonic didn’t just keep his ducking in 3D

I "love" how when you press the 'ground slam' button when standing still in Generations, he goes into a crouching position. It serves absolutely no purpose, but hey...at least it's there.

11 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

have it become a somersault

I never liked the somersault, even in Adventure 2, it felt like a stupid mechanic that just got in the way most of the time than not. If I'd really have to have a somersault move, it would be a defensive move rather than offensive. It would serve the purpose of a quick dodge to avoid projectiles/fast enemies/moving obstacles, without blasting a mile away like with the boost.

[Eurisko]

Whats stopping them? 

 

[StaticMania]

25 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I "love" how when you press the 'ground slam' button when standing still in Generations, he goes into a crouching position. It serves absolutely no purpose, but hey...at least it's there.

If it didn't do that you'd just immediately go into a slide like Nex Gen.

[Tarnish]

13 minutes ago, Eurisko said:

Whats stopping them? 

 

Hard to tell how much can he be really blamed for the current state of the games, but I certainly don't get the feeling he's the right man for the job.

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

If it didn't do that you'd just immediately go into a slide like Nex Gen.

Doesn't the slide button do that anyway when you press it while standing still? Or is the slide and ground stomp the same button? Been ages since I fired up that game.

[StaticMania]

They're the same button.

[Tarnish]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

They're the same button.

Pretty sure I recall you can still just start sliding forward with no starting momentum.

[StaticMania]

You can do that by pushing a direction when crouching...for some reason.

[Tarnish]

1 hour ago, StaticMania said:

You can do that by pushing a direction when crouching...for some reason.

There we go.

[Wraith]

10 hours ago, knuckles20 said:

Everytime I hear the “we have to get Sonic right first” I have to think it’s pathetic how a company can’t figure out how to nail down a single character gameplay in what is now the 13th year of running that moronic excuse.

Anyone who's played a Sonic game released in the past 10 years can tell you "We have to get Sonic right first" was bullshit. I'm still controlling hover crafts and shooting guns and shit in these games. The Shadow model that never took that many resources 20 years ago is just conveniently missing. 

It's obviously a combination of design based on corporate focus testing and budget cuts. Otherwise, why would the resources exist for Classic Sonic and the Wisps and not Tails? 

Don't eat up their bullshit excuses anymore yall. They compromised what YOU like about this series because they thought it would be healthier for their bottom line to do so. 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

You'd have a better point if you didn't equate your own personal tastes with what the fandom in general thinks.

You can't speak for anyone but yourself, and if hasn't been obvious since you've been here, people DO like Sonic's friends and want to see them being used again.

And it's kind of frustrating that whenever someone expresses this, it's always met with an a dismissive "Well they'd suck anyway, so why bother" literally any time its brought up.

 

Maybe learn how to express your point without being dismissive of others and you won't get comments like that.

Seriously wtf. I just said that nobody had a problem with Sonic's friends in Mania and that his friends are not the problem, the janky gameplay is. Fixing the janky gameplay should be the priority because then it can be fun for everyone to play, not just the subset of diehards who care about the characters more than the gameplay itself. You either did not read my post or did not understand it. Please read again carefully because you are putting your own emotion into it when I'm not shitting on adventure fans and what they want. I'm stating a clear reason why alternative gameplay ala the adventure games and 06 have not returned this far. 

This fandom is made up of several sub fandoms. The irony is, my post is calling out the specific set of fans that whine and care mostly about the adventure style games and want all of that back, when there are other fans who do not. I'm not even including myself in that because I like Sonic Adventure! Im somebody who wants to see another Sonic Adventure game, or inspired by the original in some form, someday. I've stated many times that it's one of my favorite games in the series. But there are fans who started with the boost games, many with the classic, etc., that dont even care for them enough to deal with the problematic alternative gameplay, not to mention casual gamers who just know sonic is suppose to be fast and curl into a ball, this should be very clear by now. 

 

I am stating the obvious. But many fans of that era dont care about the obvious reality, they just want what they want at the expense of everything and everyone else. It's their prerogative but its going to look ignorant when this issue should not be a mystery at this point.

 

 

[UpCDownCLeftCRightC]

6 hours ago, Tarnish said:

Hard to tell how much can he be really blamed for the current state of the games, but I certainly don't get the feeling he's the right man for the job.

Takashi Iizuka is like the literal Dad of the adventure games (they were very much his brainchild), probably the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games, and yet here you are saying you dont think he knows what hes doing and someone should replace him. 

 

I dont know if an adventure remake is going to happen or not. I kinda hope it does, I'd like to revisit the direction of SA1. But the kind of fans that in this thread are the kind that will never be happy unless they get exactly what they want. And from a consumer POV that's fine but if I were the head of Sonic Team, I'd probably ignore you lot and focus more on efforts that can make the games better and improve conditions for most (read: not all, because that's impossible) sonic fans, not just the ones currently screaming.  In order to have the ambitious games people seem to want out of this franchise, it has to appeal to more than just a subset of the most extreme fans with a particular bent. And no, for the last time I'm not trashing the adventure games as a whole, they were not niche games in their day, they were very big. But they did have big problems, alternative gameplay being probably the major one, and most people (including Sonic Team) know that and would want to see those fixed before just forcing extra characters and content in the game just because it'd make a particular subset happy. It has been said to you numerous times. The fact that you cant accept it now is your own fault, not Sonic Team's. They're not going to ignore everyone else and the health of the series just for you.

(Well who knows they might do that now. No one knows what will come next after Forces)

[Multikaris]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

Anyone who's played a Sonic game released in the past 10 years can tell you "We have to get Sonic right first" was bullshit. I'm still controlling hover crafts and shooting guns and shit in these games. The Shadow model that never took that many resources 20 years ago is just conveniently missing. 

It's obviously a combination of design based on corporate focus testing and budget cuts. Otherwise, why would the resources exist for Classic Sonic and the Wisps and not Tails? 

Don't eat up their bullshit excuses anymore yall. They compromised what YOU like about this series because they thought it would be healthier for their bottom line to do so. 

Not exactly those things, but equivalent thereof; rolling around as a snowball, for instance. Even though these are only done one time, they are far more alien to the past and the rest of the game now. Often, they have more in common with generic licensed platformers and stuff like that now.  This is the one redeeming quality of the Boom games, they at least bothered bringing the other characters back.

[Tarnish]

44 minutes ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Takashi Iizuka is like the literal Dad of the adventure games (they were very much his brainchild)

I know he was very involved with them, but that was 20 years ago. A man can change a lot in that time.

And actions speak louder than words do. They can go on interviews all day long, claiming how they love this franchise, but their output speaks very much otherwise. Broken games, inconsistent characters, wildly inconsistent tones and world building, rehashed ideas, stripped out features, overly simplified game design that feels like a step back from what we had 20+ years ago.

If this is the result from "the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games ", I wonder what we'd get from someone who just doesn't care. Heck, we might even get better stuff from someone like that at this point.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, UpCDownCLeftCRightC said:

Takashi Iizuka is like the literal Dad of the adventure games (they were very much his brainchild), probably the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games, and yet here you are saying you dont think he knows what hes doing and someone should replace him. 

 

25 minutes ago, Tarnish said:

I know he was very involved with them, but that was 20 years ago. A man can change a lot in that time.

And actions speak louder than words do. They can go on interviews all day long, claiming how they love this franchise, but their output speaks very much otherwise. Broken games, inconsistent characters, wildly inconsistent tones and world building, rehashed ideas, stripped out features, overly simplified game design that feels like a step back from what we had 20+ years ago.

If this is the result from "the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games ", I wonder what we'd get from someone who just doesn't care. Heck, we might even get better stuff from someone like that at this point.

Which I gotta say, that would be pretty depressing to think about considering how far we've strayed from that. Like, you hear about these great passionate artists who lose track of their wide-eyed, visionary enthusiasm once they step into a well-earned, much higher position fairly often. So it's not far-fetched at all, but that's gotta be one of the rugged eye openers in the morning.

I say would be because, forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a recent lowkey interview were he basically admitted that he didn't really get why people loved the Boost formula so much, but had to lean into it?

[Multikaris]

1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

I know he was very involved with them, but that was 20 years ago. A man can change a lot in that time.

And actions speak louder than words do. They can go on interviews all day long, claiming how they love this franchise, but their output speaks very much otherwise. Broken games, inconsistent characters, wildly inconsistent tones and world building, rehashed ideas, stripped out features, overly simplified game design that feels like a step back from what we had 20+ years ago.

If this is the result from "the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games ", I wonder what we'd get from someone who just doesn't care. Heck, we might even get better stuff from someone like that at this point.

Case in point; the movie. It looks so, so fresh. Even more than IDW, actually.

 

The games these days are so simplified compared to ones from even merely SEVEN years ago. 

[Scritch the Cat]

1 hour ago, Tarnish said:

I know he was very involved with them, but that was 20 years ago. A man can change a lot in that time.

And actions speak louder than words do. They can go on interviews all day long, claiming how they love this franchise, but their output speaks very much otherwise. Broken games, inconsistent characters, wildly inconsistent tones and world building, rehashed ideas, stripped out features, overly simplified game design that feels like a step back from what we had 20+ years ago.

If this is the result from "the only higher up left in the company who still cares that much about the content in the games ", I wonder what we'd get from someone who just doesn't care. Heck, we might even get better stuff from someone like that at this point.

Plus, back then power players like Yuji Naka were still around.  Maybe they’ve hired a suitable replacement programmer, but with how little physics have mattered since, it’s hard to tell.

While I won’t point the finger too heavily at Iizuka, it seems obvious that SOMEONE in an administrative role has to answer for a glaring ethical problem.  I could take SEGA more at its word that everything after Sonic 06 was born of a sincere attempt to evade that debacle, if not for two cases since of them not evading it.  The biggest problems of both Sonic 4: Episode I and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric are due to the same thing that killed Sonic 2006; SEGA rushing the game out to meet a deadline, even if they obviously aren’t done.  

Given those shenanigans, you could argue there’s a reason SEGA isn’t aiming higher with its Sonic games, but it’s a reason that wouldn’t fly with many other developers.  It’d fly with EA certainly, but Nintendo would declare it a massive violation of Shigeru Miyamoto’s most famous dictum, and glaring proof that this dictum is correct.

25 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Case in point; the movie. It looks so, so fresh. Even more than IDW, actually.

 

The games these days are so simplified compared to ones from even merely SEVEN years ago. 

I’m not sure why you feel the movie ISN’T just a simplified version of what came before, and much of what sets it apart is “fresh” in about the same way as Shadow the Hedgehog was; that is, a cartoon character going to the human world meeting a live-action human sidekick is new to this series but it’s a movie cliche.

I’m not saying the film will suck, and it’s promoters certainly seem to believe in their vision more than Sonic Team has believed in their vision for any game in years, but that doesn’t mean the vision’s actually good.

[Multikaris]

15 minutes ago, Scritch the Cat said:

Plus, back then power players like Yuji Naka were still around.  Maybe they’ve hired a suitable replacement programmer, but with how little physics have mattered since, it’s hard to tell.

While I won’t point the finger too heavily at Iizuka, it seems obvious that SOMEONE in an administrative role has to answer for a glaring ethical problem.  I could take SEGA more at its word that everything after Sonic 06 was born of a sincere attempt to evade that debacle, if not for two cases since of them not evading it.  The biggest problems of both Sonic 4: Episode I and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric are due to the same thing that killed Sonic 2006; SEGA rushing the game out to meet a deadline, even if they obviously aren’t done.  

Given those shenanigans, you could argue there’s a reason SEGA isn’t aiming higher with its Sonic games, but it’s a reason that wouldn’t fly with many other developers.  It’d fly with EA certainly, but Nintendo would declare it a massive violation of Shigeru Miyamoto’s most famous dictum, and glaring proof that this dictum is correct.

I’m not sure why you feel the movie ISN’T just a simplified version of what came before, and much of what sets it apart is “fresh” in about the same way as Shadow the Hedgehog was; that is, a cartoon character going to the human world meeting a live-action human sidekick is new to this series but it’s a movie cliche.

I’m not saying the film will suck, and it’s promoters certainly seem to believe in their vision more than Sonic Team has believed in their vision for any game in years, but that doesn’t mean the vision’s actually good.

Because there's no Wisps, Zavok, etc. NONE of that. It also has all-new settings, villains, etc. 

[thumbs13]

31 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

Because there's no Wisps, Zavok, etc. NONE of that. It also has all-new settings, villains, etc. 

Ignoring the fact that a movie not having gameplay mechanics should be a given, the villains are the U.S military and Eggman. We've been getting that for years.

[Multikaris]

Just now, thumbs13 said:

Ignoring the fact that a movie not having gameplay mechanics should be a given, the villains are the U.S military and Eggman. We've been getting that for years.

Wisps are far from just a “gameplay mechanic”. There’s also all-new environments... even if most are our own.

[thumbs13]

Just now, Miragnarok said:

Wisps are far from just a “gameplay mechanic”. There’s also all-new environments... even if most are our own.

 They're powerups with faces. Like the werehog. Like caliburn. 

Also, environments based on the real world have been done in Sonic. Unleashed was a game that existed. Sonic goes to the real world every two years with Mario. None of this is new and none of this deserves praise for stunning originality.

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, thumbs13 said:

 They're powerups with faces. Like the werehog. Like caliburn. 

Also, environments based on the real world have been done in Sonic. Unleashed was a game that existed. Sonic goes to the real world every two years with Mario. None of this is new and none of this deserves praise for stunning originality.

They DID have story context, like the Werehog and Caliburn. So they are still Story-related, and their absence means a lot (see also, IDW). And those crossovers go for specific, glamorous locales during specific, glamorous effects, and maybe with some cartoon polish, and npcs only being from the franchises. This... it’s just mundane earth, and I commend that. 

[thumbs13]

12 minutes ago, Miragnarok said:

They DID have story context, like the Werehog and Caliburn. So they are still Story-related, and their absence means a lot (see also, IDW). And those crossovers go for specific, glamorous locales during specific, glamorous effects, and maybe with some cartoon polish, and npcs only being from the franchises. This... it’s just mundane earth, and I commend that. 

...No it doesn't. Not for the type of movie the Sonic movie is. Wisps arent in it because they're doing the literal bare minimum with the character, not as some artistic stand. It'd be like congratulating Illumination's Mario movie for not bringing back the FLUDD.

You're giving credit where no credit should be given, honestly. Not doing something you had no plans to do shouldn't be given a reward. It'd be weirder if they did add post 2010 elements of Sonic in what is by all accounts an origin story.