Has "Solo Sonic" been detrimental to the series?

[DabigRG]

18 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

No, he wasn't.

Ow. That's right.

Yeah, Crash really didn't have that many playable characters outside of spinoffs.

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, I do agree with the notion that they need to work on the writing and gameplay beyond anything else. I believe I've even mentioned this somewhere else, if not in this thread.

If other characters are written poorly and barely contribute much, to the point where, in Forces, they all seem to be too reliant or heavily dependent on Sonic to even be competent or function (in Tails' case).

Stop that. The fans clearly don't like this "Savior Sonic" ideology that's been even more common in recent games. I applaud Lost World for trying to make a reason for the characters to be involved in the story, but the way the did it involved some OoC moments and cringy dialogue in an effort to fein a conflict that's simply not needed and too sudden. Tails berating Sonic for being too rash or something and having his own voice? Okay, that's a cool idea, but the execution was just poor. Sonic SHOULD be given some criticism for his reckless abandon, but perhaps since there needs to be more development with Tails, give it to a character that's known to speak their mind.

But yes, first and foremost, create a story that INVOLVES these characters in a thoughtful or interesting way, and then focus on making the gameplay fun. There's two different teams and skills needed for both of these so I don't see why they need to rush something out or can't seem to keep a consistency for the writing when a game designer isn't typically going to be on the writing team in a corporate project like this. And if they are? Try to find more people to work on the gameplay or more creative minds for the story. 

I really don't understand how there can be a good reason for these two things to be so underwhelming.

[Tracker_TD]

In a series like Sonic, the last thing I want them to do is put story before gameplay. Have the story sure, but prioritising it before the gameplay is just... backwards to me. A huge part of Sonic's appeal is the arcadey gameplay that's true to its origin, even in games as recent as Generations. This isn't The Last of Us or Uncharted. That's what the comics are for. 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm saying they should put more focus into the gameplay as well as story, becauae as of recently, we've had cringy dialogue and "comedy/humor" in a series that was never about cracking multiple jokes at every possible second.

Forces didn't have as much, but the mosr infamous "True dat" and Sonic smelling his armpit are still gpod examples of what we don't want.

[Tracker_TD]

4 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

I'm saying they should put more focus into the gameplay as well as story, becauae as of recently, we've had cringy dialogue and "comedy/humor" in a series that was never about cracking multiple jokes at every possible second.

Forces didn't have as much, but the mosr infamous "True dat" and Sonic smelling his armpit are still gpod examples of what we don't want.

I think looking to eliminate humour outright is too far to the opposite extreme. In fact one of the specific points you mentioned is one of the few times a joke in Forces actually lands, because it’s Sonic taking the piss out Infinite in a way that suits his character (“You smell like fear.” “Nah, I just ran here.”). It’s no worse (arguably better) than the likes of “HEY LOOK A GIANT TALKING EGG” at any rate. 

I get it - people want ‘serious’ Sonic stories again. That doesn’t need to necessitate making Sonic himself joyless. The joke writing could improve but when you’re listing even the half decent jokes amongst that I’m a tad puzzled at the aim here.

[Wraith]

59 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

In a series like Sonic, the last thing I want them to do is put story before gameplay. Have the story sure, but prioritising it before the gameplay is just... backwards to me. A huge part of Sonic's appeal is the arcadey gameplay that's true to its origin, even in games as recent as Generations. This isn't The Last of Us or Uncharted. That's what the comics are for. 

It's a huge part, but it's not the whole story. The bigger emphasis on appealing characters and worlds alongside arcadey gameplay seals the deal for a lot of Sega's IPs for me. Or it did.

[StaticMania]

17 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Sonic smelling his armpit are still gpod examples of what we don't want.

 

Why did you phrase the joke like this? This is like the one joke from Forces that keeps getting brought up and it's such a basic joke.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

 

Why did you phrase the joke like this? This is like the one joke from Forces that keeps getting brought up and it's such a basic joke.

Must...resist...reference.

[Foxthefox1000]

I may have come off as extreme, but I'm not saying to get rid of it in general. Just get better writing for better jokes if you're going to have a smartass Sonic, and make it so he's only like that on rare occasions. 

Of course, not everyone has the same humor, but that's why I'm saying they should limit it, because there's a good chance the audience will just see a Sonic who doesn't even care and who makes puns they despise (like the most common complaint with his character nowadays). Sonic, in the past, made cheesy one-liners and cracked jokes at other's expenses by calling them names at worst.

Boom shows that these characters can be used for comedy, but it's at the expense of the characterizations we've seen across every other medium. And Boom also clearly doesn't take itself seriously and is super meta. 

For an action/adventure series focused on fast, momemtum-based gameplay? The only jokes that work are small, short quips made on other's behalf, and they work with characters like Knuckles and Eggman who are easily heated, but back-to-back jokes with exposition and sometimes poor deliveries aren't fun or can't even be called quips. They're modernising, or trying to, anyways, a series that has a lot of 90s and early 2000s charm.

Mario hasn't done away with it's cartoon-y world filled with happy personifications of hills and plantlife or jovial mustachioed Italians - why does Sonic think it needs to constantly reinvent itself to fit in? It was always the edgy, but full of spunk and life platformer with colorful environments and cheesy, but charming dialogue. It's over-the-top setting and wacky expressions in the Adventure series or the expressions on the Classic characters fit. It's not even Sonic that's the issue, as Tails is becoming the sarcastic smart guy without any means of defending himself, Knuckles isn't even a knucklehead, but a bonified idiot nowadays who's the butt of jokes and extremely incompetent, and Amy is actually the only character that's gotten some development, albeit she also can't seem to fend for herself and is there simply to be the feminine support character that encourages Sonic and, on occasion, provides useful insight. She's not Sonic-obsessed as her main character trait, at least. They haven't repressed her character back to that.

The problem in these examples lies with their classifications as "Main" or "Secondary" characters. Making your characters living stereotypes isn't exactly Sonic's thing - that's primarily what Mario was about. But now, with the RPGs, Paoer Mario, and even some mainlinr titles, it almost seems like Mario's overtaken Sonic as the one with actual vitality and life put into it's characters, when in the early days, I would've argued the opposite.

[StaticMania]

14 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

...but a bonified idiot nowadays...

Knuckles isn't an idiot anymore. For Knuckles people don't seem to be able to move past 1998-2007. It would be really nice if they could though.

Sonic Forces: He made a terrible strategy, what a non-leader he is.

[Tracker_TD]

38 minutes ago, Wraith said:

It's a huge part, but it's not the whole story. The bigger emphasis on appealing characters and worlds alongside arcadey gameplay seals the deal for a lot of Sega's IPs for me. Or it did.

Oh yeah totally, I wouldn’t still be around here if I didn’t love Sonic’s world and stuff. I just don’t like the idea of making it a priority over the core gameplay. I find something like 3&K strikes a fine enough balance for me (I’d say Mania but even I can admit that the story in that game has some clear communication issues)

 

Or better yet, Fantasy Zone - game with absolutely ridulous amounts of lore that is a) all within the games and b) not at the expense of gameplay 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm sorry, but the only testament to his leadership skills is him having the Resistance stay together (and then, these people are fighting for their worlds), and then sending in more than half of his Forces in the spur of the moment to get obliterated.

In the comics? Sure. But as he is in the games, we have no instances of him being smart or treated with utmost sincerity in his actions. And there's also his ME/Angel Island duty that seems to have been forgotten about.

[Wraith]

12 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Oh yeah totally, I wouldn’t still be around here if I didn’t love Sonic’s world and stuff. I just don’t like the idea of making it a priority over the core gameplay. I find something like 3&K strikes a fine enough balance for me (I’d say Mania but even I can admit that the story in that game has some clear communication issues)

I think they should be experimenting more with how to incorporate the story into the gameplay flow. Sonic Mania was kinda the opposite of that in that they were just kind of throwing shit at the wall but some of the bits they did were funny if nothing else. 

I want something like Sonic CD next game since I felt even more interested in Little Planet than I did Angel Island but more actual characters with arcs like 3K and SA1/2 have would be nice too.

[StaticMania]

31 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

...treated with utmost sincerity in his actions.

Which would be because he's just there and has no reason to be "just there"...

[Foxthefox1000]

I don't think I'm following you. But I doubt I'd change my stance on how they've been treating him. It was a good step in the right direction on paper, but it could still use some more flavor for the extremely bitter and salty taste it leaves me with.

[Diogenes]

46 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Knuckles isn't an idiot anymore.

He is though, but that's good and he's supposed to be one.

[StaticMania]

He's suppose to be...I know that, but he really hasn't been one recently and it's weird that people still act like he has.

[DabigRG]

5 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He's suppose to be...I know that, but he really hasn't been one recently and it's weird that people still act like he has.

I think it's been made fairly clear that people with this series tend to hold on pretty hard to things regardless of relevance and actual seriousness.

[Foxthefox1000]

Ugh. Holding onto the past? Knuckles was gullible, but not the unintelligent dolt he's been more commonly portrayed as now. 

Of course, hot-headed and reckless, with an additive gullible side and mostly lacking in strategy IS bordering on unintelligent, and it makes sense that a rather isolated person wouldn't have as much common knowledge as the regular citizens and inhabitants of the world.

But he's still incompetent and the butt of a joke, as seen by Amy smacking him into a tree and all as well as in Forces. It seemed like Tails took over as the leader near the end tbh.

 

[StaticMania]

22 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

...the butt of a joke...

He's been that since the beginning.

That's also like his entire role in Sonic X and even somewhat true in the OVA.

[Foxthefox1000]

Yes, but those jokes weren't calling into question his incompetence, but more so fun jabs.

And no? He was capable and smart in his tricky maneuvers at keeping Sonic at bay in S3aK. But tell me sonething: Would you call Donkey Kong smarter and more competent despite him being the butt of many jokes?

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Ugh. Holding onto the past? Knuckles was gullible, but not the unintelligent dolt he's been more commonly portrayed as now. 

 

You mean how he's been misinterpreted(whether out of universe or in) since mid-2004?

I was referring to a number of people here and beyond, btw.

1 hour ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

 

Of course, hot-headed and reckless, with an additive gullible side and mostly lacking in strategy IS bordering on unintelligent, and it makes sense that a rather isolated person wouldn't have as much common knowledge as the regular citizens and inhabitants of the world.

But he's still incompetent and the butt of a joke, as seen by Amy smacking him into a tree and all as well as in Forces.

So, not really a joke then?

Honestly, his characterization in Modern games(and to an extent, Heroes) before Forces was more that of a jock who engaged in fairly lighthearted competition with Sonic, though his cockiness also meant they could "get away" with having some visual gags at his expense.

Forces, on the other hand, interestingly brought him more in line with his intended characterization, with the distinctions being him actually acting as the Commander(deeper voice, encouraging troops to fight hard) and him occasionally straining under the obligations of the role(not being able to go on certain solo missions himself, being reminded that there's more important matters that require his presence). Ergo, less him "being a joke" and more the joke(?) being he wants to do simpler stuff at times.

1 hour ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

It seemed like Tails took over as the leader near the end tbh.

 

Honestly, my take on the story was always that Tails would've been the Resistance's leader had he not lost it/went missing and Knuckles just stepped up into the role of Commander because he was headstrong(read:brave) enough to lead the troops into battle.

41 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

But tell me sonething: Would you call Donkey Kong smarter and more competent despite him being the butt of many jokes?

[Foxthefox1000]

And all that characterisation is ruined by him acting in the moment and getting most of his troops KILLED. 

And he may have "led" the Resistance, but they all have the ability to encourage each other, so I don't see what gives him more qualifications than the rest. And the others are also brave.

Like I said, Forces was a step in the right direction, but the execution could've been better. Maybe if we had more than talking head emoticons to better develop the cast. But it's good to see him outside his comfort zone given he originally was a loner and never had such a responsibility before.

Though, I feel Amy being the co-leader or second-in-command is actually the most faithful and befitting. 

Hm, I think I remember seeing DK had some knowledge in mechanics before, but was it just from the Olympics? That's a weird thing to state for a character from a spin-off, so maybe there's actual precedence, in which case, woops.

[StaticMania]

55 minutes ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

Would you call Donkey Kong smarter and more competent despite him being the butt of many jokes?

Smart, Competence, and Jokes made at a character's expense...

All 3 of these things exist for a character individually, soooo, yes I would.

1 hour ago, Foxthefox1000 said:

...but those jokes weren't calling into question his incompetence, but more so fun jabs.

Um, half the jokes from early Sonic X are about this stuff...

Writing wise, it's not always just the characters jabbing.

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, but that's funny because him being gullible was always a personality trait. Though I guess, yeah, he's not much of an idiot nowadays. He just makes sone stupid decisions now and then which was always a part of his character. I get it now.