Maybe Sonic needs a reboot?

[Dummy Bear]

Okay, so I'm new here to SSMB and this is my first post on this forum. I've been a fan of Sonic since Sonic 2 during the Genesis days.

We all know that this decade hasn't been kind to Sonic. He's become the butt of every gaming joke and "asn't had a decent game in years"(yes, the 2D handheld titles apparently don't exist, folks.). There's the constant barrage of "How to fix Sonic" or "Sonic needs to die" topics on everyone and their grandma's blog, youtube video, and forum.

The fanbase itself has been divided and broken beyond belief. You've got one part of the fanbase who thinks Sonic's too fast and another that thinks Sonic isn't fast enough. Some who think it can work in 3D and others who think it should stick to 2D. The series has seen better days...

I know it sounds like a stretch but I propose that the series make a reboot. Not just a continuity reboot but a reboot of the franchise as a whole. Just something to wipe out all the grime associated with "modern Sonic" and create a entirely brand new Sonic from scratch. Rather than try to "recapture the magic" from the old games, make a Sonic game that'll be good by it's own merits instead. Reinvent itself. Just look at Mario and his transition to 3D. It practically abandoned most of the concepts of 2D Mario and did something else. Sonic should try something like that, and no I don't mean gimmicks like Werehogs and Swords. Do something that uses the 3D environments and takes adventage of Sonic's abilities.

[Blazing Sol]

Well Sonic 06 was a reboot to the franchise, but due to poor development schedules and resources, it failed at being a successful reboot. I agree that most people are split apart on opinions based on how a revival should be. Lets face the fact that Sonic can only be revived in 3D (you know how most games are made in todays world). My point being is Sonic and his fans can only be restored with a quality Sonic game. Ya here that Sonic Team!

P.S. I wrote this on my Wii so don't be too hard on me if my message doesn't get through to y'all

[Dummy Bear]

Actually, I'm very aware of Sonic 06 being a "reboot" of sorts for the franchise, but I'm talking about a true reboot which starts EVERYTHING over. Storyline, gameplay, character portrayals, everything.

I know that a quality title would win fans over, but when most people think of Sonic these days they think of his "crappy friends", an "inferior" Eggman, and other crap. I just think wiping the slate clean and building from scratch would be one way to go.

[Tornado]

A reboot of the franchise wouldn't solve anything but shutting up some of the more irrelevant whiners. The only difference it could make is if Sega handed the franchise to someone with a different vision of what it should be, but even then that would make it so a reboot really wasn't necessary.

Let me put it this way: If a reboot was going to be successful, it would have had to happen before Unleashed showed signs of competence, probably right after ShtH or STH '06; when it is generally understood that the franchise could go no lower. Now that there is actual hope among a large portion of the fanbase that Sonic Team actually knows what the hell they are doing, a reboot at this point would cause more troubles than it would solve because there is already a strong sentiment that the next game (whatever it may be) will be at least decent. Reboots work when there is no hope for a franchise in its current state to get any better, so they toss everything. Because of Unleashed's actual attempts at quality, there would be backlash (I know, when isn't there backlash in the Sonic fandom, but stay with me here) against the next game for throwing out stuff that arguably worked.

Rather than try to "recapture the magic" from the old games, make a Sonic game that'll be good by it's own merits instead. Reinvent itself. Just look at Mario and his transition to 3D. It practically abandoned most of the concepts of 2D Mario and did something else.

I'll also add that Sonic in 3D abandoned nearly all of the 2D concepts anyways.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Tornado

[Diogenes]

I don't see any value in a reboot. Literally, none at all.

First off, there isn't much a reboot can do that the series can't just grow into instead. Unless they intend to change major pillars of the series' existence (which, I can guarantee you, would only serve to piss everyone off even more than they are now) they can and should just go make this reinvented Sonic without having to frame it as a reboot. Hell a reboot is more likely to alienate the fans, in the same way new Sonic is driving off the stubborn old fans. Only this way we'd have official word that "your Sonic is dead now".

Second, a reboot can't magically change peoples' minds. It doesn't matter if the Word of God says modern Sonic never happened, it doesn't make the fans forget about it and it doesn't mean Sonic Team will be any better at making a game. Whether they call it a reboot or not we've still got a team that doesn't know what they're doing and fans that don't trust them one bit.

This series is only going to recover when they come up with a game that pleases both/all(/most?) sides. Trying to pull a reboot is useless fluff in the best case and an underhanded trick in the worst.

[Dr. Mechano]

"inferior" Eggman

Inferior to who, might I ask?

The uber-evil cartoon Robotnik who, despite his popularity, is and always was a derivative character based on the game Eggman in the first place?

Perhaps that's not what you're getting at, but I'd like to know who Eggman is "inferior" to in this comparison that the fanbase is supposedly making.

[Sean]

I thought every Sonic game was essentially a reboot.

[SuperStingray]

post

This pretty much. Rebooting Sonic at this point is pretty much like attempting to reboot your computer when it's unplugged. There's no real reason to just eliminate everything and start from scratch. It's not that hard to improve what's already on our table and I guarantee you that there is nothing on this Earth that can only be improved by being eliminated altogether. The fortunate thing about Sonic as opposed to other subpar series is that Sonic still has enough support within his company and community to keep him going for a long time. There will have to be some major changes in Sega and Sonic Team's standards and methodology, I can tell you that, but there's really no reason to throw out both the wheat AND the chaff in doing so.

[Diogenes]

Perhaps that's not what you're getting at, but I'd like to know who Eggman is "inferior" to in this comparison that the fanbase is supposedly making.

The Eggman that can actually last to the final boss fight, presumably.

[Dr. Mechano]

The Eggman that can actually last to the final boss fight, presumably.

He still does that! ...In the handheld games. ...Which are just as important as the home console games. ...At least, I think so.

[Dummy Bear]

Inferior to who, might I ask?

The uber-evil cartoon Robotnik who, despite his popularity, is and always was a derivative character based on the game Eggman in the first place?

Perhaps that's not what you're getting at, but I'd like to know who Eggman is "inferior" to in this comparison that the fanbase is supposedly making.

The SatAM fanboys who apparently think SatAM's Robotnik is the definitive version of Robotnik and the game's version is some watered down version despite the fact that Eggman was never meant to be an uber serious evil villain in the first place.

Eh, I kinda thought the reboot idea would get this kind of response, but it was worth a shot though.

For the record, I loved Sonic Unleashed for what it was but I still see "Sonic is dead" topics left and right despite it being progress. Eh...

[Miko]

This pretty much. Rebooting Sonic at this point is pretty much like attempting to reboot your computer when it's unplugged. There's no real reason to just eliminate everything and start from scratch.

Uninspired character after character, gameplay that has not transitioned well to 3D and discourages 360 level exploration, not thinking ahead far enough for 2P mode and essentially making every addition to the cast "Sonic but better", lame stories, watered down relationships among characters, a mainstream mythos that hasn't been doing well, a total loss in the attitude that made him stay (the only people left predominantly being the "moralfags" and "drama haters" of his fanbase), making Sonic's identity about a gimmick and not making him a testament to the whole franchise's potential...? There are plenty of reasons I'd think, to reboot him.

It's not that hard to improve what's already on our table and I guarantee you that there is nothing on this Earth that can only be improved by being eliminated altogether.

Raaaape, muurder...

I know it sounds like a stretch but I propose that the series make a reboot. Not just a continuity reboot but a reboot of the franchise as a whole.

Do it.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

This series is not that deep in the hole as folks make it out to need a reboot, and would do much more harm than good.

I think the gameplay formula either needs to be reworked or fine tuned. With Sonic as he is (without the werehog, and the extra gimmicks that served no good), there are many things he can be used in the game that could do more good for the series.

Other than that, all other aspects of the series are a bit more simpler. Characters and Stories just need better writers, and the levels would be better if they were more than just speeding down a hallway and had more content to it than what we got in Unleashed.

As for other playable characters, which is another issue, they would be best as optional content instead of being required to complete the game.

This fanbase is split, and there are lots of whinners outside this fanbase, but all hope's not lost yet unless Sonic Team were to screw things up by adding other gameplay gimmicks that conflicts with one another.

Edited August 25, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Diogenes]

Uninspired character after character, gameplay that has not transitioned well to 3D and discourages 360 level exploration, not thinking ahead far enough for 2P mode and essentially making every addition to the cast "Sonic but better", lame stories, watered down relationships among characters, a mainstream mythos that hasn't been doing well, a total loss in the attitude that made him stay (the only people left predominantly being the "moralfags" and "drama haters" of his fanbase), making Sonic's identity about a gimmick and not making him a testament to the whole franchise's potential...? There are plenty of reasons I'd think, to reboot him.

None of these require a reboot to be fixed. And none of them are guaranteed to be fixed by a reboot.

Change? Shit yeah. Reboot? Fuck no.

[Miko]

None of these require a reboot to be fixed

I disagree. Too many people perceive Sonic to be for example "all about the speed" and will not be able to get him out of that classification (and all the baggage that comes with it ) unless you reboot the series. A lot of people perceive the way the gameplay has been to be "Sonic." and besides the mythos could presently use a bit of work.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Miko

[Rusty Spy]

To be honest, I can't see any good in reboots in general. If your basically going to throw away everything and start over from scratch, you might as well just make an entirely different franchise altogether, the only set back to that is you would have to come up with an entirely different character and gameplay altogether, but isn't that essentially the point, aside from the gameplay?

As for Sonic, everything Diogenes said.

I disagree. Too many people perceive Sonic to be for example "all about the speed" and will not be able to get him out of that classification (and all the baggage that comes with it ) unless you reboot the series. A lot of people perceive the way the gameplay has been to be "Sonic." and besides the mythos could presently use a bit of work.

Still no. Just make a good game, and the fans will follow suit.

Edited August 25, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[Miko]

I can't see any good in reboots in general.

Sonic was and is a mascot for the company, a showcase for his potential. We don't need to make a new franchise. Sonic at first didn't used to HAVE a storyline so who cares if it's scrapped? To me, I think we just need him to do what he was created to do. Showcase the strength of the company regardless of what platform he's on or has, or what kind of ideas are presently overflowing.

Still no. Just make a good game, and the fans will follow suit.

Easy to say "make a good game" but that doesn't mean what your suggesting (not to reboot him) is all that practical however.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Miko

[Diogenes]

I disagree. Too many people perceive Sonic to be for example "all about the speed" and will not be able to get him out of that classification (and all the baggage that comes with it ) unless you reboot the series.

And how, exactly, will a reboot fix that? People aren't going to change just because someone says "reboot!". A new game might be able to fix it, but there's no reason they need a reboot to make it.

[Miko]

And how, exactly, will a reboot fix that?

A reboot implies the tangent from previous works will be cut. Which is in essence making it clear changes will be occuring. And doing this will give them the leeway to reinvent Sonic (especially in terms of gameplay and mythos) that will be more flexible for the company to reach their fullest potential with.

People aren't going to change just because someone says "reboot!".

Yeah, they would. If you make a new story, new styles in gameplay and so on, a lot of people will get the hint that this is *not* the same Sonic.

A new game might be able to fix it, but there's no reason they need a reboot to make it.

I presently don't see how all the problems I'd listed would be rectified without rebooting it though. Not saying some games can't be fixed, but I don't think Sonic fits into this.

[Tornado]

I disagree. Too many people perceive Sonic to be for example "all about the speed" and will not be able to get him out of that classification (and all the baggage that comes with it ) unless you reboot the series. A lot of people perceive the way the gameplay has been to be "Sonic." and besides the mythos could presently use a bit of work.

If you do a reboot, and the same team that is in charge of the reboot is what cause the need for a reboot in the firstplace, than rebooting won't do anything. There's also the very real danger that if you throw everything out and start from scratch by handing it to someone else, they will fuck things up even more.

I'm almost willing to agree that Sonic Team should probably throw out the entire storyline of the series and start from scratch, but it isn't as if Sonic Team has ever cared about storyline consistency anyways.

And doing this will give them the leeway to reinvent Sonic (especially in terms of gameplay and mythos) that will be more flexible for the company to reach their fullest potential with.

Sonic Team already does whatever the hell they want. What difference would more freedom give them?

Edited August 25, 2009 by Tornado

[Rusty Spy]

Sonic at first didn't used to HAVE a storyline so who cares if it's scrapped?

A lot of people actually. And yes he DID have a storyline. Go back and play Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles, Sonic 2, Sonic 1.

Every classic game pre-Sonic Adventure had a storyline.

To me, I think we just need him to do what he was created to do. Showcase the strength of the company regardless of what platform he's on or has, or what kind of ideas are presently overflowing.

Again, how is a reboot going to fix that? And doesn't showcasing the companies strengths mean making good quality games?

Easy to say "make a good game" but that doesn't mean what your suggesting (not to reboot him) is all that practical however.

How is it not practical?

Sure making a Sonic game work in 3D is quite a feat, but it's far, far from impractical.

Edited August 25, 2009 by VirgoTheCougar

[JezMM]

Yeah, they would. If you make a new story, new styles in gameplay and so on, a lot of people will get the hint that this is *not* the same Sonic.

No, they really wouldn't. Here's how it would play out.

Sonic fan: "Have you played the new Sonic?"

Non-interested fellow gamer: "No, not really into Sonic."

Sonic fan: "Ah! But they rebooted it! It's all new! Bet you want to try it now, huh?"

Non-interested fellow gamer: "No, not really into Sonic."

I would hate to have a reboot personally. I really like the world and characters they've established. They just need to get to work with using them to their full potential.

[Badnik Zero]

Reboots are only really successful with discontinued franchises. With Sonic, who's tried to reinvent himself so many times, it would just be more of "Hey guys! Look at the NEW Sonic!" We've seen it before. Anyways Unleashed had quality despite its reception.

Nights could've used a reboot instead of JoD, because the original became kind of forgotten. Don't think it's for Sonic though. In order to erase his disappointing games, he needs a series of a consistent titles or a undeniable hit. At least for the public opinion.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Badnikz

[Tombi]

See, here's the thing: random people complaining and joking about Sonic on the internet isn't what anybody has to worry about. In most cases you'll find that their qualms are near enough completely unresearched apart from mere concepts and maybe a few youtube videos. It happens with pretty much everything that exists and it's a problem with the internet, not Sonic particularly.

That's not to say every complaint about Sonic from random people is this way, you just need to know the right places to look. So basically, not the Youtube comment section or anything like that. But regarding the actual topic at hand; I'm with the people that think just as much can be achieved through improvement

I'm sure a reboot would please some people, as Miko demonstrates; but since reboots work both ways - it would also alienate the firm fanbase SEGA have worked hard to build through the years. And I think the over-under is that there will be more alienation than bringing in new/old fans, just on concept alone. It might be able to be undone over a few years, but come on; why waste the money? Like JezMM alluded to; certain people will never be into Sonic no matter what changes, and most of the ones that this topic and the idea of rebooting aims to please are best left ignored anyway. (Hey, a lot of them want Sonic DEAD. So yeah...)

Edited August 25, 2009 by Tombi

[Miko]

If you do a reboot, and the same team that is in charge of the reboot is what cause the need for a reboot in the firstplace, than rebooting won't do anything.

Many of the critical aspects of the gameplay are mistakes that developers who're presently of greater popularity are doing. Most video game franchises try to make an identity for a character associated with a gameplay gimmick and not with something that won't affect the gameplay. Sonic has shown though that gimmicks may grow staler to people or when great leaps in transition (say 2D to 3D) are made, certain gimmicks don't work. He's also the company's representative, he shouldn't be about a gimmick. This isn't simply a Sonic Team issue and for what it's worth they figured out these problems a lot sooner than many of the people presently criticizing them have. As for the "sonic but better" problem, even Nintendo has on some level done a similar with Mario and Luigi in that it was clear they didn't plan ahead enough for new characters. It's difficult to develop games with a sense of inspiration when you're worked like youre in a sweatshop and don't have much leg room in the way of what you can create.

EDIT:

as Miko demonstrates; but since reboots work both ways - it would also alienate the firm fanbase SEGA have worked hard to build through the years.

No one's alienating them. It's not to say they'd have to totally abandon their older fans but they need to reinvent him to also welcome people who aren't them. That is to say, SEGA needs flexible gameplay. It needs to be able to represent the company's endeavors to do anything, not JUST what they'd been doing in 2D. So, with that said rebooting would be a lot less alienating because there's a greater capacity to acknowledge a lot more people.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Miko