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Maybe Sonic needs a reboot?


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Most people are never going to be steady subscribers to any fanbase; Hardcore fanbases are minority demographics. Irregardless

This is probably irrelevant/off-topic/none-of-my-business/other, but there's no such word as "irregardless", it's just "regardless".

*back on topic*

Um yeah, reboot, no-no, and all that.

Edited by The_Soul_Gauge
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Reboot?

In the storyline maybe (although with the lack of unneeded characters is seemingly getting better).

As for gameplay, they've "rebooted" Sonic's gameplay in every game since Sonic Adventure 2 (to an extent). And, as shown, it's not working too well (bar Unleashed, which, beyond what people may think about me, I thought Unleashed was pretty enjoyable). However, I came into the Sonic series for how the Genesis games played, not for a "new and improved" Sonic.

Edited by Azukara
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This is probably irrelevant/off-topic/none-of-my-business/other, but there's no such word as "irregardless", it's just "regardless".

*back on topic*

Um yeah, reboot, no-no, and all that.

The word actually does exist, as it's becoming slightly more standard to speak and actually appears in some notable dictionaries. It's just now considered a non-standard or informal version of the word "regardless". See "ain't" as a related example.

And as an extra note, I tend to get really bitchy if someone corrects my grammar in an irrelevant topic unless my mistake completely screws up the meaning of my post (or makes for a few lulz). So, um, for the sake of my future at this place, as well as future topics' ability to stay on track, point me to a grammatical error if you absolutely cannot comprehend what I'm saying as a result of it, please? No animosity intended; It's just a pet peeve of mine. Thanks a bunch. x3;;

Now to make this post more worthwhile--

The irony is, we had the exact same thing happen in 1999 and not one person here is really complaining about WHAT SEGA did.

I wouldn't call Sonic Adventure itself a true reboot as it doesn't entirely get rid of every single thing that everyone knew about the series beforehand, but merely a few parts of the western one, and not even key parts at that; Honestly, if you switch "Eggman" for "Robotnik", then you won't have an entirely different experience. If anything, SatAM and Archie are the major proponents of what people believe the western canon to be, not the actual western versions of the games themselves because they had a storyline that was just as negligible and interchangeable as the Japanese one was at the time. All things considered, I would actually call Adventure the true Sonic 4. It wraps up a mystery that had been prevalent in the last few canon games, positively reformats and expands upon Sonic's gameplay in a new dimension, and had the added advantage of thrusting the series back to some semblance of relevance.

(Although for what its worth, you can find Sonic fans who will complain about Adventure's supposed changes to the point where a couple I know will use it as evidence of Sonic Team's destructive xenophobic behavior. xP)

Edited by Nepenthe
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Reboot? No. Change? Yes.

Sonic doesn't need a reboot, just needs to change and tweaked a bit to get rid some of the problems in the games. I mean give him good (various styles of) gameplay, a simplistic, well-written story line or less story/more action, rid of unnecessary chars, and hardly any use of gimmicks whatsoever.

There's no need for a reboot. Just to tweak the games so there would be little to no problems so more people can enjoy them.

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Sonic needs not a reboot, Sonic needs people who can come up with genuinely clever level designs (so, not the current lot then), he needs people who understand that there is such a thing as making the game too fast, he needs people who won't resort to stupid gimmicks just to pad out the game. Maybe he even needs people who favour digital distribution over retail (or people who would sooner release a compilation set at retail after several downloadable games have been put out). He could also use people willing to take a risk on cel-shading or other forms of stylisation; cartoony visuals for a cartoony character. Hell, they could even go for a 3D re-imagining of the 16-bit classic look, a bit (but obviously not exactly) like 3D Dot Game Heroes. That could look phenomenal and give the old 'hog a whole new lease of life.

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Sorry, I had to bring this up:

The irony is, we had the exact same thing happen in 1999 and not one person here is really complaining about WHAT SEGA did.

How does this make any sense? SA1, by all means, was the closest the 3D series ever was to the classics. The gameplay was still made up of running, jumping and rolling. Platforming and speed were still equally there. Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Eggman were still there. Angel Island returns. Chaos Emeralds and Rings were there. I could go on and on...

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Except Sonic ISN'T as remembered by the general public. Oh in game circles perhaps but as a household name? Heck no. And even in the game circles few people actually appreciate the gameplay and mythos behind this character.

What are you talking about?! Sonic is as known as Mario, maybe even more!(I read that somewheres I think). So to say Sonic isn't remembered by the genral public is just stupid.

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Yeah, I think Sonic is more well known than Mario as a character. He's not quite Pikachu status, but he's past Mario by miles.

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Yeah, I think Sonic is more well known than Mario as a character. He's not quite Pikachu status, but he's past Mario by miles.
someone severely underestimates the might of the nintendo empire
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What are you talking about?! Sonic is as known as Mario, maybe even more!(I read that somewheres I think). So to say Sonic isn't remembered by the genral public is just stupid.

And on top of that, he was voted the most popular video game character in the UK, beating even Mario.

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I wouldn't take Sonic's status THAT high (or low, Miko) over Mario...well, at least bar the UK. But Mario is far ahead of Pickachu, who in turn is far ahead of Sonic.

At the same time, Sonic's face is still remembered by as many people across the world than folks say he isn't.

Let's not get that carried away folks. ;)

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I liked Unleashed. It combined the good points of 2D and 3D besides one. If they throw the momentum mechanics in the next title and make Sonic roll then all is fine by me, especially if they make the alternative routes even more independent from one another. The story, meh, nothing too complicated or emotional and Unleashed did fine then, but I'd like to see Tails following Sonic every now and then as well.

The SatAM fanboys who apparently think SatAM's Robotnik is the definitive version of Robotnik and the game's version is some watered down version despite the fact that Eggman was never meant to be an uber serious evil villain in the first place.

Generic villain 101. If anyone wants that back, then they don't have much interest for storyline in the first place.

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No, no, no no no no no no NO they didn't. We still had Eggman, we still had Tails, we still had Knuckles, we still had Amy, we still had rings, Chaos Emeralds, Angel Island, everything. I don't know how your trying to consider that a reboot.

Having the emeralds, Robotnik, Tails, Amy etc doesn't mean there was always ONE storyline. It means the stories shared many of the same elements and yes, I admitted that there were many similarities between the two. That and, even if we ignore the content of the games for a moment the way most westerners perceived Sonic wasn't Shadow with guns, a Sonic with no attitude, Eggman having to rely on some ancient evil of the day etc. Even the style of the schemes are different. Regardless of what was in the games, predominant perceptions of the characters, facilitated by surrounding media didn't portray Sonic or his enviornment the way the modern Japanese style does.

I wouldn't call Sonic Adventure itself a true reboot as it doesn't entirely get rid of every single thing that everyone knew about the series beforehand,

Except The idea that a reboot must do this is faulty. You can reboot a story, and still make nods to some of the elements within the prior mainstream story that worked while discarding things that didn't.

If anything, SatAM and Archie are the major proponents of what people believe the western canon to be, not the actual western versions of the games themselves because they had a storyline that was just as negligible and interchangeable as the Japanese one was at the time.

Yes, but when it really boils down to it I can argue the same relationship to the modern mainstream Japanese story and Archie/SatAM's relationship to the western version of the game storyline. But my point was is, regardless of what was in the manuals verses like that helped to mold what many people perceived as Sonic and that was all overhauled in 1999.

What are you talking about?! Sonic is as known as Mario, maybe even more!(I read that somewheres I think). So to say Sonic isn't remembered by the genral public is just stupid.

1. Sonic is not as known as Mario. That's just pure denial. Granted some magazines will list Sonic as being more popular when we look at the bigger picture I really do NOT see that. Do the game sales even reflect this? They probably don't. And the general idea of Sonic's games is that they suck. The general idea of his huge cast is disliked.

2. Sonic is not a houeshold name anymore. He just isn't. Yeah you can argue he's still reknown if you want but my biggest point was that he isn't nearly as big as he used to be. And even if supposedly, a lot of people do remember Sonic do you honestly think they're going to have a strong sense of what Sonic is? Ok maybe they'll remember the attitude but Eggman searching for ancient evils, Cream, Shadow, Rouge, Big etc? No. Even among those with a casual sense of memory for Sonic, there isn't going to be this vigorous sense of dedication to the present mainstream storyline or even the problems concerning his gameplay. Not saying you can't nod to some of these things it when doing a reboot however.

The SatAM fanboys who apparently think SatAM's Robotnik is the definitive version of Robotnik and the game's version is some watered down version despite the fact that Eggman was never meant to be an uber serious evil villain in the first place.

SatAM Robotnik wasn't without his funny moments. Yes he was serious but he wasn't so serious he was unfit for childrens' television. In any case they have the right to see SatAM Robotnik the way Robotnik is if they want. Eggman always is relying on some ancient evil and no matter how many times his plans to align with this ancient evil come to bite him in the ass he's always doing it. Meanwhile the genesis concepts of the villain typically are, he was able to at least hold a stronghold in several areas taking over refineries and cities. Relying on some monster/god/demon? No by means of his own mental capacities, personality and by extention his inventions. I'm not saying people can't see Eggman as more interesting as a villain BUT that doesn't change that, from where I'm standing I can at the very least understand why the villainy of the mainstream and modern day Eggman is just not as good as the classic or SatAM version. That and some people don't want incredibly deep villains because it will make the story "too complicated" or more complicated than it has to be. Since for them, they were never intending on seeing the villain beyond a plot device anyway and their only value for the villain is in his impact to the hero.

Edited by Miko
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SatAM Robotnik wasn't without his funny moments. Yes he was serious but he wasn't so serious he was unfit for childrens' television. In any case they have the right to see SatAM Robotnik the way Robotnik is if they want. Eggman always is relying on some ancient evil and no matter how many times his plans to align with this ancient evil come to bite him in the ass he's always doing it. Meanwhile the genesis concepts of the villain typically are, he was able to at least hold a stronghold in several areas taking over refineries and cities. Relying on some monster/god/demon? No by means of his own mental capacities, personality and by extention his inventions. I'm not saying people can't see Eggman as more interesting as a villain BUT that doesn't change that, from where I'm standing I can at the very least understand why the villainy of the mainstream and modern day Eggman is just not as good as the classic or SatAM version. That and some people don't want incredibly deep villains because it will make the story "too complicated" or more complicated than it has to be. Since for them, they were never intending on seeing the villain beyond a plot device anyway and their only value for the villain is in his impact to the hero.

You don't have to be a heartless monster to be an effective threat, though. Eggman is able to hold his own in the Rush games,without the aid of a magical monster, while still retaining some goodness/humanity.

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Except The idea that a reboot must do this is faulty. You can reboot a story, and still make nods to some of the elements within the prior mainstream story that worked while discarding things that didn't.

I never said that a reboot to any degree must do this; I merely just elaborated on what I consider a specific type of reboot would consist of. Regardless, I thought your position was that of a reboot that indeed discards everything but the bare essentials which is what I was generally referring to.

Yes, but when it really boils down to it I can argue the same relationship to the modern mainstream Japanese story and Archie/SatAM's relationship to the western version of the game storyline.

I'm confused; How can you argue that a few spinoffs helping to bolster the western games' canon's popularity is directly the same as the older Japanese canon merely being elaborated on in its proper medium in modern times?

But my point was is, regardless of what was in the manuals verses like that helped to mold what many people perceived as Sonic and that was all overhauled in 1999.

Verses in the manuals birthed a few television shows and a comic which are what really helped to mold what many people believed Sonic was. However, the actual manual verses themselves were hardly changed in Adventure-- Only the name of the planet, Eggman's name, and how he used the animals in his robots were done away with (Eggman's name slightly being restored one game later). It wasn't a drastic change from the old games. It was a drastic change from the spinoffs, and thus the fans' preconceptions wouldn't have been guaranteed to remain consistent even if Sonic Team did go with the Western manuals; There exists the possibility that they could have done something totally different than Archie/SatAM even with the older manuals as a springboard.

Edited by Nepenthe
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You don't have to be a heartless monster to be an effective threat, though. Eggman is able to hold his own in the Rush games,without the aid of a magical monster, while still retaining some goodness/humanity.

So he teams up with a multi dimensional double, not much difference. The idea that he's independent in his endeavors is still somewhat lost. For many people they see it as, they can make a greater sense of conflict with people who are so selfish they would do "heartless" things. Heartlessness is practically synonomous with selfishness. Even in the games Eggman acts on self interest not that much more or less than Julian. Oh maybe some people think he's more light hearted in HOW he does things but it's just as selfish in his ambitions for world domination as Julian. And again as I said, many people do not feel the need to make the story needlessly more complicated by adding a "good" and "humane" villain to the story.

How can you argue that a few spinoffs helping to bolster the western games' canon's popularity is directly the same as the older Japanese canon merely being elaborated on in its proper medium in modern times?

Not that this question is especially relevant to my main point but here goes anyway. The modern SoJ storyline is based off of the first SoJ game storyline. There are differences (especially noted the Chaotix) that would indicate that SoJ's game storyline in the past is a different entity. The same is pretty much true for the SoA verses in that a good deal of their information was based off the initial western manuals. However it's not the best comparison because the western storyline for the games would also take things from the cartoons and comics. Even the Japanese came up with their own story for spinball.

However, the actual manual verses themselves were hardly changed in Adventure-- Only the name of the planet, Eggman's name, and how he used the animals in his robots were done away with (Eggman's name slightly being restored one game later).

You're missing the point. Even if what you're saying is true (and I'm sure a good look at the manuals again would demonstrate otherwise) people's general PERCEPTION of Sonic regardless of how rooted it was in what the manuals precisely said was changed. The sentiment that these people felt would be much akin therefore to the very thing many of you are arguing would happen today with a reboot.

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So he teams up with a multi dimensional double, not much difference. The idea that he's independent in his endeavors is still somewhat lost.

Well, okay, I'll admit, even though it's a little better than "Dig up monster, then profit", it still isn't completely independent. But I feel that Eggman's independence is the main issue with his characterization, not his personality.

For many people they see it as, they can make a greater sense of conflict with people who are so selfish they would do "heartless" things. Heartlessness is practically synonomous with selfishness. Even in the games Eggman acts on self interest not that much more or less than Julian. Oh maybe some people think he's more light hearted in HOW he does things but it's just as selfish in his ambitions for world domination as Julian. And again as I said, many people do not feel the need to make the story needlessly more complicated by adding a "good" and "humane" villain to the story.

Having a villain with a soft side of some sort doesn't necessarily make the story more complicated, as long as the villain stays firm in role of being a villain. That's why I feel that the solution to the problem lies simply in making Eggman a threat on his own, rather then darkening his character.

I don't personally that game Eggman has to commit genocide or enslave people like he does in the Archie comics in order to provide an increased sense of conflict. I just think that he needs to display himself as a force formidable enough to challenge Sonic without outside help.

Also...While it can be argued that game Eggman is as selfish as SatAM Julian, I don't feel that they are selfish for the same reasons. Julian just seems to get a sadistic rise and/or power trip of the simple act of hurting someone. While for game Eggman, violence seems to be just a means to an end, of accomplishing goals beyond "I like seeing people in pain."

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Not that this question is especially relevant to my main point but here goes anyway. The modern SoJ storyline is based off of the first SoJ game storyline. There are differences (especially noted the Chaotix) that would indicate that SoJ's game storyline in the past is a different entity. The same is pretty much true for the SoA verses in that a good deal of their information was based off the initial western manuals. However it's not the best comparison because the western storyline for the games would also take things from the cartoons and comics. Even the Japanese came up with their own story for spinball.

A spin-off isn't exactly a good example to use. xP;; Nevertheless, I understand you now, but I still don't agree. The main components of the Japanese canon seem to be consistent with what we are see now-- Earth, Eggman and Amy Rose, no roboticization, etc. and I'd argue that the current canon is merely a far deeper continuation of the older one. Do you have any examples of blatant contradictions minus the Chaotix?

You're missing the point. Even if what you're saying is true (and I'm sure a good look at the manuals again would demonstrate otherwise) people's general PERCEPTION of Sonic regardless of how rooted it was in what the manuals precisely said was changed. The sentiment that these people felt would be much akin therefore to the very thing many of you are arguing would happen today with a reboot.

I've already noted that point and understand. I'm arguing that there's a difference in the legitimacy of western fans' complaints about Adventure as opposed to our possible complaints about this hypothetical reboot. Sega dumping the games' canon(s) that most of the current fanbase is attached to is far different from people who projected arguably exclusive facts from one canon onto another finding out that a lot of what they believed wasn't entirely true for that particular canon in the first place, regardless of if our complaints are of a similar nature.

I really would like to know what makes Adventure's storyline so radically different from the one in the games' western canon that it's as separate an entity from them as you're making it out to be, because I simply don't get that impression taking into account what I know.

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"Okay sir, we've finally re-built the World Trade Center from scratch."

"Brilliant. Any problems?"

"Well, about a dozen bricks at the top weren't cemented in place properly. Should I replace them?"

"Nah, just knock the entire tower down and start over again."

I hope you see what I did there. Honestly, coming from some people this just gets absolutely ridiculous. You have a franchise that has a few problems, and rather than taking the time to tweak them and improve on the formula, there are people that want to drop every single thing learned from what we already have, and start over? What exactly is the sense in that? And the worst part is this isn't even the first time this "solution" has sprung up - matter of fact this happens every single time a Sonic game is released, and while it was at least somewhat justified around the '06 era, there wasn't much even back then that couldn't have been fixed with a few adjustments. The Sonic franchise is like a building - you wouldn't knock down a building for the sake of improving the old one when you could do the same with a few rennovations, would you?

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Also...While it can be argued that game Eggman is as selfish as SatAM Julian, I don't feel that they are selfish for the same reasons. Julian just seems to get a sadistic rise and/or power trip of the simple act of hurting someone. While for game Eggman, violence seems to be just a means to an end, of accomplishing goals beyond "I like seeing people in pain."

In SA2 he causes chaos on the whole planet and what is he doing? He's laughing. He's not worried about how scared and fearful the people are. He's lavishing in the hysteria he's managed to create. As for SatAM Robotnik it was to later be revealed in detail his basis for conquest was because he saw the animals as his inferiors. While we never see much time specifically dedicated to it in detail you can see him allude to this several times in SatAM based on how he addresses the Mobian characters. To him, taking their land and enslaving them is justified because he doesn't see them as his equals to begin with. And while a good many people can complain that it's not realistic it really REALLY is when you consider how that's played out in American history alone.

A spin-off isn't exactly a good example to use.

Many "spin offs" are used to elaborate on a given verse. So even if you're going to call it a spin off that doesn't automatically dismiss it's connection to the storyline.

xP;; Nevertheless, I understand you now, but I still don't agree. The main components of the Japanese canon seem to be consistent with what we are see now-- Earth, Eggman and Amy Rose, no roboticization, etc. and I'd argue that the current canon is merely a far deeper continuation of the older one. Do you have any examples of blatant contradictions minus the Chaotix?

Even Izuka has admitted they're sort of a reinvention. The ages are different than what was previously established about them as well (and even if we ignore that, the ages between the characters in the Japanese classic story and the modern version are different). Amy is 8 and then 12 in, but then for example, Tails is still 8. And Charmy would've had to have been what, 2 years old in Chaotix? I'd have to reread the manuals but yeah, Chaotix and what Izuka admitted does plays a role in why I feel the modern games are based off the Japanese portrayl of the classics and follow them to a great degree. Not exactly, but greatly nonetheless.

Sega dumping the games' canon(s) that most of the current fanbase is attached to is far different from people who projected arguably exclusive facts from one canon onto another finding out that a lot of what they believed wasn't entirely true for that particular canon in the first place, regardless of if our complaints are of a similar nature.

The situation is different in some regards, but the similarity in that personal perception on what IS Sonic is the same. They felt the exact same thing you're arguing you'd feel. Secondly, some of the differences between eastern and western storyline made big impacts. In the western storyline, Sonic and Tails are childhood friends, Sonic lives on Mobius (which you're not going to reconcile with the Japanese story by calling it Earth because the Japanese specifically state he's born on Christmas Island and Mobius is a separate planet). The cast is also different as well, alluding to Sonic's affiliations with the Freedom Fighters. You say they projected exclusive facts from one canon onto another, but a great deal of concepts like: the attitude, this new world Mobius, Robotnik enslaving the animals, a degredation in Sonic's attitude etc ? These all made it into the western canon for the games. These weren't just ideas that never influenced them.

Edited by Miko
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In SA2 he causes chaos on the whole planet and what is he doing? He's laughing. He's not worried about how scared and fearful the people are. He's lavishing in the hysteria he's managed to create. As for SatAM Robotnik it was to later be revealed in detail his basis for conquest was because he saw the animals as his inferiors. While we never see much time specifically dedicated to it in detail you can see him allude to this several times in SatAM based on how he addresses the Mobian characters. To him, taking their land and enslaving them is justified because he doesn't see them as his equals to begin with. And while a good many people can complain that it's not realistic it really REALLY is when you consider how that's played out in American history alone.

I think what you're trying to say about Julian in SatAM is that he does what he does because he is a colossal racist, and that using a villain like this can be beneficial in reminding people why racism is wrong. If so, then I see where you are coming from.

I still disagree with you for the most part about game Eggman, though. I can't deny that to some extent, he tries to hurt people for fun, but, in my mind at least, I don't think he fully comprehends the gravity of his actions. A problem with empathy, if you will. Mainly I'm basing this on the way that, in spite of all things he does in SA2, like threatening the planet, holding Amy hostage, and nearly killing Sonic, he seems quite horrified at what Gerald was going to do in the end, asking in a hurt tone, "...But did he really mean to destroy us?"

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I still disagree with you for the most part about game Eggman, though. I can't deny that to some extent, he tries to hurt people for fun, but, in my mind at least, I don't think he fully comprehends the gravity of his actions. A problem with empathy, if you will.

Though I'd probably argue that such a thing is true for any villain, especially racists like SatAM Robotnik. Hell, all of them whose prejudices lead to some form of discrimination.

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Many "spin offs" are used to elaborate on a given verse. So even if you're going to call it a spin off that doesn't automatically dismiss it's connection to the storyline.

But many Sonic spin-offs do not elaborate further on the information we have about current verse, standing as their own entities instead (The Storybook and Riders series are examples), and will sometimes even create plot holes. I'm sure you've been privy to many of the Blaze arguments we have as a result of Rush and Sonic '06, and I believe there was and is still confusion on whether or not Battle is canon due to Shadow's memories in the game. These games may have connections to the storyline, but I merely think this arbitrary and don't consider them completely reliable representations of what I believe to be the main canon.

Even Izuka has admitted they're sort of a reinvention. The ages are different than what was previously established about them as well. I'd have to reread the manuals but yeah, Chaotix plays a role in why I feel the modern games are based off the Japanese portrayl of the classics and follow them to a great degree. Not exactly, but greatly nonetheless.

I know what Iizuka has said and I've already recognized the characters are a blatant contradiction in regards to their past and current selves, but that doesn't really answer my question. In fact, I thought you were just arguing that the Japanese canon of yesterday was a different entity from the Japanese canon of today:

The modern SoJ storyline is based off of the first SoJ game storyline. There are differences (especially noted the Chaotix) that would indicate that SoJ's game storyline in the past is a different entity.

Am I misreading you again or did you make a mistake? -.-;;

The situation is different in some regards, but the similarity in that personal perception on what IS Sonic is the same. They felt the exact same thing you're arguing you'd feel.

Please don't speak for me; Just because I have a subjective perception of what Sonic "is" to me doesn't mean I believe Sega should always subscribe to it, because I don't believe they can or even should, and thus I wouldn't care for a reboot on a personal level. My problem with one would be that throwing all of the objective facts of the universe means I'm going to have to relearn everything all over again which takes time. In my mind, the objectivity of the situation would be a hassle, not because Sega went against my personal beliefs because they already do that more often than not anyways.

Secondly, some of the differences between eastern and western storyline made big impacts. In the western storyline, Sonic and Tails are childhood friends, Sonic lives on Mobius (which you're not going to reconcile with the Japanese story by calling it Earth because the Japanese specifically state he's born on Christmas Island and Mobius is a separate planet. The cast is also different as well, alluding to Sonic's affiliations with the Freedom Fighters.

First, they're technically childhood friends in both canons. xP;; Although I'm looking at the manual now and it doesn't say anything contradictory to either canon in that regard. In fact, nothing's elaborated on at all. All it says is that they're good friends.

Now, I don't understand the second point very well either, but here goes-- The Japanese canon doesn't allude to Mobius at all. Yes, it's said that Sonic is born on Christmas Island, but it would be fair to assume that said island is on the very planet that Sonic's had the majority of his adventures, which in later games we come to know is Earth, as it's never been stated that Sonic had to travel to Earth from a separate planet.

Also, the Freedom Fighters only appeared in Spinball which, as you can predict, I don't assume is canon for that reason among others. There's no mention of them in any other mainstream game manual, perhaps because their reasoning for existing isn't there as Eggman wasn't even an iron-fisted dictator. Your whole goal in the games is to stop that, after all.

You say they projected exclusive facts from one canon onto another, but a great deal of concepts like: the attitude, this new world Mobius (and most people didn't see it as Earth because they had no reason to), Robotnik enslaving the animals, a degredation in his iconic sense of attitude (and you can see some of that in action if you just hold Sonic still long enough in the classics), and his Freedom Fighter companions ? These all made it into the western canon for the games. These weren't just ideas that never influenced the games.

I've already addressed the other things, but such things as "attitude" are highly subjective and not really representative of an objective change in canon so much as different standards mostly resulting from the progressing of time. Sonic still has idle animations today, and they make him seem as much of a jerk as his Classic ones did. He continues to tap his foot, but I've seen him checking a fake watch and laying down with a smug look while falling asleep as well. That's as rude and attitudinal as his older animations, and thus to me Sonic's spirit under that example has hardly changed in the first place.

Regardless, I'd go on to argue that his supposed attitude in the games didn't live up to the hype that the marketing, television shows, and comics displayed. I merely see Sonic as impatient in the older games, the same way he is now, instead of really eliciting "attitude" like he was known for doing elsewhere.

Edited by Nepenthe
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The situation is different in some regards, but the similarity in that personal perception on what IS Sonic is the same. They felt the exact same thing you're arguing you'd feel. Secondly, some of the differences between eastern and western storyline made big impacts. In the western storyline, Sonic and Tails are childhood friends, Sonic lives on Mobius (which you're not going to reconcile with the Japanese story by calling it Earth because the Japanese specifically state he's born on Christmas Island and Mobius is a separate planet. The cast is also different as well, alluding to Sonic's affiliations with the Freedom Fighters. You say they projected exclusive facts from one canon onto another, but a great deal of concepts like: the attitude, this new world Mobius (and most people didn't see it as Earth because they had no reason to), Robotnik enslaving the animals, a degredation in his iconic sense of attitude (and you can see some of that in action if you just hold Sonic still long enough in the classics), and his Freedom Fighter companions ? These all made it into the western canon for the games. These weren't just ideas that never influenced the games.

Satam and AoSTH aren't canon, just the same as how Sonic X isn't canon. The Freedom Fighters and Mobius, etc were western concepts, yes, but do remember that most of the official Sonic games were made by SoJ, and thus based around the Japanese storyline. The only real prominent western concepts were from Aosth, Satam and the comics, and none of those aren't really part of official canon. The only real changes in the storyline that were in the games was Eggman's name, and that is still preserved today, in fact making the western name his real name and Eggman his alias.

In SA2 he causes chaos on the whole planet and what is he doing? He's laughing. He's not worried about how scared and fearful the people are. He's lavishing in the hysteria he's managed to create. As for SatAM Robotnik it was to later be revealed in detail his basis for conquest was because he saw the animals as his inferiors. While we never see much time specifically dedicated to it in detail you can see him allude to this several times in SatAM based on how he addresses the Mobian characters. To him, taking their land and enslaving them is justified because he doesn't see them as his equals to begin with. And while a good many people can complain that it's not realistic it really REALLY is when you consider how that's played out in American history alone.

That's an over exaggeration. All he did was blow up the moon to scare the people and threaten them to get what he wants. He didn't hurt anybody, and even if he did end up firing the Eclipse Canon at Earth, I doubt he'd aim it at any major population if his personality is anything to go by.

It's no where as bad as Satam Robotnik raiding entire countries, kidnapping it's inhabitants and breaking apart countless families, and turning them into mindless slaves to build his empire on top of their own homes.

While Eggman shows to have standards at the end of SA2 and wouldn't go as far as to mindlessly destroy everyone, SaTAM Robotnik was as ruthless and power hungry as the next generic villain.

Even Izuka has admitted they're sort of a reinvention. The ages are different than what was previously established about them as well (and even if we ignore that, the ages between the characters in the Japanese classic story and the modern version are different). Amy is 8 and then 12 in, but then for example, Tails is still 8. And Charmy would've had to have been what, 2 years old in Chaotix? I'd have to reread the manuals but yeah, Chaotix and what Izuka admitted does plays a role in why I feel the modern games are based off the Japanese portrayl of the classics and follow them to a great degree. Not exactly, but greatly nonetheless.

This is true, but then again, Amy and the Chaotix(the only significant age changes) weren't really established characters until Adventure, Heroes for Chaotix, so it's arguably not exactly a huge change.

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