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Awoo.

Maybe Sonic needs a reboot?


Dummy Bear

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I disagree. Too many people perceive Sonic to be for example "all about the speed" and will not be able to get him out of that classification (and all the baggage that comes with it ) unless you reboot the series.

You're assuming all people with preferences are completely incapable of looking at something that doesn't cater to them and giving credit where credit is due which, especially as one who subscribes to the perception you called out, is rather, um, insulting? xP;;

Irregardless, one's interpretations and preferences about a work should not have any bearing on its objective quality or its ability to appeal to the masses, and vice versa; Classic fans probably wouldn't be as up in arms so much if the new material was better developed and presented, and I think I'm fair in assuming a great deal of modern fans don't hate the classics from an objective viewpoint. Quality, or a lack thereof, transcends the subjectivity of the matter, and thus a reboot will not absolutely ensure that Sonic Team will do any better a job than what they've been doing. I mean, I thought Sonic '06 was proof enough of that.

Edited by Nepenthe
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No one's alienating them. It's not to say they'd have to totally abandon their older fans but they need to reinvent him to also welcome people who aren't them. That is to say, SEGA needs flexible gameplay. It needs to be able to represent the company's endeavors to do anything, not JUST what they'd been doing in 2D. So, with that said rebooting would be a lot less alienating because there's a greater capacity to acknowledge a lot more people.

I can't help but say it'd be the exact opposite. Rebooting the series means changing everything that the existing fans have grown to enjoy and accept as the norm, so getting rid of all that and making their once lovable staples completely different...... need I explain more?

And again, everything you stated is all things that do not require a reboot, just quality games.

Edited by VirgoTheCougar
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It's difficult to develop games with a sense of inspiration when you're worked like youre in a sweatshop and don't have much leg room in the way of what you can create.

Here's the thing, though: Sonic Team practically tells Sega what they are going to do with Sonic. They have proven for years now that they do they want when it comes to the franchise (darker and edgier gunplay, half a game being a shallow beat 'em up, time travel plots, "damn 4th chaos emerald," hardcore bestiality*), so rebooting to rid the fanbase of preconceived notions won't lift any burden of expectations from the division because they seemingly ignore them anyways.

*This is obviously a joke, but the actual circumstance was still idiotic.

Edited by Tornado
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I personally think Sonic needs to be mainly 2D. Sonic Rush was a nice start. And if they could make a console Sonic with 3D graphics but still a 2D side scroller, It would be pretty good. They need to think put more effort into level design as well. As I've stated before, the Advance games had terrible level design in my opinion. Rush was alright, but the games got old rather quick. I finished them both but never had the desire to replay through them yet. I have yet to play Sonic Unleashed, but from what I've seen of it, I think Sega were on to something with the normal Sonic stages anyway. They just have to find where Sonic fits in with this new generation. And I have full faith that they will soon.

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A great deal of this argument seems based off of a disagreement as to what a reboot actually entails. At the very least, a reboot typically entails a new continuity being created that ignores all previous continuity. This can be anywhere from telling a new story set before previously created stories that the new story is not intended to lead into to, all the way to a complete change in focus and tone. For example, the new MechWarrior includes locations and factions from previous games, isn't making an effort to remain accurate to them, but still plays like you would expect a MechWarrior game to. On the other hand, the new Spyro games are 3rd person action games rather than platformers (They allow you to fly whenever you want to), and it appears to be trying to create a darker tone. I consider the change in tone laughable considering that Spyro was essentially a toddler in the first three games, and he's still the same size in the new ones. These are by no means the only types of reboots, they are only there to show how broadly used the term "reboot" is. Honestly, I think the term "reboot" is used far to commonly. A better description of most of them would be "reimagining" (Battlestar Galactica) or "alternate continuity" (Batman Begins), primarily because the new canon usually doesn't outright replace the old continuity, often being either too time displaced or in a different medium thus not replacing the original continuity.

There are also these sort of semi reboots, which ignore only some of the continuity. The new Rocky movie, "Rocky Balboa" ignores the events of Rocky V. I think that's kind of what Sonic needs. Specifically, I think they should pick up roughly where Sonic 3K left off. The remnants of the Death Egg 2 are still in orbit, and Eggman has just been denied the Master Emerald and seen the same happen to his underlings. Does that mean that I want all the characters introduced after that point in time declared nonexistent? No, because the Sonic "canon" tends to be rather loose, you can basically make with it whatever you want. Assuming that Sega actually finds someone who can write for Sonic, the crappy useless characters wouldn't ever be seen again because there wouldn't be a point to them making an appearance. (Was there ever really a point to Rouge when the classic villain is already a jewel thief?). Before anyone says that would prevent Knuckles from showing up, it seems to me as thought "Stealing the Master Emerald" seems to be a pretty good way to power something big. He can even take it somewhere else. I'm tired. I might add to this tomorrow.

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I've not played many of the 3D games so I can't really comment on them, however I think Sega just need to make a good game, rather than reboot the series. The only way for a game to be successful now, sadly, is for it to be 3D. 2D doesn't seem to be accepted anymore. Once Sega figure out how to make a good 3D Sonic game hopefully all else will fall into place.

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If you ask me, a series reboot would be pointless. All it would really affect would be the plot and setting, the games themselves wouldn't change a bit. All it would do is just piss off most of the current fans.

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I think that's kind of what Sonic needs. Specifically, I think they should pick up roughly where Sonic 3K left off. The remnants of the Death Egg 2 are still in orbit, and Eggman has just been denied the Master Emerald and seen the same happen to his underlings. Does that mean that I want all the characters introduced after that point in time declared nonexistent? No, because the Sonic "canon" tends to be rather loose, you can basically make with it whatever you want. Assuming that Sega actually finds someone who can write for Sonic, the crappy useless characters wouldn't ever be seen again because there wouldn't be a point to them making an appearance. (Was there ever really a point to Rouge when the classic villain is already a jewel thief?). Before anyone says that would prevent Knuckles from showing up, it seems to me as thought "Stealing the Master Emerald" seems to be a pretty good way to power something big. He can even take it somewhere else. I'm tired. I might add to this tomorrow.

It could be possible to make a game or a line of games that follow a different continuity from previous games as sort of spinoffs or the like without abandoning the already set continuity.

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Making another 2D game, similar to the old days? Not a bad idea. Rebooting the series altogether? Not an absolutely terrible idea, but just not for the right reasons. If we were to just "reboot" a game, what exactly will that solve? Will it stop the "reboot the series" whores from bitching, probably, but what will come out of THAT exactly. Sure Sonic's landscape in 2D has been proven superior, but it shouldn't be a last resort, the 2Ds are much more than that.

There's really not much of an argument here. And even tho I actually do like some of the 3D games, all that really needs to be done is that they just need to improve the next games altogether. And if Unleashed has taught us anything, is that there can be improvement made for the games and room for it as well, and Unleashed has given alot of us that confidence that the next game is sure to be a good quality title. No guarantees, sure, but confidence.

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This sounds like an a good excuse for the bad quality of the games!(don't get me wrong I have alot of fun with every Sonic game even '06)

They could just say the bad things that annoy people are part of the new Sonic.

And it would scare away fans.

Look at Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts. Its not that bad of a game, but its to different than the others and instead of winning new buyers it lost alot of old ones.

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I'd like to see a mostly side scrolling game for a major console. I don't understand why they haven't done it. I actually liked the bosses in Rush, too, with their 3D elements. I don't understand why a 2D game with 3D graphics isn't possible.

I suppose though, Unleashed was a lot like that, and that didn't impress me.

If it wasn't for the slowness between levels and the night levels, perhaps I'd like Unleashed. But I can't help feeling like I'm not really doing anything when I play it. And the poor graphics and Sonic's jerky response on the PS2 version really don't help.

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I'd like to see a mostly side scrolling game for a major console. I don't understand why they haven't done it. I actually liked the bosses in Rush, too, with their 3D elements. I don't understand why a 2D game with 3D graphics isn't possible.

It is, but remember, just because it's 2D doesn't mean it'll somehow be good.

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It is, but remember, just because it's 2D doesn't mean it'll somehow be good.

That is one thing I will never understand about most of the 2D fans. Gimmicks such as the werehog and guns would suck to most people no matter what dimension they're in. 2D isn't some magic wand that'll magically rid of those gimmicks.

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Sonic's only true success has been in 2D, though. And all the "problems" surround it being 3D.

Prior to gimmicks, it's not like SA and SA2 were seen as excellent games by the masses.

I just think it's odd that it's taken them till Unleashed to try it. That's all.

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Sonic's only true success has been in 2D, though. And all the "problems" surround it being 3D.

Prior to gimmicks, it's not like SA and SA2 were seen as excellent games by the masses.

I just think it's odd that it's taken them till Unleashed to try it. That's all.

I could've sworn they were... At least the Dreamcast originals anyway.

Then came the GameCube rereleases and everyone started becoming more critical for some reason...

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Sonic's only true success has been in 2D, though. And all the "problems" surround it being 3D.

Here's the thing, simply making a Sonic game in 2D is not going to automatically make it good, nor is making it 2D going to make the game rid of all the problems of 3D.

Prior to gimmicks, it's not like SA and SA2 were seen as excellent games by the masses.

Were you even around when the Dreamcast launched, or are you basing this all on the Gamecube re-releases?

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Here's the thing, simply making a Sonic game in 2D is not going to automatically make it good, nor is making it 2D going to make the game rid of all the problems of 3D.

I didn't say it would.

Were you even around when the Dreamcast launched, or are you basing this all on the Gamecube re-releases?

No, I'm only 8 years old.

When it came out, I ignored it, and I liked Sonic. It took me many years before I got myself a pre-owned one. I didn't know anyone who owned one, at the time of it's release. And, outside of Sonicy friends, I only know of one person who owns/owned one now.

I recall some slight excitement before the game's release, but as soon as it was released, all fell silent.

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No, I'm only 8 years old.

When it came out, I ignored it, and I liked Sonic. It took me many years before I got myself a pre-owned one. I didn't know anyone who owned one, at the time of it's release. And, outside of Sonicy friends, I only know of one person who owns/owned one now.

I recall some slight excitement before the game's release, but as soon as it was released, all fell silent.

The Dreamcast died shortly after it took off, despite it's well reception, even today, so it's no wonder that some people may have fell on deaf ears if they weren't paying attention to the system. Or it may have just been because of your general area during it's release because it's fight against the PS2 was actually very big.

Sonic Adventure itself, was one of it's best sellers, if I'm correct, and was quite a hit when it was released.

I didn't say it would.

Then what are you saying? Cause what I interpreted from your post was that Sonic games have only really been good in 2D. It sounds like your saying that they were only good because they were 2D.

EDIT: In my post, by "problems", I was referring to the gimmicks and the like. Just making sure I'm not being too vauge.

Edited by VirgoTheCougar
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What I was trying to say was that the biggest successes have been 2D. And I think it's more than coincidence.

Is there anyone who doesn't like Rush? And more importantly, non-fans seem to like it too. Because it's GOOD. Because it doesn't have any of the problems that the 3D games have and it's genuinly good fun to play. It feels like nothing other than pure Sonic. I agree that a lot of those "problems" with the 3D games aren't related to the fact that they are 3D, such as gimmicks.

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Sonic Team already does whatever the hell they want. What difference would more freedom give them?

1. You're assuming a reinvention has simply to do with Sonic's gameplay. It can also mean welcoming new blood and changing the mythos. Or even destroying the notion of continuity altogether with each game being it's own unique story. Speaking of new blood they're probably going to need this anyway because Sonic Team doesn't seem capable of making enough levels per game on their own.

2. Sonic Team's working conditions are allegedly very poor. So, this will also need to change.

3. Sonic Team doesn't always seem to do whatever they want. A lot of their games seem to try facilitating for example the speed element at the expense of other ideas to explore (many in the modern day will probably require 360 level exploration) because as I've said people associate that too much with who Sonic is. And in addition rebooting will give them a means to introduce (or reintroduce) some characters who are not just Sonic but better.

A lot of people actually. And yes he DID have a storyline. Go back and play Sonic 3, Sonic and Knuckles, Sonic 2, Sonic 1.

There wasn't a story in the sense there was a universally agreed concept of Sonic. If you look at the manuals for example, the stories are obviously different even though they maintained some similarities.

Again, how is a reboot going to fix that?

Sonic will be able to be taken seriously in anything. Not just speedy platforming games. This means Sonic team and any new blood that follows will have the flexibility to do anything they're inspired to do, or to at the very least make a game that is somewhat decent given the deadlines that they'll have to meet for Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony.

And doesn't showcasing the companies strengths mean making good quality games?

It does, but it's not as simple as saying "oh well Sonic can keep on the same tangent he is, they just need to make good games." when part of the reason they're not doing good games is because he's on this tangent.

No, they really wouldn't. Here's how it would play out.

Sonic fan: "Have you played the new Sonic?"

Non-interested fellow gamer: "No, not really into Sonic."

Sonic fan: "Ah! But they rebooted it! It's all new! Bet you want to try it now, huh?"

Non-interested fellow gamer: "No, not really into Sonic."

If a Sonic fan asks How will you know if you're not into this unless you try it? They rebooted it, no more overflow of characters, they're introducing a whole new style of gameplay and its unrelated to the latest games that have come out. While there are yes some people who will remain stuck in their bubble that doesn't mean everyone's going to react this way.

I would hate to have a reboot personally. I really like the world and characters they've established. They just need to get to work with using them to their full potential.

I would hate to have a reboot personally. I really like the world and characters they've established. They just need to get to work with using them to their full potential.

I think that the characters and storyline haven't done much to inspire people to be interested in Sonic. I can't say I'm all that interested in it either. Nor are they all that great a hook for people who could be introduced to Sonic through other media such as television or books. Frankly I don't even see a great deal of them having much in the way of potential and many of them are just here because they got a lot of noteriety in one game but were not especially planned for prolonged use.

With Sonic, who's tried to reinvent himself so many times, it would just be more of "Hey guys! Look at the NEW Sonic!" We've seen it before.

If you said "reboot" I think a lot of people would understand the change to be much greater than "reinvent." If I said I were going to reinvent the way Sonic stories are told, that's very different than saying "I'm going to reboot the Sonic mythos."

You're assuming all people with preferences are completely incapable of looking at something that doesn't cater to them and giving credit where credit is due

Yes they can "look" at it but those people are probably not going to be steady subscribers to the fanbase since it doesn't cater to them. Which if anything is what SEGA needs to be aiming for. A solid and larger fanbase. Sonic as his "speedy" gameplay is presently defined is not all THAT appealing to kids compared to say 360 level exploration that'd encourage him to slow down.sure, I'd suggest optional playability, but at the same time that won't solve all of Sonic's problems.

Rebooting the series means changing everything that the existing fans have grown to enjoy and accept as the norm, so getting rid of all that and making their once lovable staples completely different...... need I explain more?

The irony is, we had the exact same thing happen in 1999 and not one person here is really complaining about WHAT SEGA did. Considering the fact that while yes, a mainstream story would be needed, it was based predominantly on the Japanese story. A story that, was not even popular in Japan and they essentially tossed aside western concepts of the Sonic mythos that were at the time a lot more popular. If you can perceive people as "living with it" then, I'm not convinced they couldn't do the same now. Especially when Sonic is not as reknown as he used to be.

Nights could've used a reboot instead of JoD, because the original became kind of forgotten. Don't think it's for Sonic though.

Except Sonic ISN'T as remembered by the general public. Oh in game circles perhaps but as a household name? Heck no. And even in the game circles few people actually appreciate the gameplay and mythos behind this character.

Gimmicks such as the werehog and guns would suck to most people no matter what dimension they're in

Again people, there is no need to discard information contrary to your beleifs. Werehog Sonic was disliked by adults and maybe older teens. This is why when you go online we tend to think EVERYBODY hated the idea because all the reviewers and the overwhelming majority of people online are much older than the children the werehog Sonic feature was aimed to please.

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I know loads of people that aren't Sonic fans that have Adventure 1/2.

Two of them have them on Dreamcast.

>>

<<

I'll leave now.

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What I was trying to say was that the biggest successes have been 2D. And I think it's more than coincidence.

Is there anyone who doesn't like Rush? And more importantly, non-fans seem to like it too.

Yes: Sonic Retro.

ZING!

Edit:

1. You're assuming a reinvention has simply to do with Sonic's gameplay. It can also mean welcoming new blood and changing the mythos. Or even destroying the notion of continuity altogether with each game being it's own unique story. Speaking of new blood they're probably going to need this anyway because Sonic Team doesn't seem capable of making enough levels per game on their own.

2. Sonic Team's working conditions are allegedly very poor. So, this will also need to change.

3. Sonic Team doesn't always seem to do whatever they want. A lot of their games seem to try facilitating for example the speed element at the expense of other ideas to explore (many in the modern day will probably require 360 level exploration) because as I've said people associate that too much with who Sonic is. And in addition rebooting will give them a means to introduce (or reintroduce) some characters who are not just Sonic but better.

There wasn't a story in the sense there was a universally agreed concept of Sonic. If you look at the manuals for example, the stories are obviously different even though they maintained some similarities.

Sonic will be able to be taken seriously in anything. Not just speedy platforming games. This means Sonic team and any new blood that follows will have the flexibility to do anything they're inspired to do, or to at the very least make a game that is somewhat decent given the deadlines that they'll have to meet for Microsoft, Nintendo and Sony.

It does, but it's not as simple as saying "oh well Sonic can keep on the same tangent he is, they just need to make good games." when part of the reason they're not doing good games is because he's on this tangent.

If a Sonic fan asks How will you know if you're not into this unless you try it? They rebooted it, no more overflow of characters, they're introducing a whole new style of gameplay and its unrelated to the latest games that have come out. While there are yes some people who will remain stuck in their bubble that doesn't mean everyone's going to react this way.

I think that the characters and storyline haven't done much to inspire people to be interested in Sonic. I can't say I'm all that interested in it either. Nor are they all that great a hook for people who could be introduced to Sonic through other media such as television or books. Frankly I don't even see a great deal of them having much in the way of potential and many of them are just here because they got a lot of noteriety in one game but were not especially planned for prolonged use.

If you said "reboot" I think a lot of people would understand the change to be much greater than "reinvent." If I said I were going to reinvent the way Sonic stories are told, that's very different than saying "I'm going to reboot the Sonic mythos."

Yes they can "look" at it but those people are probably not going to be steady subscribers to the fanbase since it doesn't cater to them. Which if anything is what SEGA needs to be aiming for. A solid and larger fanbase. Sonic as his "speedy" gameplay is presently defined is not all THAT appealing to kids compared to say 360 level exploration that'd encourage him to slow down.sure, I'd suggest optional playability, but at the same time that won't solve all of Sonic's problems.

The irony is, we had the exact same thing happen in 1999 and not one person here is really complaining about WHAT SEGA did. Considering the fact that while yes, a mainstream story would be needed, it was based predominantly on the Japanese story. A story that, was not even popular in Japan and they essentially tossed aside western concepts of the Sonic mythos that were at the time a lot more popular. If you can perceive people as "living with it" then, I'm not convinced they couldn't do the same now. Especially when Sonic is not as reknown as he used to be.

Except Sonic ISN'T as remembered by the general public. Oh in game circles perhaps but as a household name? Heck no. And even in the game circles few people actually appreciate the gameplay and mythos behind this character.

Again people, there is no need to discard information contrary to your beleifs. Werehog Sonic was disliked by adults and maybe older teens. This is why when you go online we tend to think EVERYBODY hated the idea because all the reviewers and the overwhelming majority of people online are much older than the children the werehog Sonic feature was aimed to please.

Hence why I said MOST people and not everybody.

Personally, I liked the Werehog myself.

Edited by Slasher
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Yes they can "look" at it but those people are probably not going to be steady subscribers to the fanbase since it doesn't cater to them. Which if anything is what SEGA needs to be aiming for. A solid and larger fanbase. Sonic as his "speedy" gameplay is presently defined is not all THAT appealing to kids compared to say 360 level exploration that'd encourage him to slow down.sure, I'd suggest optional playability, but at the same time that won't solve all of Sonic's problems.

Most people are never going to be steady subscribers to any fanbase; Hardcore fanbases are minority demographics. Irregardless, you completely missed my point. A good game is a good game, its quality not dependent on its existing aesthetics, a person's preferences, or whether or not it's a reboot. You're ignoring the possibilities that Sonic Team are just as likely, if not more, to fuck up a Sonic game with completely new components than they are simply perfecting their current vision. If anything, Sonic '06 should have taught us the irrelevance of new aesthetics to quality.

And what? Kids loved Unleashed in all of its parts, and iirc an early playtest revealed that kids actually wanted Sonic to go faster than what he already does. Saying kids don't like modern Sonic when they undoubtedly buy it and love it more than we do is quite odd.

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What do you think of a reboot?

Heck no! Sonic has his problems, all series do. There was Mario Sunshine for Mario, PS2^ games for Crash, and Enter the Dragonfly^ for Spyro; it's the natural order of things. Not all games are perfect.

I think the only thing a reboot would solve is quality; take the Legend of Spyro for example. Design wise, it was a fabulous game. Decent controls, graphics, and polish. However, while it has its fans, half the fanbase HATES it because it took the Spyro they all knew and loved, and threw it out the window. Spyro wasn't a platformer anymore, but a combat-heavey game. Spyro wasn't a young fiesty dragon, but a legendary sacred dragon. Spyro's world, friends, gameplay, and personality were sacrificed for quality. I'd rather have a slightly sub-par Sonic game than a whole new genre and game altogher.

Yes, I know some people don't like 'new-Sonic', but he's grown on me (not refering to the gameplay). Sonic, to me, is a teenage hedgehog with an attitude and a heart of gold. He has loyal friends, like Tails, and friece rivalrys, like Shadow. I as of now, I wouldn't have it any other way. ;)

[/opinon]

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The irony is, we had the exact same thing happen in 1999 and not one person here is really complaining about WHAT SEGA did.

No, no, no no no no no no NO they didn't. We still had Eggman, we still had Tails, we still had Knuckles, we still had Amy, we still had rings, Chaos Emeralds, Angel Island, everything. I don't know how your trying to consider that a reboot.

Considering the fact that while yes, a mainstream story would be needed, it was based predominantly on the Japanese story. A story that, was not even popular in Japan and they essentially tossed aside western concepts of the Sonic mythos that were at the time a lot more popular. If you can perceive people as "living with it" then, I'm not convinced they couldn't do the same now. Especially when Sonic is not as reknown as he used to be.

You mean the name Robotnik? Cause the last time I checked, it was still there.

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