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Maybe Sonic needs a reboot?


Dummy Bear

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In my insomnia, I've been thinking of this discussion, this statement in particular:

unless of course I refute with facts, which you're ignoring I've done to make yourself feel better.

So, in fairness to Miko I went over every post he has made in this thread and attempted to find the facts that he used to support each of his claims. Too much free time on my hands? You bet your ass, but I can't sleep and can't think of anything better to do. I also feel guilt for being a main catalyst in this off topic idiocy in the first place.

First, the idea that started this whole mess:

"The SatAM Freedom Fighters were canon to the story of Spinball"

Lets ignore, for a second, the obvious stylistic problems with the previously mentioned mini games, which I will cover later. Lets even ignore that the idea of Sonic freeing the Freedom Fighters literally by playing a real pinball machine makes no sense in the story's context the way it is presented, which is something that has been beat to death yet Miko has ignored each time. Lets instead focus the objective, irrefutable fact (that surprisingly no one has brought up) that Sonic performs very similar actions in-game as one of the sub-goals to one level. Surely, if the actual Freedom Fighters were meant to be rescued as part of the game's plot, said rescue would have occurred in the level with entire sections completely dedicated to rescuing animals trapped in cages. But it doesn't. It quite clearly occurs during a sequence-breaking mini game that is a completely different, 4th-wall-breaking style.

Now lets look at the cold hard facts Miko presented to support his case:

"The Freedom Fighters saved Sonic from drowning [in the beginning of the game, according to the manual]"

Not only is this never shown to happen in game, but it is in fact an assumption based of the U.S. manual from the throwaway line "Sonic had friends in wet places" that is presented by Miko as meaning "the Freedom Fighters saved Sonic from drowning." Again, please ignore that it is a huge plothole for the characters who saved Sonic in the beginning of the game to be presented as if they were trapped from the start; and ignore that this is yet another point that Miko asspulled an answer to when called on it. Lets instead focus on how Miko took a huge assumption on his part and presented it as a fact in order to support his argument when it wasn't by any definition of the word. But I'll let it slide. Its an easy mistake, and I'll only dock him one of his purported "facts" that he apparently refuted everyone with.

Lets go to the next one:

"Sonic Spinball was canon because the emerald discrepancy appeared in other games"

This one is fairly simple: In game events of Sonic 3 retcon the events of Sonic 1 into the series always having a constant number of different colored emeralds, even though it does introduce heavy Gameplay and Story Segregation. Sonic Spinball with its hilarious-incorrect emerald count and colors simply does not fit, and it fits considerably worse than Sonic 1 because Sonic 1 contains easily-explainable situations that are not too far of a stretch to deem acceptable; with the added bonus that it fits nicely with Sonic 2 having a Super Sonic and Sonic 1 not having one.

So, let

Edited by Tornado
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I don't think it needs a reboot, even after all the inconsistencies. Some of the games should obviously be discarded because they can't fit and some minor plotholes dismissed as well.

The Blaze / Silver argument can be fanwanked. Neither Sonic or Blaze remember each other in 06, so we can only have two options. 06 was before Rush or one of them is uncannon. If 06 was before Rush, then all is settled well. The events are wiped out and Sonic cannot remember Blaze. The same with Blaze, and she was never sent into another dimension in the first place. She's in the future (which can be fanwanked as a different dimension) and she's a princess there, for whatever reason. It explains Nega and even Silver when he shows up in the Rival series (I think. I don't remember these two well, so I may be wrong). Even Silver and Blaze can still be best friends in this scenario. It needs a lot of fanwank so who knows.

Even so, it doesn't need a reboot. If everything else fails, some of them are uncannon, others aren't. It's not a big deal.

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For the love of God, I hope the Sonic series does NOT get rebooted. The series already has an array of established characters and a interesting universe to explore, and I appreciate them for being the way they are. Throwing it all away because of its "mostly negative" perception is completely stupid. Some of you think that Sega's going for a cheap buck now? Well, restarting the series and pretend that the old 'verse doesn't exist will TRULY show that Sega's desperate for dough and that Sega TRULY believes that the series is dying. Let the characters and universe continue to grow and continue to establish as each game gets developed. Don't really go for a cheap buck and completely restart the series from scratch and pretend it doesn't exist.

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It says the game takes place on Mobius, but gives no reason to believe that they left a different planet to get to this one. I would think that space travel is significant enough to make it into the manual.

If it was the same planet then they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of calling it Mobius. In addition, locations outlined in the JP games are locations that are actually on Earth (South Island for example). It's obvious that if the planet is not called Earth like it is in the JP version and by extension the newer games, then the planet being talked about is different.

Lets ignore, for a second, the obvious stylistic problems with the previously mentioned mini games, which I will cover later. Lets even ignore that the idea of Sonic freeing the Freedom Fighters literally by playing a real pinball machine makes no sense in the story's context the way it is presented, which is something that has been beat to death yet Miko has ignored each time

It's not a matter of ignoring them. I've actually responded to these questions. Having to play a pinball machine to free the FFs makes no more sense than Eggman basing many of his badniks and parts of his conquered terrirtories on games. The whole defense for every area of the compound is mentioned to be a pinball system, and by extension that would apply to the room used for the bonus stage. So making Sonic sort through saving his friends would be by extension very beleivable since Eggman has modeled his things based on things a person could play with (like toys). You're asking for how this would be at all consistent with the villain's loving to play game's when how many inconsistencies can we find between the classic JP characterization and the modern Eggman?

Not only is this never shown to happen in game, but it is in fact an assumption based of the U.S. manual from the throwaway line "Sonic had friends in wet places" that is presented by Miko as meaning "the Freedom Fighters saved Sonic from drowning." Again, please ignore that it is a huge plothole for the characters who saved Sonic in the beginning of the game to be presented as if they were trapped from the start;

It's not a plothole because they weren't trapped from the start. There's nothing that states they were trapped from the start, and seems to be little beyond a personal assumption. Especially since Tails (who was also among them) is not trapped from the start.

and ignore that this is yet another point that Miko asspulled an answer to when called on it.

I don't recall my ever being called on it, because quite frankly, that's a personal assumption that doesn't seem to hold any weight in the manuals or in anything noted in game.

Surely, if the actual Freedom Fighters were meant to be rescued as part of the game's plot, said rescue would have occurred in the level with entire sections completely dedicated to rescuing animals trapped in cages.

Again, your assuming that in order to have any relevance to the mission objective (to save the animals) they HAVE to have entire sections dedicated to rescuing them. Why is this? And even when following this logic, the bonus which will occurs at the end of the level anyway, is an section dedicated to rescuing animals. In addition I thought I might use this moment we follow the logic you've been going on about. You've been saying what's depicted in manuals essentially don't matter, and that bonuses don't count. Examples being this:

Not only is this never shown to happen in game

This is your response to the hypothetical consideration that the FFs are mentioned in the manual as saving Sonic.

...So if only in-game matters, and the chaos emeralds only had their existence and relevance to the plot in-game verified by optional bonus levels they would have absolutely no relvance to story/game. I guess that means chaos emeralds as a concept and the bulk of your arguement against Spinball is also gone.

This one is fairly simple: In game events of Sonic 3 retcon the events of Sonic 1 into the series always having a constant number of different colored emeralds, even though it does introduce heavy Gameplay and Story Segregation.

You're just repeating your proposition for what the fifth..tenth time now without actually responding to the refutation? The game events in Sonic 3 don't retcon the events of Sonic 1. Sonic 3 like Sonic 2 have emeralds specific to it's own location, which you can figure out by reading the manuals like I'd said (and I won't bother going into the details of the manuals as I've done several times before). Yes there are 7 emeralds with 7 distinct colors in Sonic 3&K but nowhere is it explicitly stated that there are only 7 in the entire world and that that they MUST all have different colors and be in an order of 7. This an assumption you pull out of your ass without anything explicitly stated from the games themselves.

But hypothetically speaking let's assume Sonic 3 did retcon Sonic 1 (which it didn't so don't get too comfortable with this tangent as I know you'll probably try to) Sonic Spinball takes place on a separate planet. So even if Sonic 3 retcons the properties and total numbers of emeralds for Earth (which it didn't), it makes no difference because Spinball takes place elsewhere.

The problem with this is large: In game events of Sonic 3 show that each location does not have its own set of emeralds.

how does it show this?

Furthermore, the
Edited by Miko
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If it was the same planet then they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of calling it Mobius. In addition, locations outlined in the JP games are locations that are actually on Earth (South Island for example). It's obvious that if the planet is not called Earth like it is in the JP version and by extension the newer games, then the planet being talked about is different.
Yes that is the point. It is a different planet.

The problem is that they did not travel to it. The manual says nothing about Eggman or Sonic and Tails hopping on a spaceship and traveling to Planet Mobius. It isn't even written to imply that they did; it's written to the same effect as the Western manual, where Mobius is Sonic's (and everyone else's) home planet and no space travel is involved.

You're assuming your position is true and warping the facts to fit it.

... If in-game mention needs to occur to verify a concept, chaos emeralds would only have their existence verified by optional bonus levels and therefore have absolutely no relvance to story/game. I guess that means chaos emeralds as a concept and the bulk of your arguement against Spinball is gone.
But the emeralds do have impact in the game and outside of the special stages. They affect the ending of the games as well as the start of S3&K. Edited by Diogenes
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If it was the same planet then they wouldn't have gone through the trouble of calling it Mobius. In addition, locations outlined in the JP games are locations that are actually on Earth (South Island for example). It's obvious that if the planet is not called Earth like it is in the JP version and by extension the newer games, then the planet being talked about is different.

I didn't mean to imply it was the same Planet. If the game takes place on a different planet without any implication of traveling there, it's obviously an alternate 'verse.

...So, how about that hypothetical reboot?

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Ladies and gentlemen, he's still going! There's no stopping him!

On topic:

If they were to reboot the franchise's timeline, how would they go about announcing it? Would they release Sonic: Rebirth or go the way of the recent Star Trek film and make a canonical timeline change?

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Yes that is the point. It is a different planet.

The problem is that they did not travel to it.

My problem here is that you're assuming they didn't travel by your already created opinion it's not canon. This also in turn would create a somewhat circular logic if this is the entire basis for assuming it's not canon. If you however do believe it is canon and notice that the name is Mobius and not Earth, then the change in name implies greatly that space travel occurred.

Edited by Miko
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I think that there may need to be a re-invention of Sonic, one that only has Sonic and Tails as the "central cast". Amy's not the 'main' love interst anymore and isn't expected to be in every game along with Knuckles, Shadow, Rouge and whoever else SoJ's chucked out in recent years. This would allow game developers to freely market different kinds of games and characters without always having to shoe-horn some who haven't/may not necessarily fair as well in certain countries.

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I wouldn't mind Mobius being retconned as a name for the province where the classic games took place, like the "Mobius Islands" or something.

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This would allow game developers to freely market different kinds of games and characters without always having to shoe-horn some who haven't/may not necessarily fair as well in certain countries.

Not really, they could still do it the way it is now. People may expect certain characters to be guaranteed in a game, but it's really all up to the developers to decide whether a character should be in a game.

Edited by VirgoTheCougar
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My problem here is that you're assuming they didn't travel by your already created opinion it's not canon.
I'm assuming they didn't travel because it doesn't say they traveled and is written to the same effect in an instance where we know they didn't travel (the Western manual). Which I said in my last post.

If you however do believe it is canon and notice that the name is Mobius and not Earth, then the change in name implies greatly that space travel occurred.
But this is putting the cart before the horse. You need to draw the conclusion from the facts, not invent baseless theories to reshape the facts to fit a conclusion you already believe.
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I'm assuming they didn't travel because it doesn't say they traveled and is written to the same effect in an instance where we know they didn't travel (the Western manual). Which I said in my last post.

No no. The western manuals prior to Spinball considered Mobius the same planet unlike the JP manuals and are in relation to the JP story an entirely separate story altogether and thusly can't be used to describe the JP manual to the JP story. They didn't explicitly say they traveled but this doesn't inherently mean they didn't travel there.

But this is putting the cart before the horse.

So is your assumption that it's not canon and therefore that the name being Mobius and not Earth means it's this is a setting in an entirely different verse. This is why I said alone this theory on both ends is circular and self defeating and will require an evalutation of it's relationship to the storyline in other areas. Hence why the larger discussion is taking place now.

Edited by Miko
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What the hell? I'm having a hard time trying to connect a reboot of a series with the planet a crappy pinball/platformer hybrid is set on. Back on topic and if you want to continue this discussion, feel free to start a new one.

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Wasn't Sonic Unleashed already a "soft reboot" in a way? It didn't start everything over, but it brought the series back to the Sonic/Eggman rivalry(Mostly through focusing just on Sonic in terms of playable characters), and was an effort to get away from the "dark and edgy" story telling from Sonic 06.

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Not really, they could still do it the way it is now. People may expect certain characters to be guaranteed in a game, but it's really all up to the developers to decide whether a character should be in a game.

Aside from Sonic and Tails, I don't think there should be any expectations for the SoJ characters in games all the time. If an American chararacter for instance can fit the role better, the other branches shouldn't have to feel apprehensive because they're not using "Japan's characters". Furthermore, many of Japan's additions aren't even all that well received here, not to mention their depiction of Sonic's identity may not be something conceived very well in western countries where he was more edgier in attitude in comparison.

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Aside from Sonic and Tails, I don't think there should be any expectations for the SoJ characters in games all the time. If

Well, we're still kind of going to need Robotnik. :lol: But I suspect you just meant the protagonists.

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  • 2 weeks later...

The Sonic games are getting suckish now. They are just too rushed. Sonic Team clearly has no idea how to develop games anymore.

Sonic Team needs to put time into their games, that way they can actually make a good game, not stupid glitch fests with uninspiring story lines. If they took a break for a couple years, made new ideas. The series could then go back on track, be reshaped, and we wouldn't have to worry about a reboot.

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The Sonic games are getting suckish now. They are just too rushed. Sonic Team clearly has no idea how to develop games anymore.

Sonic Team needs to put time into their games, that way they can actually make a good game, not stupid glitch fests with uninspiring story lines. If they took a break for a couple years, made new ideas. The series could then go back on track, be reshaped, and we wouldn't have to worry about a reboot.

I take it that your only game was Sonic 06, because aside from that Sonic games have been far from rushed glitch fests with uninspiring story lines...okay, yeah the story line is predictable, you're right on that.

But everything else you said is what the series has been doing...the wrong way unfortunately. It's more than just taking time with new ideas, it's about having good execution with those new ideas, and a lot of them have been poor on the execution.

Edited by ChaosSupremeSonic
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I played like, 95% of the Sonic games out there.

And they release each new game too soon after the other games. You're right about the execution... but if they want to achieve it, they need to take some time to think first. The pace of their thinking is too rushed and they need to slow down.

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The Sonic games are getting suckish now. They are just too rushed. Sonic Team clearly has no idea how to develop games anymore.

Sonic Team needs to put time into their games, that way they can actually make a good game, not stupid glitch fests with uninspiring story lines. If they took a break for a couple years, made new ideas. The series could then go back on track, be reshaped, and we wouldn't have to worry about a reboot.

Unleashed 360/PS3 took 3 years for its development.

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Perhaps Project Needlemouse could be the shot in the arm the series needs?

It could be, but there are a lot of things that could happen. We don't know enough yet to say if it will or won't be.

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Wasn't Sonic Unleashed already a "soft reboot" in a way? It didn't start everything over, but it brought the series back to the Sonic/Eggman rivalry(Mostly through focusing just on Sonic in terms of playable characters), and was an effort to get away from the "dark and edgy" story telling from Sonic 06.

I agree. and with Project Needlemouse on the way, who knows how this franchise will turn out? <3

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