Characters that never grew on you (Games only)

[Lord-Dreamerz]

I never liked Silver AKA discount Trunks. Not his design, not his personality or how SEGA has used him in any game. Like many Sonic characters after their debut game... but more so him them some others... he feels forced into the later titles and has no point anymore. And a reason outside the products themselves I also dislike how he has somehow over time gotten more popular over certain other (in my opinion) better Sonic game characters... Sometimes it feels like all you need to be popular in Sonic is to be a male hedgehog with some super powers. Ugh. Silver is a character I really wish they would stop using unless they have a perfect game to put him in.

I never cared much for Mighty or Ray. Their designs are boring as all hell to me, just Sonic clones that were barely edited to be different animals. Their personalities are bland to me and don't offer anything different enough from other characters in the series. They offer alright gameplay in Mania... but that's about all the praise I can give them.

Never been much of a Charmy Bee fan... Outside of being the fly type member in the Chaotix team, he doesn't offer anything interesting gameplay or storywise. His personality is mostly forgettable and or borders on the edge of being slightly annoying. But his design is the real wasteful part about him... I like the concept of bee characters in general and feel his design misses the mark hugely! He barely even looks like a bee! (Charmy looks more like a normal animal kid wearing bee cosplay) and misses out on a lot of visual appeal the concept could offer in my opinion.

[Iko]

19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I like how you cite Forces with the Cube Wispon before Sonic Advance 3, where everyone got their own custom hammer--including Amy!

Sadly because I was unable to find a sprite that's not the whole sprite sheet. But I serched for it. Anyway I think that cube wispon works better as example, because it has absolutely no connections with Amy, while in Advance 3 they gain the hammer because of Amy.

19 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That is annoying, yes, and not a very good counter-stance to have, but at that point, you kinda have to hold that against them, rather than Amy herself

And/or just ignore em. That helps too.

I can ignore them, but in the meanwhile Sumo Digital probably has read them and decided to put Team Rose in their game without Cream. They are giving bad feedback to Sega.

[RedFox99]

7 minutes ago, Iko said:

I can ignore them, but in the meanwhile Sumo Digital probably has read them and decided to put Team Rose in their game without Cream. They are giving bad feedback to Sega.

If it makes you feel better, a bunch of people showed their feelings towards Cream being absent, so hopefully Sumo Digital gets the memo.

[Your Vest Friend]

That's assuming Sumo have that much control over the roster. Besudes, why would they change things now even if they were in control fully?

[Sonic Fan J]

59 minutes ago, Iko said:

it's mainly due to some people who are obsessed with her and want other characters to be scrapped because Amy exists (not just Cream, even Knuckles and some others).

 

28 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

That is annoying, yes, and not a very good counter-stance to have, but at that point, you kinda have to hold that against them, rather than Amy herself

And/or just ignore em. That helps too.

Meant to comment on this as well, but I can see where Iko is coming from here. While it's never bugged me in this franchise, seeing people go absolutely off the deep end because of their favorite character has affected my perception of characters before and I usually have to remind myself to look at the character and not their fans. A prime example of me having this problem is Alisha in Tales of Zestiria whose fanbase I find so toxic that I get annoyed just seeing her. It's completely unfair to the character, especially since independent of her fans I find her to be fun character who has the maturity and sense of responsibility and duty to not let her dreams and whims distract her from what she knows she has to do. But point being, I get where Iko is coming from and sometimes you just can't stop yourself if the fan obnoxiousness goes hand in hand with anytime the character comes up in any conversation. Amy may be one of my favorites but I won't deflect blame if someone finds my stance obnoxious and will instead try to explain where I'm coming and why. At least that way I can hope at the very least that I can create an avenue of communication that allows me to become less obnoxious and hopefully relieve some the ill perception others have because of me.

Getting back on topic though and sticking with Cream, I have to admit that I find it very strange how much general disdain that she gets if she is supposedly just forgettable. I know a polite and simple character with a lack of initiative is fairly hard to use in this franchise, but if she is forgettable, why the hate? If it's because you feel like she is stealing something from your favorite character then that seems more like that she has grown on you in the wrong way rather then simply not growing on you. As I see grounds for potential with her and how she can bolster herself and those around her by simply being grouped up with complimentary characters to allow her to define herself before branching out with others. On the other hand, I find Cubot brings absolutely nothing of any note to the franchise and his absence would bother me in no way. Nothing about his character has ever done anything for me in one way or another and is to me forgettable. His continued existence won't bother me either because he simply means nothing to me and is generally easy for me to ignore.

[Scape]

No one in their right mind hates Cream so much that they want her completely gone. They just want her to be done better and not at the expense of another character.

[Diogenes]

29 minutes ago, Scape said:

No one in their right mind hates Cream so much that they want her completely gone.

Yeah actually I kinda do want her gone though. Like I'm not constantly raging against her existence but I don't find her interesting at all and I can't think of any worthwhile use for her so I'd like if they'd just retire her.

[Scape]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah actually I kinda do want her gone though. Like I'm not constantly raging against her existence but I don't find her interesting at all and I can't think of any worthwhile use for her so I'd like if they'd just retire her.

It's messed up that Team Sonic Racing went with a handful of chaos instead of her though.

[RedFox99]

Someone on Discord gave an interest dynamic for Amy and Cream: 

Basically, Amy is the "force of emotion" type person; she has overwhelming passion and energy, which fuels here boundless joy and optimism, but can also to make her quick to anger. Amy has a sensible mind, but she tends to be more irrational about things, yet manages to be an effective leader by using her 'emotion' to empower people's spirits and such 

Cream, on the other hand, is the "Empath"; while she can have strong emotions, she's quiet and reserved the majority of the time and prefers to stay that way, yet she's still emotionally in-tune but more in the understanding sense. Cream can literally feel other people's emotions and is influenced by them. This explains Cream's happy-go-lucky nature, as she tends to be surrounded by similarly cheerful, happy people, but gets physically uncomfortable with intense rage, sadness, fear, and other negative emotions. But with empathy comes the ability to know how emotions work and, from that, Cream is one of the very few people who can calm Amy down from wrath or excessive joy (the only other one being Sonic, to an extent lol)

[Sonic Fan J]

31 minutes ago, Scape said:

No one in their right mind hates Cream so much that they want her completely gone. They just want her to be done better and not at the expense of another character.

I would hope so but I've seen so much character hating in this franchise all the way to the point that I've seen people say that the franchise would be better off without Sonic himself in full seriousness.

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah actually I kinda do want her gone though. Like I'm not constantly raging against her existence but I don't find her interesting at all and I can't think of any worthwhile use for her so I'd like if they'd just retire her.

And ninja'd...

As for Cream, to me at least, she needs to be put in a position where she compliments Amy while still being able to be her own character. If Amy is supposed to be the Sonic respect seeking love interest who believes in the you who believes in yourself, then Cream should be the calm one who also believes in you and acts as a translator for those who can't handle Amy's overbearing nature while also being more assertive in her own ideas with what Amy can do earn Sonic's respect and potential acknowledgement of her feelings. If she is supposed to be Amy's Tails, then she has to be a support character to Amy, but she also has to contrast enough in something as simple as interests (chaos as a suggestion) to motivate Amy to trust her. Amy is supposedly good with fortune telling with an insight into mysticism, then Cream who is good with chaos who are directly affiliated with a deity and by extension the Chaos Emeralds due to said deity then she should be able to support Amy's intuitions by taking her unique attunement with the chaos and capitalizing on it.

Rambling aside, I see potential in Cream, but before she can stand on her own like Tails can, she has to first succeed at what she is supposed to be. While it's easy to sell her short, as a would be storyteller myself I find a worthwhile challenge in figuring out how to use what she has to make her stand out and deserving of everyone's attention without undermining her role in the series.

[RedFox99]

@Sonic Fan J You seem to bring up a good point.

The same guy also added this:

Exactly, yes! That's the general basis behind how and why the two work together the most effective XD Cream keeps Amy's emotions in check, specifically keeping them from clouding her judgement or losing control of herself, through her empathy. While Amy uses her passionate 'force' to inspire Cream to do things she normally wouldn't want to do, or at least didn't think capable of doing, and her endless optimism and joy keeps Cream going through even the most daunting of places (that is, keeps Cream from getting depressed if they're travelling through a graveyard or any other sad, scary place lol)

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

 

Never been much of a Charmy Bee fan... Outside of being the fly type member in the Chaotix team, he doesn't offer anything interesting gameplay or storywise. His personality is mostly forgettable and or borders on the edge of being slightly annoying. But his design is the real wasteful part about him... I like the concept of bee characters in general and feel his design misses the mark hugely! He barely even looks like a bee! (Charmy looks more like a normal animal kid wearing bee cosplay) and misses out on a lot of visual appeal the concept could offer in my opinion.

At the very least, he seems to have extrasensory or a sixth sense and the abilities to warp using flowers(pretending those aren't random or mechanical for a sec).

1 hour ago, Iko said:

Sadly because I was unable to find a sprite that's not the whole sprite sheet. But I serched for it. 

Oh, that's a shame.

1 hour ago, Iko said:

 

I can ignore them, but in the meanwhile Sumo Digital probably has read them and decided to put Team Rose in their game without Cream. They are giving bad feedback to Sega.

Fair enough, I suppose.

52 minutes ago, Scape said:

No one in their right mind hates Cream so much that they want her completely gone. They just want her to be done better and not at the expense of another character.

See, I was gonna point out that this is the Internet and a fanbase, but then you preceded with "in their right mind." 

[Sonic Fan J]

I like that a lot @RedFox99. Amy and Cream should naturally play off of each other by contrasting their similarities by examining what makes them different. Take Sonic and Tails for example, bot hare great at smashing Eggman bots (bar forces) but where Sonic has no respect for Eggman's creations, Tails as a tech geek does so when they come a cross an opponent they can't beat Sonic's way Tails' insights and own way of approaching robotics allows them to find victory. While not necessarily the best example, it shows two characters doing the same thing but able to compliment each other by the nuances within those similarities that make them different. That is where Cream needs to explored to grow and stand out as a character, the nuances that make the traits she shares with Amy different.

[RedFox99]

2 minutes ago, Sonic Fan J said:

That is where Cream needs to explored to grow and stand out as a character, the nuances that make the traits she shares with Amy different.

Maybe she can grow into being someone who tries pacifism first as a solution, but will resort to violence when needed.

[Sonic Fan J]

1 minute ago, RedFox99 said:

Maybe she can grow into being someone who tries pacifism first as a solution, but will resort to violence when needed.

Well she does have Cheese to lead the charge if action needs to be taken before she is ready to. From there Amy's own willingness to expose herself to danger to do what has to be done can encourage Cream from there and then Amy's perky optimism can carry Cream through the repercussions of any fight while reminding Amy that smashing things sometimes just swaps one problem with another.

[RedFox99]

Truth be told, I like the idea of a Sonic 2 like game, but with Amy and Cream, maybe with a less subtle story and dialogue.

[DabigRG]

1 hour ago, RedFox99 said:

Truth be told, I like the idea of a Sonic 2 like game, but with Amy and Cream, maybe with a less subtle story and dialogue.

Or more accurately, some story and any dialogue.

[Iko]

18 hours ago, RedFox99 said:

Someone on Discord gave an interest dynamic for Amy and Cream: 

Basically, Amy is the "force of emotion" type person; she has overwhelming passion and energy, which fuels here boundless joy and optimism, but can also to make her quick to anger. Amy has a sensible mind, but she tends to be more irrational about things, yet manages to be an effective leader by using her 'emotion' to empower people's spirits and such 

Cream, on the other hand, is the "Empath"; while she can have strong emotions, she's quiet and reserved the majority of the time and prefers to stay that way, yet she's still emotionally in-tune but more in the understanding sense. Cream can literally feel other people's emotions and is influenced by them. This explains Cream's happy-go-lucky nature, as she tends to be surrounded by similarly cheerful, happy people, but gets physically uncomfortable with intense rage, sadness, fear, and other negative emotions. But with empathy comes the ability to know how emotions work and, from that, Cream is one of the very few people who can calm Amy down from wrath or excessive joy (the only other one being Sonic, to an extent lol)

I like this, it highlights the difference between the two characters' personalities very well. And that's not even something that comes from the fans, because it perfectly matches how those 2 characters are in most of the games where they appear in, and especially how they are supposed to be.

[Dash Speed]

On 7/30/2018 at 5:11 AM, Sean said:

Shadow never exactly grew on me in an overall sense. The one aspect of him I do end up appreciating these days is his original SA2 appearance. I hated him when SA2 first came out and honestly I acted pretty fucking dumb about it, but looking back at SA2 and underneath its extremely shoddy storytelling, I think its plot backbone was good and Shadow's characterization and screentime were a lot more understated than I gave them credit for at the time. So nowadays I like him in SA2 just fine.

After that though? I definitely don't hate him like I once did but I still have a hard time wrapping my mind around what happened to him after that. He never had any interesting moments for me to latch onto like he had in SA2. I think he suffers pretty heavily from power creep; it felt like Sonic Team was getting more ridiculous with his powers with each passing game while downplaying or not acknowledging his weaknesses, and I'm sure they're there but you really have to look for them, because on paper Shadow sounds like a typical DBZ denizen. It's bizarre just how much stronger he is than literally everyone else in the franchise, while having abilities that nobody else's can even compare to.

Yet Sonics able to beat him, you do realize sonic can be accused of being the one responsible for the power creep in the series by simply being based on having super powers that are op to a point where the games parody dragon ball with super forms and later light speed dash. Shadow was simply a fair awnser to sonic and super Sonics serial esculation in SA1.

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It's stuff like that that makes it hard for me to line him up with the rest of the characters and believe he realistically meshes well with the rest of the cast, or Sonic's world in general. I just try to look at SA2 within a vacuum where the writers (probably) had no intention of incorporating alien backstories, guns, and BIGGER AND BETTER chaos powers (that he doesn't even need a chaos emerald for!) and appreciate him and the game better for it.

And while Shadow gets more varied powers, Sonic gets faster and broken to the the point he's the flash lite and Goku lite(he goes super sayain and has the same chaos abilites as shadow), Silver is Jean grey in being broken with tk, blaze is a magic anime girl with fire powers, Eggman can build reed Richards inventions, tails is as smart as Eggman being mcguyver as a fury, knuckles can create earthquakes by punching the ground. If your gonna blame one charactet for getting over the top, blame the entire franchise since it's always been ridiculous. The back stories are also part of what makes the games unpredictable in being flexible with particular characters.

 

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Dash Speed said:

Yet Sonics able to beat him, you do realize sonic can be accused of being the one responsible for the power creep in the series by simply being based on having super powers that are op to a point where the games parody dragon ball with super forms and later light speed dash. Shadow was simply a fair awnser to sonic and super Sonics serial esculation in SA1.

Technically you can make that accusation but I doubt you can convincingly back it up.

It's not as if Sonic is always walking around with Super Saiyan level powers; he needs all seven emeralds to go super, which is something that typically only happens at the climax of an adventure, when there's something big enough and nasty enough to need incredible power to defeat. Outside of those limited cases he's only got his natural speed and agility, which obviously are impressive in their own right, but they don't make him horrendously overpowered.

And I wouldn't call Shadow a "fair answer" to Sonic's abilities when he not only can match everything Sonic does, but also casually teleport, stop/slow time, shoot energy spears, create explosions, become invincible, manifest infinite ammo, and more, with (and sometimes without) just one emerald.

[Dash Speed]

47 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Technically you can make that accusation but I doubt you can convincingly back it up.

It's not as if Sonic is always walking around with Super Saiyan level powers; he needs all seven emeralds to go super, which is something that typically only happens at the climax of an adventure, when there's something big enough and nasty enough to need incredible power to defeat. Outside of those limited cases he's only got his natural speed and agility, which obviously are impressive in their own right, but they don't make him horrendously overpowered.

If you know anything from sonic unleashed, Sonic has no limits in his speed because he along with super speed has aerokinesis and unlimited access to his own kinetic energy and gravity manipulation. Sonics so stupid fast, he's faster than the speed of light being sucked into a black hole. If anything Shadow being halfway better than him in energy output makes up for his ungodly superhuman abilities against Sonics who still has beaten him with only demi God speed skills and raw combat.

Quote

And I wouldn't call Shadow a "fair answer" to Sonic's abilities when he not only can match everything Sonic does, but also casually teleport, stop/slow time, shoot energy spears, create explosions, become invincible, manifest infinite ammo, and more, with (and sometimes without) just one emerald.

Sonic can do anything Shadow can do(chaos ability and weapon wise), he just chooses not too. Sonic maybe willfully weak in holding back his true abilites in order for a fair challenge.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

If you know anything from sonic unleashed, Sonic has no limits in his speed because he along with super speed has aerokinesis and unlimited access to his own kinetic energy and gravity manipulation. Sonics so stupid fast, he's faster than the speed of light being sucked into a black hole.

I'm sorry, is there some secret version of Unleashed out there that details all these extra superpowers that Sonic supposedly has? Because I've played through both versions of Unleashed and this sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit.

[Dash Speed]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm sorry, is there some secret version of Unleashed out there that details all these extra superpowers that Sonic supposedly has? Because I've played through both versions of Unleashed and this sounds like a bunch of made up bullshit.

Isn't his speed boost pure aerokinesis using the sound barrier? Plus his chaos attacks are centered around wind and air manipulation.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Isn't his speed boost pure aerokinesis using the sound barrier?

The boost is based on a technique called "running really fast".

4 minutes ago, Dash Speed said:

Plus his chaos attacks are centered around wind and air manipulation.

The only "chaos attack" he's ever used is Sonic Wind, which is kind of dubiously canon in the first place, and isn't inherently wind manipulation anyway; at best he's stirring up wind using his manipulation of chaos energy, which is "aerokinesis" about as much as making a breeze by waving my hand is, and it could just as likely be just a damaging vortex of chaos energy that he simply calls "Sonic Wind" due to the resemblance.

Also I'm not seeing an explanation for his supposed gravity manipulation or "unlimited access to his own kinetic energy" (whatever that even means).

Not that it would really matter anyway, because this is approaching character powers from exactly the wrong direction; Sonic characters' powers aren't designed to fit into rigid (pseudo-) scientific categories of "superpowers", they're generally based on loose thematic concepts. Sonic doesn't have aerokinesis, he simply "is fast", he can kick up a decent breeze because we know that fast-moving things make wind, not because he has some supernatural control over it.

[Myst]

On 8/1/2018 at 2:37 PM, Scape said:

No one in their right mind hates Cream so much that they want her completely gone. They just want her to be done better and not at the expense of another character.

I disagree with this statement.