The Possibility of Sonic Adventure HD

[Diogenes]

30 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

This is just your opinion. 

Okay, great. I'll just dismiss the entirety of your post as just your opinion too, so no discussion can be had and nobody can learn anything about anything.

[Meta77]

10 minutes ago, Tornado said:

It goes without saying that when the argument is that "Anything can belong in the sonic verse as long as it's well implemented" and/or "Sonics premise is what his creators deem in their universe," ShtH is the easy and obvious counterpoint (especially since when someone talks about "guns" in the franchise it's obvious to what they're referring anyway). For the half year or whatever it took after the game was announced to release, no one gave any bit of a shit how good it might be as a game to play. And when it released, no one gave any bit of a shit how good it was then either. The premise was so alienating to the franchise that it was the rallying point, period; and no amount of quality or developer word of god was going to change that.

Guns to me can mean from lasers to gun rifles.  which were in the games since the genesis days heck fang used a gun but became more cork likes cause you know violence is bad 90s edition. It seems Sth left some deep thorns in some people. To me it was just another Sega didn't know how to implement a feature in a good playable way and shoved out a game for the sake of it

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Okay, great. I'll just dismiss the entirety of your post as just your opinion too, so no discussion can be had and nobody can learn anything about anything.

Lol ok. XD I'll discuss but if you see the series as shit it's hard to revive a statement like that unless I bring up the classical style of mania. Don't get so flustered. We all care about the blue tide in all forms I'd hope

[Wraith]

Anything can be in Sonic. I agree with this insofar as "you shouldn't limit yourself on ideas that could enhance the experience." Mario having a ghost hat that lets him posses the bodies of enemies and inanimate objects sounds pretty fucking stupid until you see how they did it. 

The next question should be "what should be added?" The ghost shit suddenly makes sense when you realize half of the enviroment is now potential power ups that you've been using in Mario games up to this point anyway. What do guns add to a franchise where most of the depth to the combat lies in "moving around to find a good angle to hit an enemy directly"? The only thing it fixed from Heroes is the problem of enemies not dying fast enough and Heroes created that itself with the one hit kill system. It bypases combat that they seemed to be aware isn't fun, but any developer worth their salt would realize that it's a problem that would be fixed by streamlining the experience.

I think the presentation of the new toy is a completely separate issue.  If the mechanical applications for the Wisps in Colors were the same but they were presented as realistically rendered and textured parasites that caused Sonic physical pain to use as they shifted him on a molecular level and took over his mind, you could bet "Sonic Parasites" would be laughed out of the room. On the flip side, if there was a sequel to heroes where you played as Shadow but used colorful  anime weapons and guns, people would be like "well that's kinda dumb but alright" at worst. 

(NOTE: This doesn't mean dark themes are off limits, but they should be approached in a way that doesn't betray the series's lighthearted nature. We know they can do this because they've done it before, so it's not a debate.(Someone will quote this and ask DID THEY REALLY DO IT BEFORE???? The answer is yes.))


 

[Diogenes]

19 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Lol ok. XD I'll discuss but if you see the series as shit it's hard to revive a statement like that unless I bring up the classical style of mania. Don't get so flustered. We all care about the blue tide in all forms I'd hope

Alright, then can we at least agree that when someone becomes a fan of the series, it's because of specific traits of the series, and not just generic "good execution" separate from what the game specifically is? Like, I think I can confidently say that Mario fans like the series' colorful cartoony worlds and its polished platforming mechanics and freedom of movement, right? And most of them would not be happy with a Mario game that looked and played like Dark Souls, because that would mean removing the things they liked about the series and replacing the with things that they may not like, things that (whether they like them or not) are not the reasons that they are fans of Mario. It wouldn't matter if "Mario Souls" was an incredibly well designed and polished game, it wouldn't be fulfilling the reasons people follow the series and it'd be clashing with what came before. I think that is pretty reasonable and accurate, yeah?

So, same thing applies to Sonic. Take quality of execution out of the picture for a minute. If the series is run with a "just do anything" attitude, what is there for fans to hold onto? You can't know if anything you like will survive from game to game. The series can't build on itself because nothing lasts. It just becomes a chaotic, meaningless mess.

[Meta77]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Alright, then can we at least agree that when someone becomes a fan of the series, it's because of specific traits of the series, and not just generic "good execution" separate from what the game specifically is? Like, I think I can confidently say that Mario fans like the series' colorful cartoony worlds and its polished platforming mechanics and freedom of movement, right? And most of them would not be happy with a Mario game that looked and played like Dark Souls, because that would mean removing the things they liked about the series and replacing the with things that they may not like, things that (whether they like them or not) are not the reasons that they are fans of Mario. It wouldn't matter if "Mario Souls" was an incredibly well designed and polished game, it wouldn't be fulfilling the reasons people follow the series and it'd be clashing with what came before. I think that is pretty reasonable and accurate, yeah?

So, same thing applies to Sonic. Take quality of execution out of the picture for a minute. If the series is run with a "just do anything" attitude, what is there for fans to hold onto? You can't know if anything you like will survive from game to game. The series can't build on itself because nothing lasts. It just becomes a chaotic, meaningless mess.

I can agree with this

[Indigo Rush]

Not to say a little variety or a spin-off does any harm, but as Diogenes said the fact is that Sonic has failed to stay consistent to it's inherent qualities over the years. It wouldn't be so bad if they were one offs in conjunction with traditional Sonic games, but since Adventure the series hasn't stuck to its original blueprint, and that's simply not acceptable; and I'm tired of having to resort to opening Kega to get my Sonic fix. 

[Kellan]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Alright, then can we at least agree that when someone becomes a fan of the series, it's because of specific traits of the series, and not just generic "good execution" separate from what the game specifically is? Like, I think I can confidently say that Mario fans like the series' colorful cartoony worlds and its polished platforming mechanics and freedom of movement, right? And most of them would not be happy with a Mario game that looked and played like Dark Souls, because that would mean removing the things they liked about the series and replacing the with things that they may not like, things that (whether they like them or not) are not the reasons that they are fans of Mario. It wouldn't matter if "Mario Souls" was an incredibly well designed and polished game, it wouldn't be fulfilling the reasons people follow the series and it'd be clashing with what came before. I think that is pretty reasonable and accurate, yeah?

So, same thing applies to Sonic. Take quality of execution out of the picture for a minute. If the series is run with a "just do anything" attitude, what is there for fans to hold onto? You can't know if anything you like will survive from game to game. The series can't build on itself because nothing lasts. It just becomes a chaotic, meaningless mess.

I gotta say, I’ve been reading your complaints about series consistency for a while now, and this is the first time I’ve actually understood what your argument was. I get it now.

I still think that Pontaff has been worse for the series’s consistency than any alternate gameplay style ever has, but I’m glad I finally understand where you’re coming from.

[Meta77]

23 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Not to say a little variety or a spin-off does any harm, but as Diogenes said the fact is that Sonic has failed to stay consistent to it's inherent qualities over the years. It wouldn't be so bad if they were one offs in conjunction with traditional Sonic games, but since Adventure the series hasn't stuck to its original blueprint, and that's simply not acceptable; and I'm tired of having to resort to opening Kega to get my Sonic fix. 

I think the anniversary party from hell summed up segas thoughts. Fans we want sa3 . Sega mmm we want to keep the series moving forward trying new stuff. Though we hear you buuuuuuuut don't care.

[SBR2]

I'm sure if they did and it played basically the same everyone would still hate it anyway son why even bother?

[ClassicKnuckles]

Has this turned into an argument as to Sonic gimmicks?

[Sonicka]

The only problem with SA3 for me (as much as I would LOVE another entry) is two things.

Firstly Sonic Team have given us Sonic Adventure 3 at least 3 times (if not in name) already:

Sonic Heroes: A Semi-sequel follow-up that meshed the adventure style games you not a trio of Sonicy levels that played out in the same structure as a classic title.

Shadow the Hedgehog: A Quasi-side-story-sequel follow up, and one with a plot that directly follows on from Sonic Adventure 2 and the threads from Sonic Heroes. Sure, Shadow is the main character but again we have a mesh of gameplay styles from the adventure series in one.

Sonic The Hedgehog 2006: If anything, this is Sonic Adventure 3 in all but name. 3 main characters, all with separate abilities (sort of) 3 storylines that combine and a hub world to boot.

Sonic Unleashed: Essentially Sonic Adventure 4 (and know man as Sonic World Adventure no less in Japan!) which yes had one character to play as, but also had two alternate gameplay styles - not to mention a huge world quest of ‘adventure style’ proportions to make it through, and oh hey... a hub world!

Sonic Boom: Lets not touch on this one...

 

My second point sort of sums up my first point, as Diogenes makes a very good explanation about the series since it hit 3D - no two games are the same or build or share all its merits which makes things... well, quite messy when it comes to what we’re supposed to expect out of a Sonic Title.

To me, Sonic Adventure 1 and Sonic Adventure 2 are vastly different beasts. I don’t think the 2nd entry just refined the first, it completely redefines it whilst borrowing some elements they felt worked best, if SA1, was an action platformer, then SA2 is an arcade platformer.

So if this is how the Sonic Adventure Series is defined - then the 4 games I mentioned above are technically all sequels and we’ve actually had 6 games in the series - each just borrowing or overhauling gameplay styles every single time. Is it truley any wonder Sonic Team aren’t particularly bothered with a follow up? Not only in their minds have they done it multiple times already without calling it by that name, but they also don’t know what a Sonic Adventure game exactly is (and by default... neither do we really - we just know what bits works and what we like).

The ‘Boost’ Trilogy at least had a touch more consistency in the gameplay style they wanted to adopt which concluded excellently by Sonic Generations.

Although they should have carried on from there, The next mainline game of Sonic Lost World was a pretty excellent deviantion/experiment from the boost games, and is probably one of their last brilliant titles I’ve played. It’s just a shame it didn’t sell on a platform that faltered heavily in units - a sequel would have done well to refine this gameplay style and actually the new style and approach would then be something at least fans could get behind with follow-ups. 

But yeah, Sonic Forces sort-of went backwards after that... back to the ‘Adventure format’ of sorts and not really in a great way with it’s mesh of styles and master of none approach - but essentially it is Sonic Adventure 6/7 if you think about it.

Anyway... Sonic Adventure HD was the topic title wasn’t it? ^^; I guess if you’re after a re-remaster in the vein of how they’ve completely retooled games like Shadow of The Collossus... that would be interesting to see, if unlikely. For certain though, it would still not be the same game as the original no matter how they did it XD

 

[Chaos Incarnate]

I'd love this and buy it day one, but there's no way it will ever happen. 

1)Sonic Team lacks the competency to do a proper remake, because as much as I love the game, it doesn't hold up as far as the camera, half the playable characters, voice acting, and hub worlds are concerned. You can't just pull a Halo Anniversary and swap out the graphics; things HAVE to be changed for it to work in modern day. Big should be taken out of the main game completely, and no one can convince me of that otherwise.  I don't know if I can see Sega giving it to another developer.

2) While it is my favorite Sonic game, Adventure is a point of contention for a lot of people that don't like the direction the series went in because of it. Genre roulette gameplay styles, voice acting, and a convoluted plot. I don't really agree with that, because I think Sonic Adventure did what it needed to do when it came out, and I like it when Sonic has a (good) story and voice acting. Its a very controversial game among classic purists, and Sega wants to cater to the classic sonic fans. There's nothing wrong with that, but I don't think they want to cause a stir by remaking what is seen as the start of sonic's "decline" for several people.

And come on, it's a lose lose situation with how you'd remake the game. You either 1- keep the story and gameplay the exact same and only remake the visuals, which will piss people off who'd like to see what can be done to improve the game's flaws, or 2,  change even the tiniest thing, like dubbing over the hilariously lulzy voice acting, which causes a huge shit storm among the die hard adventure fans.

Sonic Adventure deserves to be remade, and I'd love to see it happen, but it won't. Not as unrealistic as fixing Sonic 06, but it'll never ever, never happen.

 

[Multikaris]

On 1/23/2018 at 9:37 AM, Diogenes said:

Alright, then can we at least agree that when someone becomes a fan of the series, it's because of specific traits of the series, and not just generic "good execution" separate from what the game specifically is? Like, I think I can confidently say that Mario fans like the series' colorful cartoony worlds and its polished platforming mechanics and freedom of movement, right? And most of them would not be happy with a Mario game that looked and played like Dark Souls, because that would mean removing the things they liked about the series and replacing the with things that they may not like, things that (whether they like them or not) are not the reasons that they are fans of Mario. It wouldn't matter if "Mario Souls" was an incredibly well designed and polished game, it wouldn't be fulfilling the reasons people follow the series and it'd be clashing with what came before. I think that is pretty reasonable and accurate, yeah?

So, same thing applies to Sonic. Take quality of execution out of the picture for a minute. If the series is run with a "just do anything" attitude, what is there for fans to hold onto? You can't know if anything you like will survive from game to game. The series can't build on itself because nothing lasts. It just becomes a chaotic, meaningless mess.

To be completely fair, Mario HAS had at least one sloppy, disfiguring gimmick akin to those in Sonic and countless other platformers; FLUDD. 

[Diogenes]

Which proves my point; Sunshine is easily the worst 3D Mario and some of its most fondly remembered parts are the "secret" areas where you don't have FLUDD. FLUDD was a mistake, as are most of the dumb gimmicks Sonic has tried.

[EvanUn0]

(Hey, remember when this post was about a Sonic Adventure remake?)

All jokes aside, I'd want to see how a remake of the Adventure games would be done. I'm not always a big fan of the "Just upscale a game and fix nothing else" practice. It's not inherently bad, but it'd be nice for some companies to maybe fix/add something that'd make sense.

 

[A person, that exists]

Well, knowing how modern Sega treats the Adventure games, I'm pretty sure that a remake of Unleashed is more likely.

But, hey, if Sega can't do it, the fans can... Right?

[Shade Vortex]

Really, while I would like to see a properly remade Sonic Adventure game, SEGA/Sonic Team seem to rarely remake games (have they ever even done this?) rather than simply port them. The least amount of effort for maximum profit seems to be their style. If it was any other company I'd -expect- remakes of old Sonic games, but when not even the most popular or well-received titles get the proper remake treatment, I tend to doubt that any ever will get one.

I'd love to be proven wrong, however.

[EvanUn0]

After watching some vids online and hearing some opinions from my friends, I feel like there could be a resurgence/revival of the Adventure Era. Maybe not a remake of the Adventure games outright, but making a new game with a lot of Adventure era elements.

I could also chalk up my reasons for a remake to "Everyone's doing it." Crash Bandicoot N. Sane, Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy 7, God of War, Nintendo's done it with two Zeldas, Gamefreak remade Pokemon Gens I-III, the list goes on.

Also, with some of the products that have been released in recent years, like the Sonic Adventure vinyls, Sonic Adventure Music Experience (Which I went to, Hell yeah!), SEGA's more than aware that there's an avid following for that era of Sonic.

[Sonikko]

The reason we're in this state where lots of fans say "Sonic can be anything, any element could be part of the Sonic franchise as long as well executed" is Sonic Team's lack of direction and understanding of their own franchise.

Sonic's identity has unfortunately been stripped away a long time ago, any gameplay feature that made Sonic what it was became just a visual prop, it led fans that came in touch with the franchise during the 2000s to believe that what made Sonic, well, Sonic, is the cool attitude, and it being a blue hedgehog.

I don't agree with it one bit, Sonic has a clear identity to me, one that has been ignored for 20 years now, but at the same time I feel like the fault for people thinking "any game can be a Sonic game, even a reskin of Dark Souls/Tetris/Mario (Lost World)/Ratched and Clank (Avatar in Forces being a lame attempt at that)/Jak & Daxter (Sonic Boom RoL)  if well done" is not on the fans, it's completely on Sonic Team.

They made Sonic the empty template it is now, so yeah, to someone who grew up with Adventure/Heroes/06/Unleashed, Sonic can be anything, as the core gameplay presented in those games had literally no identity besides "character that moves fast and is slippery to control".

 

EDIT: On topic post:

I wouldn't trust Sonic Team with a SA1 remake, I feel like they'd screw up either with a 1:1 recreation which would be a bad thing as anyone here before me already said, or a remake a-la Generations but focusing on the wrong points.

Also, SA1 is the only 3D game which lets you play with physics (even if broken and janky) and experiment with level design in some points, and I don't think they're able/ want to do anything remotely similar right now, after we've seen the direction they're going in with Forces.

Sonic Team doesn't understand Sonic, and SA1 is the only official 3D game that has some semblance of Sonic-y gameplay. Please don't touch that.

[DonWaffleleven]

So the concensus here seems to be "There's no way it will happen, but if it does happen we don't trust Sonic Team to do it". Makes sense given Sonic Team's abysmal track record. And looking at the rave reviews for Bluepoint's Shadow of the Colossus remake, they'd seem to be the ideal candidate for the job.

I'm in the "remake it" camp personally. Getting the late 90s jank out of the way like those cutscenes and that camera should make the game more presentable. Port it to the switch for them Nintendoughs. Make it 1080p60fps to act as an apology for Forces.

[ClassicKnuckles]

17 hours ago, EvanUn0 said:

After watching some vids online and hearing some opinions from my friends, I feel like there could be a resurgence/revival of the Adventure Era. Maybe not a remake of the Adventure games outright, but making a new game with a lot of Adventure era elements.

I could also chalk up my reasons for a remake to "Everyone's doing it." Crash Bandicoot N. Sane, Shadow of the Colossus, Final Fantasy 7, God of War, Nintendo's done it with two Zeldas, Gamefreak remade Pokemon Gens I-III, the list goes on.

Also, with some of the products that have been released in recent years, like the Sonic Adventure vinyls, Sonic Adventure Music Experience (Which I went to, Hell yeah!), SEGA's more than aware that there's an avid following for that era of Sonic.

That IS the reason we had the Werehog. Sonic Team sets trends, but they also follow them.

[MainJP]

If they don't give us Beta Windy Valley level design then what's the point.

[Blue Blood]

On 01/02/2018 at 2:07 AM, MainJP said:

If they don't give us Beta Windy Valley level design then what's the point.

If they can't make Sonic roll and react to slopes then what's the point?

[Swing]

Sega isn't really that into remakes. Especially with Sonic. Their for I see no real benefits fro them in making a remake. Sonic is already very confusing enough. Don't you guys than think that the younger crowd will be confused even more?

[MainJP]

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

If they can't make Sonic roll and react to slopes then what's the point?

That too obviously. Beta Windy Valley and 2 out of 3 of the test stages are full of classic styled slopes and inclines so that goes without saying.

And if fans can do it then SEGA has no excuse: