Does Shadow needs Chaos Emerald?

[Meta77]

That was more about saving her. It's not shown he can warp others from a distance.

[StaticMania]

He can shoot chaos spears and warp short distances without an Emerald...

He can stop time, warp longer distances, and chaos blast with an Emerald...

All his abilities are weakend when using Chaos Drives (or whatever those are)...from Nex Gen...

[Darth InVaders]

On 1/12/2018 at 8:32 PM, The Tenth Doctor said:

Just gonna post the video as proof he said it. Put it right to the quote.

 

So yeah, kinda what everyone is saying.

 

Black Doom was NOT talking about having no Emeralds, so this is irrelevant to the discussion. Doom was clearly saying that the more Emeralds one has, the more powerful their Chaos Control is. This still fits with 0 Emeralds means 0 power for Chaos Control. Doom never says anything about not needing Emeralds and the whole point of his speech is to explain why he needs all 7 Emeralds, he had no reason to explain something that would be irrelevant to his point of needing all 7.

And for that matter, the quote in Sonic Battle NEVER mentions Chaos Control, and since Emerl was always close by with all 7 Emeralds have Shadow gave it his, this is also irrelevant. What was Shadow likely talking about? One possibility is that because he was injured earlier in the story he was probably using the Emerald he had to act as a crutch so it did not weaken him, another is that it helped his memories of Maria (like in Shadow's game).

Sonic Battle quotes

SHADOW: So, basically when he absorbs this Chaos Emerald... ROUGE: It would appear so. SHADOW: Heh... Looks like I've got no other choice. ROUGE: -(!)- Shadow! That's your...! SHADOW: It's all right. I... I will always be with Maria.

SHADOW: Let us battle, one last time, to see who truly is the strongest! ... My body wasn't healed completely before, but now I'm ready! I am the ultimate life form, Shadow the hedgehog. I will crush anyone who stands in my way! EMERL: You sure about that? I don't want you whining about how you didn't have your "Chaos Emerald" and stuff! SHADOW: I no longer need it. I have Maria in my heart.

 See no mention of Chaos Control. Stop grasping at straws, all official quotes say he needs one. There is not a single official Sonic Team or Sega quote saying he does not need any Emeralds for Chaos Control. Hell even his voice actor gets it right (yea, ok, the VAs are not really an official source, its just funny how people so close to Sonic Team are still saying he needs one but this is still being debated)...

@9:51

 

[Shadowlax]

8 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

 

 See no mention of Chaos Control. Stop grasping at straws, all official quotes say he needs one. There is not a single official Sonic Team or Sega quote saying he does not need any Emeralds for Chaos Control.

Except for the bunches of times he does it with out a chaos emerald. I also you are kinda grasping at straws with the healing thing my guy. But I think the main thing that stands against your argument is simply, there's story necessity for him not needing a chaos emerald. They clearly don't want to use chaos emeralds as much as they used to, and shadow even back in 06 didn't really need a chaos emerald outside of literally tearing though time or stopping time, and it seems shadow has grown since then. But even more so, they don't want the knuckles problem of needing a thing around to use the character or having to forget the thing. He can do chaos control with an emerald, not just because growth or story, but because its convenient, and the chaos emeralds don't matter as much and they want to use his character

Things have changed I think you need to come to terms with it

[Darth InVaders]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Except for the bunches of times he does it with out a chaos emerald. I also you are kinda grasping at straws with the healing thing my guy. But I think the main thing that stands against your argument is simply, there's story necessity for him not needing a chaos emerald. They clearly don't want to use chaos emeralds as much as they used to, and shadow even back in 06 didn't really need a chaos emerald outside of literally tearing though time or stopping time, and it seems shadow has grown since then. But even more so, they don't want the knuckles problem of needing a thing around to use the character or having to forget the thing. He can do chaos control with an emerald, not just because growth or story, but because its convenient, and the chaos emeralds don't matter as much and they want to use his character

Things have changed I think you need to come to terms with it

"Bunches of times"? From cutscenes you got one moment in Sonic 06 that can be explained as a super speed "flash step" and two moments in Forces that can be explained as having an unseen Emerald or more "flash step" (since the Emeralds are irrelevant to that story). And you have a few gameplay abilities despite gameplay being full of non-canon abilities (Amy is not a chameleon like Espio who can turn invisible like she does in Sonic06 - but according to some people who only believe what they see I guess she can). And no quotes not even one saying he does not need an Emerald - while numerous quotes say he does, including his real life creator and current head of Sonic Team that makes the games.

[Meta77]

Lol flash step that was choas control. Agree or don't that was not a "flash step"

[Indigo Rush]

I think believing in what's on screen is a little more reasonable than assuming something is there without there being any precedent for it being there in the story.

The Chaos Emeralds are irrelevant to the story, so they aren't there. And Shadow used Chaos Control. Because he doesn't need a Chaos Emerald to use small bursts of Chaos Control. He's done this before in cutscenes, and he's still doing it.

I don't see why this is such a problem.

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

"Bunches of times"? From cutscenes you got one moment in Sonic 06 that can be explained as a super speed "flash step"

You've completely made up this idea of Shadow having a flash step, you know. There is no evidence that it's a thing at all.

[Darth InVaders]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think believing in what's on screen is a little more reasonable than assuming something is there without there being any precedent for it being there in the story.

The Chaos Emeralds are irrelevant to the story, so they aren't there. And Shadow used Chaos Control. Because he doesn't need a Chaos Emerald to use small bursts of Chaos Control. He's done this before in cutscenes, and he's still doing it.

I don't see why this is such a problem.

Seeing is believing? With no extra thought about how this can this work in continuity without changing continuity? So Amy can turn invisible?

[DabigRG]

This topic is likely one of the reasons Sega seldom bothers with characters like Shadow nowadays outside of popularity and cast herding reasons.

[Indigo Rush]

7 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

Seeing is believing? With no extra thought about how can this work in continuity? So Amy can turn invisible?

Sure?

She's dealt with the spirit world through tarot cards and rides a magic carpet in Sonic the Fighters, so I can't see why she can't learn a few magic tricks along the way.

I'm being facetious, of course. That's a lone anomaly. She's only turned invisible in one game. Meanwhile, Shadow's used Chaos Control without Chaos Emeralds in quite a few other games, though, so it's a much stronger foundation than Amy's invisibility. You've been putting a lot of work into handwaving every instance, so I commend that. You have a lot more free time than the rest of us.

I find it to be much easier to accept the fact that Sonic Team doesn't care about continuity and reconcile the inconsistencies with precedent. That precedent being that Shadow uses Chaos Control without a Chaos Emerald, and that using a Chaos Emerald amplifies that Chaos Control ability. I don't really need to make a stretch for that. I'm comfy with that reasoning. Not hard to accept. Not sure why you're trying so hard to stick to the Chaos Emerald necessity when that's been clearly retconned, just like Sonic's age or the setting of the games taking place in two worlds instead of just one. Or the moon turning around so you can't see the blown up half.

It's easier to just ignore "official canon" and piece together what makes sense, because Sonic Team's official canon is demonstrably wrong.

 

[Darth InVaders]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You've completely made up this idea of Shadow having a flash step, you know. There is no evidence that it's a thing at all.

It's just super speed. "Flash step" is just referencing a popular convention to help understand that what I'm talking about.

Does this better help understand what I am talking about?

Here it is in Sonic OVA....

@8:12 and 17:57 and a bunch of other places

 

[Indigo Rush]

Are you using non-canon media to justify your point? How naughty! We can't do that, but I guess you're special.

[Blue Blood]

4 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

This topic is likely one of the reasons Sega seldom bothers with characters like Shadow nowadays outside of popularity and cast herding reasons.

I doubt that convoluted or confusing canon is why they avoid things. At the end of the day, only a small subset of fans would care to discuss or even take notice. It's such a non-issue when the series demonstratably doesn't hold consistency in high regard and never has done.

[Darth InVaders]

5 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Are you using non-canon media to justify your point? How naughty! We can't do that, but I guess you're special.

One was more a joke, the other was helpful tool to get you to understand what I am saying since you're claiming the whole "flash step" is made up.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

It's just super speed. "Flash step" is just referencing a popular convention to help understand that what I'm talking about.

A lot of Sonic characters have super speed. They typically don't glow blue when they run fast.

Like, come on, dude. Is it that hard to admit that they just fucked up and contradicted themselves? You're not doing the continuity any favors by twisting it into pretzels to deny the obvious.

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, Darth InVaders said:

One was more a joke, the other was helpful tool to get you to understand what I am saying since you're claiming the whole "flash step" is made up.

Oh, I don't have a stake in the flash step argument. That's Dio.

I mean, you're still wrong about flash steps, but I wasn't making a statement on that. Just commenting on how you're using other media as an example when you're also dismissing in-game examples for Shadow using Chaos Control without an Emerald.

Just seems a trifle inconsistent, if not a double standard.

[MetalSkulkBane]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

A lot of Sonic characters have super speed. They typically don't glow blue when they run fast.

Like, come on, dude. Is it that hard to admit that they just fucked up and contradicted themselves? You're not doing the continuity any favors by twisting it into pretzels to deny the obvious.

This argument goes to nowhere. We all know Sonic lore contradicts itself.

You claim "since they changed it, now this is new canon"

He claims "continuity error, we should stick to the original source material".

It's no longer a logical dispute, it's an ideological one.

 

[Indigo Rush]

3 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

He claims "continuity error, we should stick to the original source material".

It's one thing if it's a lone anomaly, but Shadow's been consistently using Chaos Control without an emerald since '06 at least, I think it's safe to say the original source material is largely irrelevant at this point. It's much easier and more sensible to justify this as a retcon rather than a multitude of "oopsies" over the past decade or so. If it's irrelevant to the team behind the games, then it's irrelevant to me as far as I'm concerned.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

This argument goes to nowhere. We all know Sonic lore contradicts itself.

You claim "since they changed it, now this is new canon"

He claims "continuity error, we should stick to the original source material".

It's no longer a logical dispute, it's an ideological one.

Except I'm fully willing to admit that they just fucked up and that there is no actual consistent truth. I'm not going to deny the lines and word of god that either imply or state outright that Shadow needs an emerald. But I'm also not going to ignore the times he clearly uses Chaos Control without an emerald in sight and without reasonable possibility of him having one.

If there's an ideological dispute here, it's not between whether he can or can't CC without an emerald, it's about the willingness to accept the contradictory facts of the series vs distorting the facts to try to maintain a specific view.

[DabigRG]

Hear's an important little question to ask: Outside of Boom(because I know some smartasses might bring it up), has Shadow actually said "Chaos Control" during these other alleged incidents?

[Indigo Rush]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

Hear's an important little question to ask: Outside of Boom(because I know some smartasses might bring it up), has Shadow actually said "Chaos Control" during these other alleged incidents?

Yep.

In the game where Chaos Emeralds are never mentioned.

But don't worry, he probably has one in his shoe somewhere.

[DabigRG]

23 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

Yep.

In the game where Chaos Emeralds are never mentioned.

But don't worry, he probably has one in his shoe somewhere.

He has been established as keeping them in his spines, jackanape.

 

And I probably should've specified besides Forces, since it's the catalyst of this asinine argument to begin with.

[MetalSkulkBane]

"Han shoot first"

What do you think is more important: what company tells you is a 'right way to think' or what you believe was originally meant/ more sensible way to think? If next Star Wars movie kept saying 'by the way, Han totally shoot second' do you think fans would accept that as canon?

Now, the question is, why any of you even cares?

I care because I prefer lore to have sense, no matter how hopeless and pointless this is. This is why I come up with this little headcanon that solves everything.

Darth InVaders (I probably shouldn't speak in his name, I'll stop right after this post). seems to also prefer to have more respect for continuity than Sega themselves, so he's willing to overlook some things, to focus on "Han shoot first", on something that was done on purpose. I don't agree with his view, but I get it.

You're just willing to shrug off the change. Good for you, it's perfectly logical decision. But if you're cool with Sega not giving a damn, why are you giving a damn about them not giving a damn? Why even argue on behalf of "lore is a mess" side?

On 12.01.2018 at 7:42 PM, Indigo Rush said:

Are you earnestly insinuating that the writers intended for Shadow to have a secret Chaos Emerald (fake or otherwise) in his left pocket or something. 

Because that's silly.

 

I think you never heard of Marvel's  "No-Prize". It's when a writer makes a continuity error (like IDK, using power without power source) and then fan finds an explanation. Then editor says "good job fan, you solved our problem. Have a no-prize". My whole theory (and I suspect Darth InVaders ideas) are based on this way of thinking

[Indigo Rush]

5 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

He has been established as keeping them in his spines, jackanape.

That doesn't especially change my point at how silly it is, but alright. Thanks for the insult.

Quote

And I probably should've specified besides Forces, since it's the catalyst of this asinine argument to begin with.

"Besides the one that contradicts me"

Sonic Forces is a major main-entry Sonic game, I don't see why it doesn't count. It's especially valid, and I'm going to need something more substantial than an unmentioned, super secret Chaos Emerald being stuffed inside of his spikes to explain this. Give me some meat. Where's the beef.

If Shadow had a Chaos Emerald on his person, the writers would have mentioned it. As far as I know, the 7 Emeralds are currently behind a $1.99 paywall.

2 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I think you never heard of Marvel's  "No-Prize". It's when a writer makes a continuity error (like IDK, using power without power source) and then fan finds an explanation. Then editor says "good job fan, you solved our problem. Have a no-prize". My whole theory (and I suspect Darth InVaders ideas) are based on this way of thinking

Okay.

That's really, really stupid, but okay.