What are the consequences of Forces failing to sell?

[Sephy]

The thing is that SEGA is not in bad shape economically speaking,  I highly doubt they have low incomes from Sonic franchise (not only in games, but all the licensing/branding and merchandise sellings)...So why have they lowered the budget for Forces in first place?

[Jango]

SEGA have some of THE MOST creative and cool IPs ever, but they only use like, 4 and Sonic. Their classic IPs are all great. Where the hell is a new Jet Set Radio? A new NiGHTS, Ristar, Streets of Rage? Even a new Golden Axe. Comix Zone? Kid fucking Chameleon.

If Sonic actually still is their best selling IP they need to shake things up, because soon or later people will grow up and stop buying mediocre games like Sonic Forces. 

[Swing]

I personally do not think that Forces will hurt the Sonic brand that much. I mean, even if the fanbase is shrinking, their are still enough fans out there that love Sonic and will buy his games and other merchandise.  Also Forces will probably sell enough to make money, because they cut many corners with this games.

[molul]

Well, imagine the money if all Sonic games so far were 7.5/10 or more!

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, molul said:

Well, imagine the money if all Sonic games so far were 7.5/10 or more!

Good reviews =\= lots of money. Otherwise colonial marines would have made barely anything 

[molul]

I disagree. Many of us don't trust Sonic Team games and would surely have bought games like Forces should it have nice reviews (not from magazines only but also users reviews). I would assume any other Sonic fan who's not in these forums feel the same.

I don't mean non-Sonic fans would buy a Sonic game if it had good reviews. Just that many (MANY) Sonic fans wait for reviews for games like Sonic Boom, Forces, etc before buying them. When reviews are bad or average, many Sonic fans don't buy the game. That's the money I'm talking about.

[McGroose]

I can't help but wonder, even though I'm often one to scold Sega for not using some of the oldest franchises, like Ristar, Nights, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe and so on, would they even sell well? Nights possibly, but I don't really know about the rest. 

[Razule]

42 minutes ago, McGroose said:

I can't help but wonder, even though I'm often one to scold Sega for not using some of the oldest franchises, like Ristar, Nights, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe and so on, would they even sell well? Nights possibly, but I don't really know about the rest. 

If they'd advertise it well enough, anything's possible.

[LBomb]

43 minutes ago, McGroose said:

I can't help but wonder, even though I'm often one to scold Sega for not using some of the oldest franchises, like Ristar, Nights, Streets of Rage, Golden Axe and so on, would they even sell well? Nights possibly, but I don't really know about the rest. 

People always bring up Ristar as an IP that needs to be brought back but I have no clue as to how you could modernize or make a sequel to a game like that, let alone sell it. It's just sad to me that Sega's releasing crappy mobile ports and horrible plug n play consoles instead of actually trying. So much potential is being squandered with their IPs.

And please Sonic Team, bring back Chu Chu Rocket!

[molul]

If the game is really good, of course it can sell well. Ristar or Nights could be like Yoshi or DKC games for Nintendo. Secondary but well treated mascots make money too.

Golden Axe could use some modrrn approach. A combat system like Dark Souls, a story mode like Elder Scrolls... Shinobi: add some stealth system a la Metal Gear or Batman Arkham for instance.

The point: anything sells if it's good enough.

 

[KHCast]

1 hour ago, molul said:

I disagree. Many of us don't trust Sonic Team games and would surely have bought games like Forces should it have nice reviews (not from magazines only but also users reviews). I would assume any other Sonic fan who's not in these forums feel the same.

I don't mean non-Sonic fans would buy a Sonic game if it had good reviews. Just that many (MANY) Sonic fans wait for reviews for games like Sonic Boom, Forces, etc before buying them. When reviews are bad or average, many Sonic fans don't buy the game. That's the money I'm talking about.

Many of us simply wouldn’t have bought it due to it not being the direction for sonic we wanted. Good reviews can only do so much when it comes to sonic and the fanbase 

[molul]

1 hour ago, KHCast said:

Many of us simply wouldn’t have bought it due to it not being the direction for sonic we wanted. Good reviews can only do so much when it comes to sonic and the fanbase 

I forgot to say that I didn't mean good reviews as just good reviews. Good reviews would/should come from the game being good (by the way, I'm currently watching a full walkthrough and good lord it is really bad). 

I, like many in these forums, expected Forces to be a failure, but if reviews (especially user reviews in YouTube) had been good and had convinced me that the game was actually good, I would have bought it.

So yes, good reviews obviously imply better sales. Even Sonic 4ep1, being crap, sold better than it deserved thanks to (wrong) good reviews.

[Jango]

6 hours ago, molul said:

I disagree. Many of us don't trust Sonic Team games and would surely have bought games like Forces should it have nice reviews (not from magazines only but also users reviews). I would assume any other Sonic fan who's not in these forums feel the same.

I don't mean non-Sonic fans would buy a Sonic game if it had good reviews. Just that many (MANY) Sonic fans wait for reviews for games like Sonic Boom, Forces, etc before buying them. When reviews are bad or average, many Sonic fans don't buy the game. That's the money I'm talking about.

I'm don't need a bad or good review to motivate, or even worse, fool me into buying games, even less the bullshit "the game is not out yet" talk. Anyone can spot a mediocre game, and with a game like Forces you don't even really need to try that hard.

Same way people can spot something grand, something made with a reason and a clear design direction, something with clear effort and passion put into it, something that knows what it wants to do and does it right. That's why I bought Sonic Mania the day the pre-order became available and I knew I wouldn't buy Forces after the very first gameplays.

[Mad Convoy]

On 12/27/2017 at 3:46 PM, molul said:

If the game is really good, of course it can sell well. Ristar or Nights could be like Yoshi or DKC games for Nintendo. Secondary but well treated mascots make money too.

Golden Axe could use some modrrn approach. A combat system like Dark Souls, a story mode like Elder Scrolls... Shinobi: add some stealth system a la Metal Gear or Batman Arkham for instance.

The point: anything sells if it's good enough.

 

I mean, that's what we'd all like to think and what would be most logical, surely, but unfortunately reality gets in the way of that.

Like, don't even get me started on how many hidden gems there are made by the indie community that have little to no recognition and have never made a profit. There's a lot of games that deserve to catch on or at least break even, a lot of developers and companies that deserve to make a profit, but unfortunately there are other factors. You say secondary mascots make money... but could we even call guys like Ristar and Nights material for secondary mascots? Last I checked, very few people actually know who they even are outside of the Sega fandom, and with the way budgets and the gaming markets are today, games need to have appeal outside of a dedicated niche to be sustainable. Donkey Kong had the benefit of being an iconic villain and character that was fresh on people's minds before Donkey Kong Country and the like got started-- Ristar and Nights do not have anywhere near those benefits. Maybe Ristar could get away with it if it were low-budget enough, but a series like Nights which is generally more higher end (i.e. higher budget)? Nothing short of a miracle would result in that getting any kind of a profit these days.

Its vital for companies to create products with value, yes, but its also vital for the consumers to perceive the products as valuable for the company to make a profit off of it. Usually that's what marketing does, but its also influenced by more arbitrary things like current trends, people's preferences, and yes unfortunately, professional reviews. For example, take Sonic and the Black Knight. From my perspective, this is a game that really deserved to be praised more than it was during release. It fixes several issues of its predecessor and uses motion controls in a clever way, as well as having an engaging story and being visually interesting (that is a lot coming from me as I normally don't like it when cartoony creatures are planted in realistic worlds-- a work that does this really has to knock it out of the park to impress me). The reviews were nothing surprising either though decent enough. But it didn't catch. Why? Well, it wasn't that the game lacked anything of value. It was just that a lot of people took one look at it and thought "Why does Sonic have a sword?". And if they didn't think that, they probably thought "Why did they make a sequel to Secret Rings?" instead. Or alternatively, "Why so serious, cartoon blue hedgehog and colorful animal friends?". And that turned the game into a laughingstock right out the gate and for years beyond its release, instantly turning a big chuck of potential buyers off of buying the game. Even today, outside of the fanbase, you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who takes Black Knight seriously or as a good game, even if its got a lot to offer to people who set those pre-conceived notions aside and give it as shot.

Or in short, anything that's good doesn't necessarily sell. You need really good marketing to even stand a chance, and even then if people dismiss your concept before even seeing how you executed it or you're even just unlucky, you've got a flop and possibly a major embarrassment on your hands. Much as we'd like to think that if a developer works hard and makes something good they'll be loved, rich, and appreciated, that just isn't always the reality.

[Cayenne]

On 27/12/2017 at 6:46 PM, molul said:

If the game is really good, of course it can sell well. Ristar or Nights could be like Yoshi or DKC games for Nintendo. Secondary but well treated mascots make money too.

Golden Axe could use some modrrn approach. A combat system like Dark Souls, a story mode like Elder Scrolls... Shinobi: add some stealth system a la Metal Gear or Batman Arkham for instance.

The point: anything sells if it's good enough.

 

Nope. Sometimes "good" or "really good" is not enough to sell well. The first three releases (Xbox, PS2, Windows) of Psychonauts, an AMAZING game, were a commercial failure, for example:

Despite strong critical praise, Psychonauts did not sell well with only about 100,000 retail units sold at the time of release, leading to severe financial loss for Majesco and their departure from the video game market; the title was considered a commercial failure. Psychonauts since has earned a number of industry awards and gained a cult following. Following the acquisition of the game, Double Fine's republishing capabilities and support for modern platforms has allowed them to offer the game through digital distribution, and the company has reported that their own sales of the game have far exceeded what was initially sold on its original release, with cumulative sales of nearly 1.7 million as of December 2015. A sequel, Psychonauts 2, was announced at The Game Awards in December 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychonauts

Now, let's see Aliens: Colonial Marines, a game with terrible reviews:

Aliens: Colonial Marines debuted at number one on the UK all formats chart despite the negative reception, similar to the 2010 game Aliens vs. Predator. According to GfK Chart-Track it was the biggest release of the year in the UK ahead of Dead Space 3, and held the second highest first week sales for an Alien game since Aliens vs. Predator. The game was number one on both the respective Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 individual charts.

In the United States, the game debuted at number six on the all formats chart in its first month of release. As of March 31, 2013, as stated in Sega's end-of-fiscal-year report, Aliens: Colonial Marines has sold 1.31 million units in the U.S. and Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens:_Colonial_Marines

Each game has a "goal" (predetermined sales numbers to cover costs and profit) to beat. If it doesn't beat the goal, it's a failure. Sega is my favorite video game company and I'd love to see all these franchises again, in a new game, but the risks can be too big. I wanted and still want a new JSR, Ristar, Streets of Rage etc., but, after thinking, I can understand why they prefer to play it safe.

[molul]

Hmm. So, because indie games have a hard time to sell for obvious reasons, and this game called Psychonauts didn't sell well despite being good, I should think a game made by SEGA (not indie) around an old and loved (and with lots of potential in terms of image and gameplay) franchise wouldn't succeed?

I understand the exceptions you're pointing out, but my point stands, and I'm completing it with the obvious now: generally, good games, specially if made by big companies with big marketing resources, sell well.

OTOH, Ristar and Nights couldn't be considered secondary mascots now, but they could if Sega starts to treat them as such.

[Nicky Nicardo]

I don't know what will happen if Sonic Forces ultimately fails to sell (I've tried to find actual sales figures for both Forces and Mania and I can't find anything concrete), but I personally hope that they don't abandon every single aspect from Forces for future games. I definitely want to see the custom character make more appearances, and I think a more fleshed-out and lengthy dark-ish storyline could work in a future Sonic title. As far as the gameplay goes, no matter what, I do hope that they make sure the next game has much tighter controls.

[molul]

I personally think almost everything in Forces if garbage, after watching a full gameplay. Plot is dumb, music is cheesy as hell (I hate vocals), the Avatar instead of controlling known characters is crap, and enemies could be removed and you'd almost not notice.

Only graphics are good in Forces, in my opinion.

[Tarnish]

33 minutes ago, molul said:

Only graphics are good in Forces, in my opinion.

Eh, I would say even that's a mixed bag. They make the stages where you're pretty much forced to go fast due to dashpad after dashpad quite detailed, then in cutscenes where you actually have time to look at things they give you such masterpiece like this:

All the technical marvels of late 6th gen/early 7th gen texture detail and poly count?

[Mad Convoy]

7 hours ago, molul said:

Hmm. So, because indie games have a hard time to sell for obvious reasons, and this game called Psychonauts didn't sell well despite being good, I should think a game made by SEGA (not indie) around an old and loved (and with lots of potential in terms of image and gameplay) franchise wouldn't succeed?

I understand the exceptions you're pointing out, but my point stands, and I'm completing it with the obvious now: generally, good games, specially if made by big companies with big marketing resources, sell well.

OTOH, Ristar and Nights couldn't be considered secondary mascots now, but they could if Sega starts to treat them as such.

Well, not necessarily, but what do you think makes them any different than, say, Psychonauts in terms of mass market appeal (which I think was the point of the post you're responding to)? Or hell, given how Sega marketing seems to be non-existent, what would make them different from those indie games that failed to sell because of little marketing?

For that matter, Alien Colonial Marines proves that bad games unfortunately can sell a lot. Again, we'd like to think if developers work hard, are good people, and make good games they'll be rich and beloved but in reality that often isn't often the case. I've demonstrated one with Sega regarding Sonic and the Black Knight and I can do it again with Tembo the Badass Elephant, Sonic Lost World WiiU, and many more if need be.

Okay, but how are they going to make people care? Ristar isn't well-known-- again the secondary mascots you cited from Nintendo all had a strong precedent for being well-liked, well-known characters connected to their main mascot when they came to rise to prominence. Really, only Nights and Samba de Amigo have any sizable connection to Sonic for comparison and even then the connection is much looser than, say, Donkey Kong and Yoshi to Mario.

I mean, I like these old Sega franchises and characters, but I'm with @McGroose in thinking that they lack appeal for the modern audience and would face an uphill battle for recognition. Now, that doesn't mean that they 100% have no chance of succeeding. It just means that its way too risky to be worthwhile for much more than farming out to a third party (which is unlikely to happen because, again, not many people outside the fandom really care about Ristar and crew) or making a low-budget spinoff.

[molul]

Look at Cuphead. An indie game that has sold 2 millions in 3 months more or less. Why couldn't a new Ristar game, it done well, and with Sega behind, sell as much? Let the Taxman do it. He actually wanted to make a remaster of Ristar, as with Chaotix or Dynamite Headdy.

[Mad Convoy]

17 minutes ago, molul said:

Look at Cuphead. An indie game that has sold 2 millions in 3 months more or less. Why couldn't a new Ristar game, it done well, and with Sega behind, sell as much? Let the Taxman do it. He actually wanted to make a remaster of Ristar, as with Chaotix or Dynamite Headdy.

I never said it couldn't, just that it would be incredibly difficult considering the uphill battle it would have to get recognition, moreso than any new IPs like Cuphead because the developers not only have to establish it for new players and modernize the game, but also make sure that what made the original fun and appealing isn't lost. You're equating establishing a new IP based on a pastiche of an iconic style to establishing a remake/revival of an obscure but not entirely without a fandom character-- they absolutely do not require the same skills and while both are quite difficult, the latter is much harder to successfully pull off than the former.

For that matter, I turn the question back onto you. How could a new Ristar game, if done well, and with Sega behind it, sell well? I'm not saying this rhetorically-- I've thought out how it would be too risky to be worthwhile, but I would like to understand your perspective better as I sense a miscommunication here.

[Meta77]

2 hours ago, molul said:

Look at Cuphead. An indie game that has sold 2 millions in 3 months more or less. Why couldn't a new Ristar game, it done well, and with Sega behind, sell as much? Let the Taxman do it. He actually wanted to make a remaster of Ristar, as with Chaotix or Dynamite Headdy.

just cause one lone indie game with a unique swing *cupheads retro retro* graphics and word of mouth difficulty help it sell. While games such as YL also a new indie have a hard time even getting 2 feet off the ground. Just cause sega could toss a Ristar game out there among most of their ips the thought of it selling well just cause is not sound.

 

and vocals in modern sonic games are a godsend over anything else. I actually chuckled at that bit

 

[McGroose]

The best thing they can do for their old 2D franchises is give them a Mania-esque revive, either with similar pixel art of their original counterparts or a different artstyle, but going 3D with those games would likely end disastrously. A new HD 2D Ristar and Streets of Rage would do wonders.

[BlueFlare]

6 hours ago, molul said:

I personally think almost everything in Forces if garbage...  music is cheesy as hell (I hate vocals)

I agree a lot of Forces music actually suck. Also not a big fan of vocals but I have a weak spot for things like Sonic CD and Mania having actual lyrics in Stardust Speedway and Metallic Madness and I want that stuff for the future games also.