Best Sonic Game Story

[Sega DogTagz]

Eggman doting on Sage is just another round-about way of doting on himself anyway. He even makes sure to pat himself on the back in one of his Egg Memo's.

 

Playing up some of his positive traits, and showcasing affection for his own handiwork is not some wild departure from his normal baselines. It doesn't get in the way of any of his aspirations. It doesn't limit any of his avenues of getting to where he wants to be. 

[Wraith]

I'm not going to win the argument on whether or not it's believable. It still doesn't sit right with me but I'll let it go until I replay some Sonic games that aren't Sonic 2 or Mania. 

I will say how they executed it makes for a less interesting story, though. Eggman bonds with Sage mostly off screen. Sage's ideology changes enough for her to sway him into helping Sonic, something he normally does when the chips are down anyway, but not enough for any more interesting developments to happen. They didn't leverage Eggman's newfound love for this girl to wring anything new out of him. Sage's development is either offscreen or delivered through exposition so they avoid any nuanced writing for the most part. Everything about how it was delivered left me feeling cold. 

[ZinogreVolt]

I agree with Eggman not getting his due screentime, and some of the memos should've been made into proper cutscenes. With Sage? She got plenty of screentime and the throughline for her development was obvious, it never felt as if any pieces to her character was missing since she was practically the deuteragonist. The only thing I'm still left scratching my head about was her weird color change after her emotions fully come to the forefront. 

[Kuzu]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

A daughter who, despite her own nice qualities, is also a villain and totally complicit in Eggman's villainy.

She reviewed his entire campaign history and objected to precisely none of it.

Someone brought up a good point before how Eggman only agreed to help Sonic at Sage's behest. Any time Eggman helped Sonic before, he mostly did it for pragmatic reasons.

This is the first and only time he had to be persuaded to do it, and Sage was the catalyst for it.

For perspective, y'all remember what was the catalyst for Shadow's Face Turn? 

 

So we've established that Eggman is willing to give up on his ambitions if its for the sake of Sage. You can literally run with that and have Eggman have to choose between his conquest or his child.

 

Like I said, if you're gonna give Eggman redeeming qualities and tone down his villainy, you may as well do something with it. And you yourself already prefer this type of Eggman anyway, I'm literally giving this to you.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like I said, if you're gonna give Eggman redeeming qualities and tone down his villainy, you may as well do something with it. And you yourself already prefer this type of Eggman anyway, I'm literally giving this to you.

My preferred Eggman is a bit more nuanced than that.

While I wouldn't hate a full-blown heroic Eggman (I write a fanfic about just that), I still would ultimately prefer an Eggman who remains a villain, albeit with sympathetic qualities.

In order of preference, it's like this:

1. Sympathetic villain Eggman (Games, X, Boom, IDW)
2. Hero Eggman (Doesn't canonically exist outside of parallel dimensional counterparts in Archie or alter-egos like Dr. Kintobor or Mr. Tinker)
3. Total bastard villain Eggman, which I sub-divide into still entertaining (Archie, OVA, Movie, etc.) and super serious and boring (SatAM Robotnik mostly)

Basically: I vastly prefer tier 1 above all, but still like the (mostly hypothetical) tier 2 more than tier 3. And if it has to be tier 3, at least make him funny.

The kind of total face-turn you're talking about wouldn't be the worst, but it still wouldn't be the best.

[Darkvizardberrytan]

7 hours ago, Kuzu said:

If you read the entire post (and not just quoting the part you disagree with...) then you'd know I wasn't talking about "the nature of things" but the series as a whole with how Eggman has been portrayed.

Learn to ignore the past pro trail. While things are connected Frontiers and going forward has shown they want to try to truly connect thins. IDW Eggman has been shown boding people left and right but at the end of the day loves his creations. I mean were talking about a man that blows up half the moon, shoots sonic in to space to kill him, holds a gun to amys head, blows up a occupied island and then at the end of the game. Oh my granddad went crazy I got to help stop this crazy lizard that shoved a space station up his butt to ram it into earth and everyone at the end is just fine with it honestly till the next game. At least now hopefully he can stay more true to his IDW self if Ian keeps writing him.

[Kuzu]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

My preferred Eggman is a bit more nuanced than that.

While I wouldn't hate a full-blown heroic Eggman (I write a fanfic about just that), I still would ultimately prefer an Eggman who remains a villain, albeit with sympathetic qualities.

In order of preference, it's like this:

1. Sympathetic villain Eggman (Games, X, Boom, IDW)
2. Hero Eggman (Doesn't canonically exist outside of parallel dimensional counterparts in Archie or alter-egos like Dr. Kintobor or Mr. Tinker)
3. Total bastard villain Eggman, which I sub-divide into still entertaining (Archie, OVA, Movie, etc.) and super serious and boring (SatAM Robotnik mostly)

Basically: I vastly prefer tier 1 above all, but still like the (mostly hypothetical) tier 2 more than tier 3. And if it has to be tier 3, at least make him funny.

The kind of total face-turn you're talking about wouldn't be the worst, but it still wouldn't be the best.

I mean, if you're gonna make him sympathetic to the point of what the Sonic X comics/Anime and Boom did, then he only qualifies as a villain in a technical sense.

At that point, you might as well just drop the pretense.

[Sega DogTagz]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

So we've established that Eggman is willing to give up on his ambitions if its for the sake of Sage. You can literally run with that and have Eggman have to choose between his conquest or his child.

 

What? What ambition did Eggman give up on? Last time I checked, Teaming up with Sonic to save the world from being obliterated only helps his main objective of ruling over it. Can't rule over something thats 100% not there.

Doc swallowed a little pride to being forced to work with Sonic, but he did so as a last resort and it was obviously in his best interests. Sage didn't convince him to give up being a bad guy or change anything about who he was.  All she did was lay out the single, most logical choice and asked him to make the call that needed to be made.

 

You can't extrapolate that to having Eggman choose between his conquest and his child because at the end of the day Sage wants what Eggman wants. Ensuring his survival goes hand in hand with him eventually conquering the world. She'd sacrifice herself to ensure Eggy was around to try and dominate the world tomorrow.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

My preferred Eggman is a bit more nuanced than that.

While I wouldn't hate a full-blown heroic Eggman (I write a fanfic about just that), I still would ultimately prefer an Eggman who remains a villain, albeit with sympathetic qualities.

In order of preference, it's like this:

1. Sympathetic villain Eggman (Games, X, Boom, IDW)
2. Hero Eggman (Doesn't canonically exist outside of parallel dimensional counterparts in Archie or alter-egos like Dr. Kintobor or Mr. Tinker)
3. Total bastard villain Eggman, which I sub-divide into still entertaining (Archie, OVA, Movie, etc.) and super serious and boring (SatAM Robotnik mostly)

Basically: I vastly prefer tier 1 above all, but still like the (mostly hypothetical) tier 2 more than tier 3. And if it has to be tier 3, at least make him funny.

The kind of total face-turn you're talking about wouldn't be the worst, but it still wouldn't be the best.

Are you sure IDW Eggman fits the “Sympathetic” Tier? Not even considering it’s canon to the games…the guy still threw a plague and started a war in the past. Guy still fits the the third tier if you ask me.

Mind you, my ideal Eggman would be more of a visionary villain whose ambition will see any means to an end to get his empire. Allows him to have nicer qualities while still doing heinous war crimes like unleashing viruses on people to assume control.

A very dark shade of grey if you will.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

They literally just gave him a daughter out of nowhere.

Not really. She started as an AI and developed into her own being. By that logic, any new character that comes about just "comes out of nowhere".

[Kuzu]

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Not really. She started as an AI and developed into her own being. By that logic, any new character that comes about just "comes out of nowhere".

When there's no prior build up to it? Yes, that's exactly what it is.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

My preferred Eggman is a bit more nuanced than that.

While I wouldn't hate a full-blown heroic Eggman (I write a fanfic about just that), I still would ultimately prefer an Eggman who remains a villain, albeit with sympathetic qualities.

In order of preference, it's like this:

1. Sympathetic villain Eggman (Games, X, Boom, IDW)
2. Hero Eggman (Doesn't canonically exist outside of parallel dimensional counterparts in Archie or alter-egos like Dr. Kintobor or Mr. Tinker)
3. Total bastard villain Eggman, which I sub-divide into still entertaining (Archie, OVA, Movie, etc.) and super serious and boring (SatAM Robotnik mostly)

Basically: I vastly prefer tier 1 above all, but still like the (mostly hypothetical) tier 2 more than tier 3. And if it has to be tier 3, at least make him funny.

The kind of total face-turn you're talking about wouldn't be the worst, but it still wouldn't be the best.

Are you sure IDW Eggman fits the “Sympathetic” Tier? Not even considering it’s canon to the games…the guy still threw a plague and started a war in the past. Guy still fits the the third tier if you ask me.

Mind you, my ideal Eggman would be more of a visionary villain whose ambition will see any means to an end to get his empire. Allows him to have nicer qualities while still doing heinous war crimes like unleashing viruses on people to assume control.

A very dark shade of grey if you will.

To be fair, Mechano stated he prefers an Eggman with sympathetic qualities, but not necessarily one who's sympathetic on the whole.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

To be fair, Mechano stated he prefers an Eggman with sympathetic qualities, but not necessarily one who's sympathetic on the whole.

Okay, fair enough.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Kuzu said:

When there's no prior build up to it? Yes, that's exactly what it is.

I mean, she shows up in a form far different from how we first "see" her in the plot, but we retroactively figure out how she came into being. It's not necessarily a case where she just came out of nowhere.

[Kuzu]

14 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What? What ambition did Eggman give up on? Last time I checked, Teaming up with Sonic to save the world from being obliterated only helps his main objective of ruling over it. Can't rule over something thats 100% not there.

Doc swallowed a little pride to being forced to work with Sonic, but he did so as a last resort and it was obviously in his best interests. Sage didn't convince him to give up being a bad guy or change anything about who he was.  All she did was lay out the single, most logical choice and asked him to make the call that needed to be made.

You can't extrapolate that to having Eggman choose between his conquest and his child because at the end of the day Sage wants what Eggman wants. Ensuring his survival goes hand in hand with him eventually conquering the world. She'd sacrifice herself to ensure Eggy was around to try and dominate the world tomorrow.

That was a hypothetical scenario if they wanna continue this direction.

But I wanna reiterate; that was not the reasoning they used this time. Eggman usually never needs persuading to help Sonic, but they wanted to sell this parental bond he had with Sage, so they had him refuse to help Sonic until Sage begged him.

 

And the point of that was to establish that Sage brings out the humanity in Eggman.

[Dr. Mechano]

14 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Are you sure IDW Eggman fits the “Sympathetic” Tier? Not even considering it’s canon to the games…the guy still threw a plague and started a war in the past. Guy still fits the the third tier if you ask me.

Mind you, my ideal Eggman would be more of a visionary villain whose ambition will see any means to an end to get his empire. Allows him to have nicer qualities while still doing heinous war crimes like unleashing viruses on people to assume control.

A very dark shade of grey if you will.

IDW Eggman (who may or may not just be game Eggman now, I don't know) has some sympathetic points sometimes, most notably of all seen in "Dr. Eggman's Birthday":

He goes out of his way to protect his Badniks, who launch an unprepared attack on Sonic:

Then later expresses his appreciation for them, albeit in a typically gruff way:

He's still a bad guy on the whole, but he's capable of showing kindness to his troops at times, which makes him a lot more likable to me than if he didn't have that fleeting fondness for them, you know?

Plus, amnesia-induced or no, "Mr. Tinker" still had to come from somewhere in Eggman's actual subconscious. That's still a real aspect of who Eggman is, just brought to the surface without his memories of spending years trying to take over the world. Way deep down, some part of Eggman's mind created that persona in the absence of any other information to go on.

I'm not saying he's "sympathetic" wholly or that his evil is justified - just that he has some humanizing, even nice, qualities from time to time.

[Kuzu]

10 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I mean, she shows up in a form far different from how we first "see" her in the plot, but we retroactively figure out how she came into being. It's not necessarily a case where she just came out of nowhere.

Its a case where because the audience did not see the circumstances behind her creation or her transformation into a sentient AI.

You can do the mental work and put the pieces together sure, but the build up isn't there in actuality.

That's what I mean by "out of nowhere".

 

So operating under that, you can easily justify Eggman becoming more heroic and wouldn't be any more out of nowhere than what they established here.

[Sega DogTagz]

2 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

And the point of that was to establish that Sage brings out the humanity in Eggman.

but she doesn't... and you can't just label it as such considering

 

1. Working with Sonic was the single, most logical choice.

2. Working with Sonic was more or less literally the last option on the table

3. Working with Sonic was not a choice hampered by Eggmans lack of humanity in the first place.

 

 

Doc didn't want to work with Sonic for purely Egotistical reasons. It had nothing to do with some lack of humanity that Sage helped bring to the surface.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

but she doesn't... and you can't just label it as such considering

1. Working with Sonic was the single, most logical choice.

2. Working with Sonic was more or less literally the last option on the table

3. Working with Sonic was not a choice hampered by Eggmans lack of humanity in the first place.

Doc didn't want to work with Sonic for purely Egotistical reasons. It had nothing to do with some lack of humanity that Sage helped bring to the surface.

You're missing the point man. If Sage can get Eggman to partially compromise on one of his defining villainous traits, his ego, then you've already opened Pandora's Box right there.

They have now established a character who can, under the right circumstances, nurture Eggman's positive traits.

This is doubly so since IDW is canon now, so you have Mr. Tinkerer to back that up.

 

 

Hell, by that point Sage isn't trying to be "logical" anymore. She's acting on her emotions after being moved by Team Sonic's display of friendship.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

You're missing the point man. If Sage can get Eggman to partially compromise on one of his defining villainous traits, his ego, then you've already opened Pandora's Box right there.

They have now established a character who can, under the right circumstances, nurture Eggman's positive traits.

This is doubly so since IDW is canon now, so you have Mr. Tinkerer to back that up.

Hell, by that point Sage isn't trying to be "logical" anymore. She's acting on her emotions after being moved by Team Sonic's display of friendship.

The problem with this logic is that this implies that Eggman compromised his own evil scheme working with Sonic.

When in reality, he's done this song and dance before teaming up with Sonic when neccessary,  so it's not really compromising anything beyond his ego.

There's nothing really in the form if nurturing more human traits in Eggman with Sage reasoning out for him to work with Sonic (which he even excuses as inducting Sonic into the Eggman Empire anyway).

33 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Its a case where because the audience did not see the circumstances behind her creation or her transformation into a sentient AI.

You can do the mental work and put the pieces together sure, but the build up isn't there in actuality.

That's what I mean by "out of nowhere".

So operating under that, you can easily justify Eggman becoming more heroic and wouldn't be any more out of nowhere than what they established here.

Eggman doesn't even become more heroic though.

And regardless, no it still doesn't count as coming out of nowhere without having to do one pretty big stretch.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I actually get the idea of it "coming out of nowhere" and somewhat agree with it.

We see Eggman create his new AI and stick it onto the Ancient's cyberspace portal and find himself get stuck in Cyberspace...but then, after that we just see Sage.

We don't see the device actually reformat itself to show how Sage is formed, we don't see the details in which Sage is formed--Sage just...appears. And then we see her and Eggman interacting on good terms, Eggman praising her and giving orders, progress reports about their status, her telling about Sonic and how she's giving him hell, and Eggman saying he'll put her in control of the Eggnet, which makes it clear that she's entirely working with Eggman. So there's no mystery in who she's aligned with. But we don't see how she goes from "Eggman's new device" to "Digital Hologram AI," and we just see pretty trivial interactions that don't really build as much into each other as they should.

Granted, we do see Sage coming to Eggman's defense with GUN helicopters, and she does say she's entirely dedicated to protecting him. But the connection is...present, but hollow. For example, in Mania, we see see how the Hardboiled Heavies are actually created or formed from just regular EggRobos in proximity of the Phantom Ruby, but Sage doesn't even get that much time dedicated to her.

It's one of those "Show, don't Tell" things that was skipped over. Would've been nice to actually see.

Or maybe I'm missing something entirely. That's the way I'm looking at it at least.

[Sega DogTagz]

20 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

It's one of those "Show, don't Tell" things that was skipped over. Would've been nice to actually see.

Or maybe I'm missing something entirely. That's the way I'm looking at it at least.

 

Its not like that transition isn't in the game at all though. The Egg Memo's lay out the transition in Eggman's thinking toward Sage and had  multiple entries dedicated to him seeing her as more than just a program.

 

Yes that piece of content should have been put right in front of the viewer via cutscene and not in some optional side content, but you can't just pretend like its not there at all either.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

38 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Its not like that transition isn't in the game at all though. The Egg Memo's lay out the transition in Eggman's thinking toward Sage and had  multiple entries dedicated to him seeing her as more than just a program.

Yes that piece of content should have been put right in front of the viewer via cutscene and not in some optional side content, but you can't just pretend like its not there at all either.

I’m aware, but that’s a case of “tell, don’t show” and that what actually weakens it as far as making the audience aware.

Kinda like how Eggman tells Shadow at the last second of his game’s final boss that he rescued him from burning in the atmosphere, it’s something that we would be better off seeing rather than being told about it.

Egg Memos are useful for extra detail, don’t get me wrong, but words alone (and in the background) can only do so much.

[Darkvizardberrytan]

I mean by that flawed logic Metal came out of nowhere in the 90s. Sonic cd drops and this random metal guy that looks like sonic is in the game. No word on how or why. That said eggman also as stated above constantly wavers back and forth at times. He helped take down the "ark", he helped give advice on how to stop neo, he helped with solaris, he helped with zetti, so on and so forth.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

13 hours ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

I mean by that flawed logic Metal came out of nowhere in the 90s. Sonic cd drops and this random metal guy that looks like sonic is in the game. No word on how or why.
 

Technically, yes. Metal Sonic too.

Guy pops out of nowhere in Collision Chaos, snatches Amy, and flies away. No idea what he has to do with anything unless you read the back cover synopsis or reach Stardust Speedway.