Best Sonic Game Story

[Rabbitearsblog]

6 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

It's a good return to form, but I'm not sure I'd call it the best.

It's still a pretty keen story, but it doesn't have quite the narrative heights of the series at its absolute best.

That said, I can very well see the stories just getting better and better, so long as they keep Flynn around and let him work his magic to a reasonable degree.

I also hope that Flynn stays around on the games.  I do wonder how they would adapt the Metal Virus story line into the games, if they decided to take more cues from the IDW comics for future games.  I have a feeling that they might change a few things in the story to make it work with the games.

[MetalSkulkBane]

2 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

I also hope that Flynn stays around on the games.  I do wonder how they would adapt the Metal Virus story line into the games, if they decided to take more cues from the IDW comics for future games.  I have a feeling that they might change a few things in the story to make it work with the games.

It wouldn't really work, I think. The strengths of this arc can't be easily replicated with gameplay.

[StaticMania]

One thing could be done as a level gimmick, but...that's about it.

[Dr. Mechano]

I would also say that there shouldn't be game adaptations of IDW, or comic adaptations of the games. If IDW is meant to be canon, then its storylines are meant to supplement the games and take place between them, not provide their own separate versions of the games' events, or vice-versa. If IDW is canon, then the metal virus story already happened sometime between Forces and Frontiers.

I don't love that, honestly, as I feel like the entire conceit of turning everyone on the planet into emotionless zombies feels a little too drab and lifeless for an attention-seeking manchild like Eggman (the bad-future city from the upcoming Sonic Prime looks a lot more like what I'd expect, since it has actual people living in it). But eh, I can accept that it's canon since it's been decreed to be so. I'll just chalk it up to him waking up in an especially foul mood from all the torture Starline put him through to get his memories back.

[ZinogreVolt]

Hard pass on adapting IDW stories into games. Not only are the stories good as they are, but adapting a comic book story into a game means a lot of concessions would have to be made to fit it into a new medium. There's gonna be compromises if something like that happens, and I'd rather they just stick to telling stories that best fit the format.

[StaticMania]

Video games rarely have stories that "best fit the medium"...anyway.

It needs a little more "context".

[Rabbitearsblog]

1 hour ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Hard pass on adapting IDW stories into games. Not only are the stories good as they are, but adapting a comic book story into a game means a lot of concessions would have to be made to fit it into a new medium. There's gonna be compromises if something like that happens, and I'd rather they just stick to telling stories that best fit the format.

I agree. I can see a lot of changes happening to the stories if they moved them to the games.  Like, I can imagine the stories being shortened to an extent and that wouldn't be good for the story overall.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I could think of many ways to adapt the Metal Virus arc into the games, but the main change needed is that there needs to be a cure available from the start and the narrative tension involves fighting off hordes until it becomes available around the world.

You’d have Green or Blue zones for virus-free sections, Yellow zones for mild infections, and Red Zones for “do not enter” territory.

Kinda like the game Prototype in that sense, but much less bloody and gorey. I guess cartoony, in a way?

I’d change the story as an incident gone wrong. Maybe like a Gray Goo scenario that Eggman didn’t intend to let get out of control instead of one he decide to dump and literally plague people with for shits, giggles, and absolute control—say he captured one of his enemies and decided to make the a test subject of the virus, only for them to spread it more than he wanted. With Sage, he could ironically control it much better to a degree…but then you have the Deadly Six who can wrestle control from Sage and spread it unchecked.

You guys would be surprised at the ways you can adapt the Metal Virus arc in ways different from how IDW did it. Mind you, I didn’t really mind Eggman being an evil-ass bastard intentionally plaguing the planet with it.

[Kuzu]

Eggman being a petty asshole with the virus and paying for it was one of its best parts tbh. 

But now that Eggman and the one that is good ole jolly papa to Sage are one and the same. 

 

 

I have to wonder what was going through Flynn's head when they decided on this more humanized version of Eggman after he attempted a genocide within IDW.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Eggman being a petty asshole with the virus and paying for it was one of its best parts tbh. 

But now that Eggman and the one that is good ole jolly papa to Sage are one and the same. 

I have to wonder what was going through Flynn's head when they decided on this more humanized version of Eggman after he attempted a genocide within IDW.

I mean, it's not hard to fathom a guy who cares for someone like a daughter, still doing heinous acts.

I don't see why that's hard to get.

[Kuzu]

Just now, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I mean, it's not hard to fathom a guy who cares for someone like a daughter still doing heinous acts.

I don't see why that's hard to get.

Well look at like this. 

 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Well look at like this. 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

I mean, a terrible person is capable of doing good-natured things. Life's not just black and white morality all around.

We see this in plenty of media.

Granted, having redeeming qualities doesn't necessarily wipe away evil deeds.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

22 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Well look at like this. 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

Bro, Arcane has this character Silco, basically Eggman if he were a Mafia Godfather.

Would kill someone else’s kid (or threaten to at least—never actually saw him kill children despite others like the heroes doing so onscreen), leak drugs into the streets, poison water supplies, burn crops, and deliver a plague onto your house if it meant creating a country for his people.

But that same man would rather go through hell and die (and he does) than give away his adopted daughter for the crime of bombing a street with police officers and stealing a magical equivalent of nuclear weapons grade fuel.

Believe me when I say it can work spectacularly. People are fully aware that Silco is a bad, evil, unhinged guy when they’re not putting him in leather pants, but his love in his daughter is very much genuine.

As an added bonus, he was more than willing to kill that same adopted daughter for ruining his plans before he adopted her.

Very telling.

I can see that working for Eggman regarding Sage. Maybe not as vicious as Silco and Jinx, but it can definitely work. A toxic, but excellent father—an oxymoron, I know, but it sold me.

[Razule]

18 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

So, does anyone think that Sonic Frontiers' story is a good contender for best story in the Sonic games?

It's definitely the best story in the past decade. The character interactions are the highlight, the mystery behind the Ancients and Kocos was interesting, and Sage has potential.

I'd like to see Flynn write a story that's less confined to one location. More things going on, a less subdued tone.

[Razule]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well look at like this. 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

Eggman's self-serving enough to be able to destroy other people's lives and families, while only caring about his own. Sage is legacy. She, and all of his creations, is an extension of him.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

Well look at like this. 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

Like do you think stuff like this doesn't happen, or.

Like in all the violence throughout human history, nobody's ever committed atrocities and then gone home to a loving family.

That's kinda just what most evil is. Us vs Them.

[Dr. Mechano]

33 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Like do you think stuff like this doesn't happen, or.

Like in all the violence throughout human history, nobody's ever committed atrocities and then gone home to a loving family.

That's kinda just what most evil is. Us vs Them.

Right. If anything, this makes Eggman even more bad.

Because he's not some kind of one-dimensional monster who doesn't understand love. He totally does understand it, and even feels it himself for other people who matter to him. But he's still willing to try to kill (or at least recklessly endanger) people all the time.

To me, that's so much worse than something like Dark Gaia or Iblis or even more intelligent villains like Black Doom or even The End, who just feel like living embodiments of destruction. They're like these primal forces that can only and will only cause harm, because that's just kinda how they innately are. You almost can't hold them responsible for it, even if you still have to stop them. They're in "kill and destroy" mode literally all the time.

Eggman doesn't have that excuse. He's human enough to know what love is. To care for others. To know how much it hurts to lose someone precious to him, even. And still, despite all of that, he's selfish enough and committed enough to his ultimate goal to put others through that kind of pain and loss anyway if it will get him what he wants. 

Humanizing Eggman might make him a bit more sympathetic, but on the other hand it also makes him more culpable.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Eggman's mentality is best put, as someone who thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and isn't afraid to break a few eggs while making the omelette.

People get hurt? Simple. They got in his way as far as he's concerned. In the way of the bigger picture; ergo, him remaking the world all for the better.

In this, he does still have capacity for good in some areas, but he's still the series' main villain for a good reason.

[The Deleter]

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Like do you think stuff like this doesn't happen, or.

Like in all the violence throughout human history, nobody's ever committed atrocities and then gone home to a loving family.

That's kinda just what most evil is. Us vs Them.

I'm not sure why we're acting like we want that. This concept of someone who loves and dotes on family unconditionally, while also not hesitating to cause the direct suffering of others, is reserved for the worst-of-the-worst human beings in history. At best they are "deep" to those who relate to the idea of having enemies to their ideology, but anyone who doesn't relate to those worldviews are usually immediately repulsed by their sheer lack of humanity in their hypocrisy. It is possibly one of the most irredeemable positions for a villain to be in, considering how much it parallels the real world hypocrisy and evil we see in our history and lives. All in service of what?

Just because it's possible for a villain to have these dynamics does not mean they are desirable compared to what came before.

[Razule]

15 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

I'm not sure why we're acting like we want that. This concept of someone who loves and dotes on family unconditionally, while also not hesitating to cause the direct suffering of others, is reserved for the worst-of-the-worst human beings in history. At best they are "deep" to those who relate to the idea of having enemies to their ideology, but anyone who doesn't relate to those worldviews are usually immediately repulsed by their sheer lack of humanity in their hypocrisy. It is possibly one of the most irredeemable positions for a villain to be in, considering how much it parallels the real world hypocrisy and evil we see in our history and lives. All in service of what?

Just because it's possible for a villain to have these dynamics does not mean they are desirable compared to what came before.

That sounds like every antagonist with redeeming qualities to me. It's one of the most popular kinds of villains. They wreak havoc, attempt to destroy* (*doesn't sound as harsh as murder) their teenage nemeses, and then pet a dog or something to show they're not all bad.

Helps they're usually in kid's show where collateral damage is nonexistent.

[Dr. Mechano]

16 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

At best they are "deep" to those who relate to the idea of having enemies to their ideology, but anyone who doesn't relate to those worldviews are usually immediately repulsed by their sheer lack of humanity in their hypocrisy.

The thing is, Eggman doesn't have a coherent political ideology outside of wanting power and attention for its own sake. He can't really neatly parallel any real-world extremist views, because his motivation is essentially "I'm the best, so I should be in charge."

18 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

This concept of someone who loves and dotes on family unconditionally, while also not hesitating to cause the direct suffering of others, is reserved for the worst-of-the-worst human beings in history.

Or Bowser, one of the most celebrated villains in all of gaming.

He's consistently depicted as a loving dad, but he's still willing to kidnap royalty, conquer kingdoms (or even entire galaxies), entrap innocent people in everything from bricks to castle walls to crystals, and try his best to end Mario's existence.

The Mario fandom never really worries about whether there's any tonal dissonance between Bowser's villainy and his fatherhood. They're both accepted as perfectly harmonious aspects of the same character. I know Eggman and Bowser aren't one-for-one in terms of personality or villainous accomplishments, but I'd say they're similar enough that the loose premise of Eggman being a good dad while remaining an overall bad man can still work.

[The Deleter]

10 minutes ago, Razule said:

That sounds like every antagonist with redeeming qualities to me. It's one of the most popular kinds of villains. They wreak havoc, attempt to destroy (doesn't sound as harsh as murder) their teenage nemeses, and then pet a dog or something to show they're not all bad.

That's not a "redeeming quality" at that point. The racist going home to a cozy homecooked meal is not a "oh this person has so much potential change and to do good" moment, it's a "oh this person is so far gone they've actively made and live by these choices" moment. The Fuhrur in Fullmetal Alchemist was not "redeemable" because of his family, it simply humanized him to the point where you could see the depth of his mindset in how he approached life, but villainized the rest of his actions because of the choices he makes in spite of that. He became more of a bastard as a result of that depth, not less of one.

Maybe the concept has been brought down to a smaller scale with those theoretical villains (none come to mind tbh) that it's now more pedestrian of a concept, like a Hunter X Hunter villain not effecting much, that a fanbase can gush about the potential in the future in the fannon pipeline, but this is Eggman we're talking about, not a teenage heartthrob.

[The Deleter]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

The thing is, Eggman doesn't have a coherent political ideology outside of wanting power and attention for its own sake. He can't really neatly parallel any real-world extremist views, because his motivation is essentially "I'm the best, so I should be in charge."

That doesn't exactly make much of a difference if the actions are still the same.

Quote

 

Or Bowser, one of the most celebrated villains in all of gaming.

He's consistently depicted as a loving dad, but he's still willing to kidnap royalty, conquer kingdoms (or even entire galaxies), entrap innocent people in everything from bricks to castle walls to crystals, and try his best to end Mario's existence.

The Mario fandom never really worries about whether there's any tonal dissonance between Bowser's villainy and his fatherhood. They're both accepted as perfectly harmonious aspects of the same character. I know Eggman and Bowser aren't one-for-one in terms of personality or villainous accomplishments, but I'd say they're similar enough that the loose premise of Eggman being a good dad while remaining an overall bad man can still work.

 

Do I really need to address Bowser characterization? The villain who flip flops between being soft or hard, incompetent or competent, angry and prickly or doting and understanding? Intergalactic conqueror one game, popeye villain dynamics the next? The Mario fandom accepts tonal dissonance because there's never been any claim to a strict tone and characterization alongside it, as they basically accept that the games are the equivalent of stage plays and will drastically vary depending on the situation at hand. No one's going to be upset that Bowser has a kid and be portrayed in a living room setting because value on the narrative and characterization has never been there to begin with, not to mention the entire lack of an importance placed on his supposed grey morality. If they did, Mario and Luigi fans would be upset with his characterization in the Paper Mario games, as if it was something worth retaining due to past precedence. They aren't, because that's simply not how the Mario series works.

[Darkvizardberrytan]

3 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Well look at like this. 

If I blow up an orphanage full of kids, but then show I'm loving a parent to my own kids. Then the whole thing is kind of jarring, at least to me it is. 

Not really that is just basic storytelling. I am not sure people have been reading the stories that well. Eggman can still be fully evil but care about the things he makes. Hell he could destroy cubot and gang anytime for messing up all the time but doesnt. He could have easily had metal sonic kill belle but did not cause of her connections to him and her more than likely being infected with his program aka sage in someway going forward (family drama)

 

But all in all Frontiers has been one of the better Sonic stories in decades. Looking back if one is honest Sonic games have never just had great stories from front to end.

[Dr. Mechano]

9 minutes ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

Hell he could destroy cubot and gang anytime for messing up all the time but doesnt.

He goes even further than simply not harming Orbot and Cubot; He goes out of his way to save them in Lost World, swooping down toward the lava to pick them up instead of simply escaping by himself.

I'm not saying he has the same fatherly affection toward them as he does to Sage; he obviously doesn't, and regularly berates the two of them. But on some level, he cared enough about them to bother rescuing them. He doesn't merely view his robots as expendable.

Plus if IDW's canon now, that means the "Dr. Eggman's Birthday" story - where Eggman goes out of his way to call off a Badnik attack because it will endanger his unprepared robots, and even expresses genuine gratitude toward them for doing something nice for his birthday - shows that Eggman can be a decent boss to his robots, even if he's usually a bit gruff and impatient with them.

All this to say, Eggman's love for Sage may be the most blatantly we've seen his care and fondness for his creations thus far, but those traits are still founded on prior appearances where Eggman has shown his robots some modicum of kindness. It's not totally out of nowhere.