Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

26 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

No other franchise has to deal with anything like this.

No other franchise so consistently fucks up like Sonic does, or at least not while staying around for this long.

26 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

Mario 64 feels completely different to the Mario games before it.

I don't agree with that. There are significant changes, yes, but one of the reasons that SM64 was so successful is because it managed to translate most of what people liked about the series into 3D, in an era where so many originally-2D series were struggling to make the jump.

Plus, look at what 3D Mario is doing now. The 3D Land/World games are accurate translations of the 2D Mario formula into 3D. Games like 64 were a stepping stone defined by the limitations of the hardware of the time and early experimenting with what 3D gameplay could offer, not the final state of the series.

26 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

SA1 came out 17 years ago. Stop acting as though they can't improve upon what they did.

Then why bother with the Adventure formula anyway? I see no profound or unique insights to gain from it. We can do better than just returning to that formula.

[Pixel]

Diogenes is right yet again. The truth is that Sonic has always failed in 3D and Sonic Team really need to focus on actually making Sonic enjoyable in a 3D environment.

Sonic '17 needs to focus on that and, it if does end up being another failure, it's going to look even worse next to Mania. This is why we need to focus on Sonic.

[JosepHenry]

I also think this game should be Sonic alone too. BUT. Since the tagline of the game is "Join the Resistance" his friends are going to be some kind of resistance against Eggman (?), not playable though.

[Lucid Dream]

You guys make it sound like we're going to get characters with wildly different abilities. Even if we do get alternative characters, they're likely going to have very similar gameplay with Sonic, but with a few differences like a hover or fly ability. 

There is absolutely no need to focus on just Sonic. Having other characters does not mean we will have alternative gameplays like in SA2. 

[JosepHenry]

I wouldn't mind to play as other characters, but people for some reason hate clones... 

Also too many characters is a bit too much, play as Sonic, Shadow or Blaze is perfect for me, both are similar in gameplay but they have different gimmicks.

 

But let's not forget, that Classic Sonic is here for some reason. I hope he plays in 3D not 2D... Or else is very clear that Sonic Team still isn't confident enough.

[Sonictrainer]

13 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The truth is that Sonic has always failed in 3D and Sonic Team really need to focus on actually making Sonic enjoyable in a 3D environment.

Fans of the Adventure and Modern Era Games would disagree with you.

Also, didn't you praise Adventure Sonic not too long ago?

13 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic '17 needs to focus on that and, it if does end up being another failure, it's going to look even worse next to Mania. This is why we need to focus on Sonic.

If I can play as Tails and Knuckles in Mania, why wouldn't I be able to do so in Project 2017?

I hope as least this feature is shared between the 2.

[Kfarc]

Okay, I understand that not everyone likes Sonic in 3D, but telling it always failed in it? That's just an exaggeration. In SA1 Sonic felt natural and nice to move with him around. SA2, the same, only better. Fast forward to Sonic Generations and yes, Sonic has much more weight to his movement while moving slowly, but it is far from something bad, or even imperfect. It's just different. And thanks to the Air dash platforming works in 3D in Gens. I don't know how will Project 2017 play, but I think that Sonic Team proved that Sonic can be made enjoyble to play in 3D. And that's the most important thing.

As for characters, I don't want them to comeback SA1/2 style. I would like to see them as modificators, optional content or DLC campaings. But I want to see them in story.

Also, a side note to Diogenes: No, Mario 64 didn't translete 2D Mario to 3D. Super Mario 3D Land/World did. And 64 was successful because it reinvented Mario into 3D. And  because it was done well.

[Diogenes]

15 minutes ago, Lucid Dream said:

You guys make it sound like we're going to get characters with wildly different abilities. Even if we do get alternative characters, they're likely going to have very similar gameplay with Sonic, but with a few differences like a hover or fly ability.

That's what I'd hope for, but considering the history of the series I wouldn't go about assuming it.

5 minutes ago, Sonictrainer said:

If I can play as Tails and Knuckles in Mania, why wouldn't I be able to do so in Project 2017?

Because Sonic Team's grasp of 3D gameplay is much, much shakier than Taxman and co.'s grasp of the Genesis Sonic gameplay.

5 minutes ago, Kfarc said:

Fast forward to Sonic Generations and yes, Sonic has much more weight to his movement while moving slowly, but it is far from something bad, or even imperfect. It's just different. And thanks to the Air dash platforming works in 3D in Gens.

Sonic's movement in Generations feels awful and if you think its platforming "works" you're setting a really low bar for it.

5 minutes ago, Kfarc said:

Also, a side note to Diogenes: No, Mario 64 didn't translete 2D Mario to 3D.

Yes it did. Not one-to-one, as I said there are significant differences, but it still carried enough of the spirit that it feels like an extension of those games and not a sharp turn away from them.

[Lucid Dream]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

That's what I'd hope for, but considering the history of the series I wouldn't go about assuming it.

And why not? The last time we've had major playable side characters, they've all roughly played similarly to Sonic. In Black Knights, all the other knights roughly played like Sonic, in Sonic Rush, Blaze played like Sonic, in the Sonic Advance trio, all the side characters played like Sonic (except Amy, but she wasn't flawed either). Sonic Unleashed only had Sonic but still had alternative gameplay.

Why do you assume that multiple characters immediately equals multiple playstyles? The last game they did that in was Sonic 06, and they've learned a lot, especcially after Sonic Unleashed. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

And why not?

Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic '06, Sonic Unleashed, and Sonic Generations. They can hardly seem to stop themselves from making wildly different gameplay styles in the 3D games.

1 minute ago, Lucid Dream said:

Why do you assume that multiple characters immediately equals multiple playstyles?

Basic knowledge and understanding of the history of this series.

Again I would prefer if they took a S3&Kish "variations on the main gameplay" approach to other characters, if they decided to include them at all. I just don't trust that they would do so.

[Lucid Dream]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic '06, Sonic Unleashed, and Sonic Generations. They can hardly seem to stop themselves from making wildly different gameplay styles in the 3D games.

Basic knowledge and understanding of the history of this series.

Again I would prefer if they took a S3&Kish "variations on the main gameplay" approach to other characters, if they decided to include them at all. I just don't trust that they would do so.

Claiming Sonic Generations and Sonic Heroes has wildly alternative gameplays is pretty prepostrous. They're both speedy platforming in the end, and Sonic Heroes is still largely similar even when you switch characters. 

So based on 3 games which actually have multiple characters which have somewhat different playstyles, all of which were made at least 10 years ago, you are going to claim that it is "basic knowledge and understanding of the history of this series" to assume that any game with multiple characters will have different playstyles.

Even though we have far, far more games with multiple characters, which have the multiple characters play similarly to Sonic. We are going to seriously assume that any multiple character is going to have a wildly different playstyle to Sonic because of a game made 8 years ago? We havn't had any largely altering playstyles since Sonic Unleashed. 

[Diogenes]

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

Claiming Sonic Generations and Sonic Heroes has wildly alternative gameplays is pretty prepostrous. They're both speedy platforming in the end, and Sonic Heroes is still largely similar even when you switch characters. 

Nah, disagreed.

Just now, Lucid Dream said:

So based on 3 games which actually have multiple characters which have somewhat different playstyles, all of which were made at least 10 years ago, you are going to claim that it is "basic knowledge and understanding of the history of this series" to assume that any game with multiple characters will have different playstyles.

What evidence do you have otherwise? SatBK, which itself is a massive deviation from traditional Sonic gameplay? A bunch of handheld 2D games, most no younger than the games I've named? It shouldn't be a surprise that I expect Sonic Team to fuck it up.

[Lucid Dream]

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nah, disagreed.

What evidence do you have otherwise? SatBK, which itself is a massive deviation from traditional Sonic gameplay? A bunch of handheld 2D games, most no younger than the games I've named? It shouldn't be a surprise that I expect Sonic Team to fuck it up.

I'm talking about gameplays here, not gamestyles. Classic Sonic was only a different style, but not a new genre or anything. Same with Sonic Heroes. They're clearly Sonic games, with the gameplay we're used to. 

Sonic the Hedgehog episode 2 had Metal Sonic (and Tails I think?). Sonic Rush Adventure and Sonic and the Black knight are also examples. Also the Sonic Boom games, if you're willing to accept them. That's at least 6 games produced after Sonic 06 that have alternate characters without alternative gameplays. Add all the games around Sonic 06 and it quickly doubles.

Judging new games based on a game made 10 years ago is just sad. Sonic Team have learnt. 

[Pixel]

Sonic Team have always shoehorned some stupid gimmick with Sonic's friends in 3D. If the friends were playable in '17 then they would almost certainly have a stupid gimmick.

It isn't simply the alternate playstyles though. Even if, by some miracle, Sonic Team put the friends in without a disastrous alternate playstyle impulse, there is still considerable margin for error. Sonic has never felt good in 3D and the level design has always been dodgy in the 3D titles. The alternate characters bring new abilities, such as flight, climbing and gliding, which are difficult to implement for even skilled developers. Sonic Team would probably fuck it up and create shallow levels with poorly implemented mechanics. Even though it is by DIMPS, look at how Sonic 4 butchered Tails' flight mechanic for an example of how they could fuck the controls up. For Sonic Team, they butchered Knuckles' gliding in Sonic Heroes. The level design problem is obvious, look at Tails' broken levels in Adventure (such as Windy Valley).

If they introduce Sonic's friends in '17, they would almost certainly fuck their levels up. So I think that instead of making disastrous decisions with Sonic's friends, they should try to nail Sonic in 3D. That's the priority because they've never done it.

As for Adventure, it's the best Sonic has been in 3D but that's still not saying much. Adventure is still a terrible game with awful controls and a hideous camera.

[Blacklightning]

29 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Sonic Team have always shoehorned some stupid gimmick with Sonic's friends in 3D. If the friends were playable in '17 then they would almost certainly have a stupid gimmick.

Sonic Team still does this completely independently of how many characters are playable, so I'm not sure why people still scapegoat them for completely unrelated problems like this. If the problem is that Sonic Team does stupid gimmicks... then they should just stop doing stupid gimmicks, not overthink it like this and completely miss the point. If you've paid attention to any Sonic games as late as Lost World, you should already know that stripping playable characters from the games entirely does not in any way reduce their capacity to shove irrelevant bullshit into it.

29 minutes ago, Pixel said:

The alternate characters bring new abilities, such as flight, climbing and gliding, which are difficult to implement for even skilled developers.

I'd also like to add that I hate it when people artificially inflate the difficulty of creating and balancing a varied cast like this. Where the hell were you guys when Tropical Freeze came out?

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

I'd also like to add that I hate it when people artificially inflate the difficulty of creating and balancing a varied cast like this. Where the hell were you guys when Tropical Freeze came out?

Is a half second of "flight" how we want Tails to play, now? Tropical Freeze also doesn't give any indication of how to balance characters in a 3D platformer.

[Blacklightning]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Is a half second of "flight" how we want Tails to play, now?

...no? I made no statement on using the exact same abilities Tropical Freeze did, only that they were balanced for what they were trying to accomplish. Tails has different needs, I get that. I'm just saying making him (and well, the cast in general for that matter) not overpowered in the scope of a 3D game isn't as hard as Sonic Team makes it seem - especially because if you stop being gimmicky with every character, you don't have to balance the equivalent of entirely different games against each other. If the same core playstyle plus a move or two per character works, then go for it. Nobody is asking for anything more than that.

[Lucid Dream]

We've already discussed how Sega could implement alternative Characters. 

There're little problems. Alt characters like Blaze and Metal Sonic are perfect and are almost completely set up for any 3D expenditure. 

Knuckles and Tails aren't the only alt characters possible. Why don't we open up the discuss to other characters.

[Muscles Maximum]

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I don't agree with that. There are significant changes, yes, but one of the reasons that SM64 was so successful is because it managed to translate most of what people liked about the series into 3D, in an era where so many originally-2D series were struggling to make the jump.

Plus, look at what 3D Mario is doing now. The 3D Land/World games are accurate translations of the 2D Mario formula into 3D. Games like 64 were a stepping stone defined by the limitations of the hardware of the time and early experimenting with what 3D gameplay could offer, not the final state of the series.

You could replace Mario with a generic character and goombas with generic enemies and you'd never think SM64 was a Mario game. It's different, but people love it.

And to be honest, with the way some people like to complain about Sonic, nobody complains that way of Mario. The Raccoon suit now feels totally different to the way it did in SMB3. It went from being able to fly from running at high speed to now being nothing more than a slow descent. People are a-okay with that. But then you get stuff like this:

49 minutes ago, Pixel said:

 Even though it is by DIMPS, look at how Sonic 4 butchered Tails' flight mechanic for an example of how they could fuck the controls up.

Where when Tails' flight feels different it's a huge deal. Just an example. But that's pretty much my main problem. It seems like Sonic has to be totally accurate to past games in order to succeed and please some of you people.

6 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Then why bother with the Adventure formula anyway? I see no profound or unique insights to gain from it. We can do better than just returning to that formula.

The Adventure formula is what most people would agree to be the closest to the way Sonic should play. Btw, I'm not talking about bringing in a cast of 6 characters with vastly different gameplay styles. I'm talking about the general gameplay style Sonic had in Adventure. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles in SA1 pretty much felt like they did in the classics. Each of their movement wasn't wildly different to each other aside from the fact Sonic had a spin dash, Tails could fly, and Knuckles glides and climbs. If you took those 3, put them in a new game that was just get to the goal like say Sonic 3 was,it could totally work as a new 3D Sonic game. But, people like to come out and say Sonic Team will mess up anything and everything they do according to those people it's just best to keep up solo-Sonica for all of eternity. As if that will fix any of the problems the series is facing. When we've had games like Lost World that's Sonic only but still garbage partly because of all the gimmicks thrown in there. People love to act like it's the fault of the extra characters. Idk man.

[Diogenes]

12 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

...no? I made no statement on using the exact same abilities Tropical Freeze did, only that they were balanced for what they were trying to accomplish. Tails has different needs, I get that. I'm just saying making him (and well, the cast in general for that matter) not overpowered in the scope of a 3D game isn't as hard as Sonic Team makes it seem - especially because if you stop being gimmicky with every character, you don't have to balance the equivalent of entirely different games against each other. If the exact same playstyle plus a move or two per character works, then go for it. Nobody is asking for anything more than that.

What does Tropical Freeze have to do with anything, then? It doesn't provide any evidence of it being easy to balance Sonic characters, beyond showing that characters with different abilities do not necessarily break a game, which no one has ever argued against.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

You could replace Mario with a generic character and goombas with generic enemies and you'd never think SM64 was a Mario game.

...no, I don't think so.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

And to be honest, with the way some people like to complain about Sonic, nobody complains that way of Mario. The Raccoon suit now feels totally different to the way it did in SMB3. It went from being able to fly from running at high speed to now being nothing more than a slow descent. People are a-okay with that.

Yeah they tweaked a powerup slightly to work better in 3D. That's one of those "not everything has to be 100% identical" things, compared to how Sonic has abandoned fundamental aspects of the series' gameplay and identity.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

The Adventure formula is what most people would agree to be the closest to the way Sonic should play.

If they limit themselves only to what Sonic Team has already tried, maybe, but I think we deserve better than 1998's idea of a 3D Sonic game.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

 Btw, I'm not talking about bringing in a cast of 6 characters with vastly different gameplay styles. I'm talking about the general gameplay style Sonic had in Adventure. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles in SA1 pretty much felt like they did in the classics. Each of their movement wasn't wildly different to each other aside from the fact Sonic had a spin dash, Tails could fly, and Knuckles glides and climbs. If you took those 3, put them in a new game that was just get to the goal like say Sonic 3 was,it could totally work as a new 3D Sonic game.

If you try to make a straight platformer with Tails and Knuckles playing as they did in SA, you're going to have a fundamentally broken game. Tails' flight snapped levels wide open already and the only reason Knuckles' abilities didn't is because his objective was treasure hunting rather than reaching a set point.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

But, people like to come out and say Sonic Team will mess up anything and everything they do according to those people it's just best to keep up solo-Sonica for all of eternity.

I am 100% okay with Sonic Team moving on to including other characters once they get Sonic right. Because I want them to be able to make good games before they worry about extraneous features.

Just now, Strong Guy said:

People love to act like it's the fault of the extra characters.

It's not the only reason the series has problems but it sure as hell is part of it.

[Blacklightning]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

What does Tropical Freeze have to do with anything, then? It doesn't provide any evidence of it being easy to balance Sonic characters, beyond showing that characters with different abilities do not necessarily break a game, which no one has ever argued against.

It's a demonstration that multiple characters can be made in mind for the game's specific needs, and even add extra goodies specific to them individually, just by adding one extra move to a unified set of core mechanics. Or even failing that, a set of differences you can literally count on one hand.

Unless you're advocating that is somehow a huge feat, I'm not sure why we're even debating this. If someone is broken, un-break them, don't just chuck it to the wayside because you can't be assed.

[Diogenes]

Okay but how well does that apply to characters with such balance-shaking abilities as Tails and Knuckles and how well can we expect Sonic Team to handle them now given their continuous failures to do so properly in the past.

Also why is there such resistance to wanting them to unfuck Sonic first.

[Muscles Maximum]

9 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Yeah they tweaked a powerup slightly to work better in 3D. That's one of those "not everything has to be 100% identical" things, compared to how Sonic has abandoned fundamental aspects of the series' gameplay and identity.

I know that, I'm not knocking Mario or anything. My point is that when it comes to Sonic people complain when something isn't 1:1 even if it's still fully functional.

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

If they limit themselves only to what Sonic Team has already tried, maybe, but I think we deserve better than 1998's idea of a 3D Sonic game.

If you try to make a straight platformer with Tails and Knuckles playing as they did in SA, you're going to have a fundamentally broken game. Tails' flight snapped levels wide open already and the only reason Knuckles' abilities didn't is because his objective was treasure hunting rather than reaching a set point.

Obviously they'd need some tweaking. In my earlier post I said that since SA1 came out so long ago, the characters wouldn't feel like they did back then. They'd improve upon what was already done. I'm bringing up SA1 so much because it's probably the best place we've see these characters work in 3D. And it still shows that you can have multiple characters that feel similar while still having some unique differences.

14 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I am 100% okay with Sonic Team moving on to including other characters once they get Sonic right. Because I want them to be able to make good games before they worry about extraneous features.

It's not the only reason the series has problems but it sure as hell is part of it.

 So are we gonna have to wait for the perfect Sonic-only game before we get your stamp of approval for them to bring in another character again? We've had Colors which most people think was pretty good. Generations too. It's still not enough. You need Sonic to come back in full force with a game with picture perfect physics, A+ level design, plus a gameplay style that suits your needs to a tee before we can get to enjoy playing as Tails or Knuckles again. Because if SEGA made them playable before this hypothetical perfect game, they'd certainly fuck it up. And it's the fault of the characters. Right.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

I know that, I'm not knocking Mario or anything. My point is that when it comes to Sonic people complain when something isn't 1:1 even if it's still fully functional.

Fully functional is not necessarily good, and criticizing something that is merely functional is not the same as demanding that it be perfectly identical to a previous game.

2 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

Obviously they'd need some tweaking. In my earlier post I said that since SA1 came out so long ago, the characters wouldn't feel like they did back then. They'd improve upon what was already done. I'm bringing up SA1 so much because it's probably the best place we've see these characters work in 3D. And it still shows that you can have multiple characters that feel similar while still having some unique differences.

If SA is your idea of acceptable differences between characters, I reject it flat out. That route has not been healthy for the series. And if you want to fix the characters to actually work in a straightforward 3D platformer, I think that would take a severe enough overhaul that looking to SA for inspiration provides effectively no benefit.

2 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

 So are we gonna have to wait for the perfect Sonic-only game before we get your stamp of approval for them to bring in another character again?

A good-enough Sonic only game. I'm not stupid enough to expect perfection. And no, Colors and Gens are not good enough.

2 minutes ago, Strong Guy said:

Because if SEGA made them playable before this hypothetical perfect game, they'd certainly fuck it up. And it's the fault of the characters. Right.

I do believe Sonic Team would be more likely to fuck up a game if they had to handle several different characters at once considering they've yet to prove themselves capable of developing a game with a single playable character, yes. This is not an unreasonable position.

[Blacklightning]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Okay but how well does that apply to characters with such balance-shaking abilities as Tails and Knuckles and how well can we expect Sonic Team to handle them now given their continuous failures to do so properly in the past.

There's a number of angles that ST have screwed up on before. Sometimes it's a character balance problem, which can be levelled out by nerfing the ones that dominate and buffing the ones that don't. Sometimes it's a level design oversight in which ST somehow put the exit to a level within flying distance of the start without putting a wall or a deathpit in the way. Sometimes they just plain design levels for only one character and allow the others to play in it mostly as an afterthought, which isn't always a product of the previous point. Whatever the case, they're simple issues that should be caught and tweaked in the testing phase. I don't doubt Sonic Team's capacity to fuck that up - I just think that scapegoating anything other than the balance itself is only making them worse at it.

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Also why is there such resistance to wanting them to unfuck Sonic first.

There is no opposition to this. Nobody is asking for a game with multiple characters at the expense of not figuring out how the fuck they work in a gameplay environment, and to be frank it's kind of asinine that you're making out like anyone actually wants that. The thing is, most people also want other characters to be based on Sonic's gameplay too, so they both work hand in hand - there's no reason they can't do both in one fell swoop if they happen to find a gameplay style that actually works, because in an ideal environment the basics are shared across the board anyway.