Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

Don't flatter yourself.

Nice.

That aside, certainly has people rolling, which isn't bad to see at all. It's nice to know as far as you go in the debate that we both agree on the Wisps.

No need to knock a guy down Nep, we're on the same side of the fence.

[LongcrierCat]

@StaticManiaThat's understood. There's a power balance here in gameplay design of what Sonic can and can't do. 

The fact that Sonic can make scrap metal out of Badniks within seconds by boosting into them kind of calls into question if Sonic might be too powerful these days though. Knuckles used to be the only one that could break a barrier. Now Sonic can do that anytime. But if Sonic is this powerful then why does he need powerups at all these days anyways? Why would he need the Wisps if he already does amazing things that might even invalidate what other characters can do? What's the real purpose besides showing off to his friends how much he doesn't need them by ingesting an alien and using their own power for his own spectacle? 

[Muscles Maximum]

The hover and drill wisps could just literally not show up in the level if you're playing as Tails or Knuckles.

Wisps with powers other characters have just won't show up for said characters. So Sonic could be the only one with access to every wisp.

[Chris Knopps]

Just now, LongcrierCat said:

That's understood. There's a power balance here in gameplay design of what Sonic can and can't do. 

The fact that Sonic can make scrap metal out of Badniks within seconds by boosting into them kind of calls into question if Sonic might be too powerful these days though. Knuckles used to be the only one that could break a barrier. Now Sonic can do that anytime. But if Sonic is this powerful then why does he need powerups at all these days anyways? Why would he need the Wisps if he already does amazing things that might even invalidate what other characters can do? What's the real purpose besides showing off to his friends how much he doesn't need them by ingesting an alien and using their own power for his own spectacle? 

I didn't think boost was overkill until Sonic beat Perfect Chaos without the need of his Super Form, that was cool in the moment, but reflecting on it, yeah, dude's kind of too invincible.

I suppose that's ONE thing I appreciated about Lost World was the much greater vulnerability, they need to maintain a strong difference between Sonic in his usual form and his Super Form otherwise the later is pointless when the only difference is... Well... Flight.

[LongcrierCat]

@Strong Guy But again, that's making Sonic way overpowered. It almost makes it feel like his friends just tag along to be with the most powerful guy in the universe just for some validation in their lives. 

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, LongcrierCat said:

@Strong Guy But again, that's making Sonic way overpowered. It almost makes it feel like his friends just tag along to be with the most powerful guy in the universe just for some validation in their lives. 

I guess Sonic really IS still sticking closely to the Dragon Ball franchise after all when you put it that way.

[Nepenthe]

7 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

@StaticManiaThat's understood. There's a power balance here in gameplay design of what Sonic can and can't do. 

The fact that Sonic can make scrap metal out of Badniks within seconds by boosting into them kind of calls into question if Sonic might be too powerful these days though. Knuckles used to be the only one that could break a barrier. Now Sonic can do that anytime. But if Sonic is this powerful then why does he need powerups at all these days anyways? Why would he need the Wisps if he already does amazing things that might even invalidate what other characters can do? What's the real purpose besides showing off to his friends how much he doesn't need them by ingesting an alien and using their own power for his own spectacle? 

TBF, rolling left Sonic with the same invincibility as when he's boosting (tears through every enemy that isn't spiked or elemental), and come Sonic 2 you could initiate really fast rolling at basically any time. Yet power-ups were still there, because the passive elemental effects were also valuable. Really, who doesn't praise the Heavens for a bubble shield in water levels?

If Wisps had such passive effects or gave Sonic abilities he couldn't reasonably display within the parameters of his normal abilities, even if those abilities are powerful (Laser should at least melt things, goddammit) it would be fine. But as it stands they're basically just piecemeal ways to get through the levels in ways we were able to without them before. Like, okay, Hover speeds you up if there's a ring trail, but what was wrong with Light Speed Dashing, which was faster in the first place?

[Diogenes]

23 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

You know, it's interesting that Classic Sonic never had to have alien friends in order to get special power ups but Modern Sonic does. It feels like a needlessly complicated way of explaining why Sonic can suddenly fly or blast off in a daze of fire. 

You know, Sega, you could have made this as simple as it was in 1993. Wisps don't have to stick around, you know. People are fine with gamified mechanics as long as something about ludonatural discobiscuits isn't a big issue. Man, I don't know. The Wisps feel like something that's become a problem with story basing your power ups when they maybe didn't need an overly complicated exposition log to read through. 

My thinking is that there's no reason to create a new "identity" for these powerups when there's one that already works fine. They established certain specific powerups and a certain kind of powerup (stored, player-activated, single use, as opposed to how the shields work) as "wisps", and if they want to continue using them, might as well continue using them in the form they're already known by.

[Celestia]

Sonic's the only one who can use Wisps powers anyway, so...

Maybe you could give 'em passive abilities that you get from just having one, like uh...Laser can specifically protect you from enemy lasers, or something. And these passive abilities would apply to everyone, while only Sonic can actually fuse with 'em. So basically the same thing as the elemental shields, but more varied. Sure, it's something that only Sonic can take advantage of, but it'd still be a lot more limited than Tails, Knuckles, and so on's abilities, so it wouldn't be unbalanced (imo, anyway).

Edit: This topic is moving faster than I thought :V

 

[Blacklightning]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

Elemental shields are useless now that Sonic the hedgehog basically has nerfed versions of those shield's abilities. And the shields would be stripped of their primary abilities, only having their secondary effects if given to Modern Sonic hedgehog.

Lightning shield I'll give you (albiet the Homing Attack is still better than any double jump so long as there are targets around), but I'd honestly argue Sonic's natural equivalents now are even better than anything the elemental shields could've once mustered. Air boosting gives you some absolutely ridiculous distance, and even if you discount the games where Sonic's had a literal bounce attack I'd argue the stomp is more practical on account of not having to wait to touch the ground again to keep moving. It makes more sense to me just to fold these things into Sonic's general moveset when all is said and done - at the very least, it saves you the trouble of breaking flow by transitioning into a completely different playstyle every time you need to do anything of note.

4 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

The fact that Sonic can make scrap metal out of Badniks within seconds by boosting into them kind of calls into question if Sonic might be too powerful these days though. Knuckles used to be the only one that could break a barrier. Now Sonic can do that anytime.

Even in context, Knux was the only one who could break specific barriers - if that were catch-all, Angel Island would literally be impossible for anyone else because several of the roll tubes are blocked by rocks. The same could yet apply if they were ever put into a game together again - just add another tier of hardness that only Knux can break through, not unlike the distinction between wooden and metal crates in SA2.

[Chris Knopps]

8 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

TBF, rolling left Sonic with the same invincibility as when he's boosting (tears through every enemy that isn't spiked or elemental), and come Sonic 2 you could initiate really fast rolling at basically any time. Yet power-ups were still there, because the passive elemental effects were also valuable. Really, who doesn't praise the Heavens for a bubble shield in water levels?

If Wisps had such passive effects or gave Sonic abilities he couldn't reasonably display within the parameters of his normal abilities, even if those abilities are powerful (Laser should at least melt things, goddammit) it would be fine. But as it stands they're basically just piecemeal ways to get through the levels in ways we were able to without them before. Like, okay, Hover speeds you up if there's a ring trail, but what was wrong with Light Speed Dashing, which was faster in the first place?

Ah! See? You're into it too Nep!

And once again I agree with all of your points about the Wisps, same side of the fence bro!

Partners here, not enemies my man.

I personally think we did just fine with the Elemental Shields back in the day. Other characters could do things Sonic couldn't do making Sonic the lackluster character in ways back in the day, so the Shields were upgraded to help him stand on level ground with other characters and still make him stand out ever so slightly above the rest.

I'd like to go back to that system.

(Edit)

That or the item system from the two Adventure titles where different characters got different special stuff.

[Nepenthe]

It's one thing to be in agreement and enjoy the discussion going on. But taking credit for "kick starting" conversations we've ultimately had before on this site?

Chill.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

It's one thing to be in agreement and enjoy the discussion going on. But taking credit for "kick starting" conversations we've ultimately had before on this site?

Chill.

Oh, fully aware it has been discussed plenty of times before. It has everywhere. I'm just speaking about this particular instance. No need to knock a guy down like I said, not saying I'm a God bro.

In short, just have fun! All we're/I'm doing.

[StaticMania]

16 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Lightning shield I'll give you (albiet the Homing Attack is still better than any double jump so long as there are targets around), but I'd honestly argue Sonic's natural equivalents now are even better than anything the elemental shields could've once mustered. Air boosting gives you some absolutely ridiculous distance, and even if you discount the games where Sonic's had a literal bounce attack I'd argue the stomp is more practical on account of not having to wait to touch the ground again to keep moving. It makes more sense to me just to fold these things into Sonic's general moveset when all is said and done - at the very least, it saves you the trouble of breaking flow by transitioning into a completely different playstyle every time you need to do anything of note.

I was think more of the jump dash, than air boosting...but in a 3D environment, the flame shield's air dash would pretty much serve the same purpose, except it even when it stops, the player doesn't uncurl and become potentially vulnerable. 

 

Also, isn't it a bit of a stretch, extreme, exaggeration to say that using the bounce attack is transitioning into a different play style? Yeah it stops the player, but as SA2 demonstrated, they can just jamp dash out of it. The stomp's one true place to be is in the boost games, because it has more utility there. The bounce's utility is counter-intuitive to the general design of the boost game-play.

[LongcrierCat]

 

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

My thinking is that there's no reason to create a new "identity" for these powerups when there's one that already works fine. They established certain specific powerups and a certain kind of powerup (stored, player-activated, single use, as opposed to how the shields work) as "wisps", and if they want to continue using them, might as well continue using them in the form they're already known by.

That's perfectly understood. How many years has Mario had the same commonly known powerups in games over Nintendo history? Quite a while and it's easy for people to understand. However, Sonic had a very easy workaround just like Mushrooms and Fire Flowers that also didn't need explaining. With each new power it seems like it needs explaining and knowledge of what Wisps are in the first place. Which to me begs the question: Did the Wisps really need to give Sonic powerups in the first place if Sonic already had existing power ups that already made sense to the player? Even then, you can introduce new ones easy. Laser Shield: a shield with the power of lasers. Hover Shield: Gives you a shield to hover. Whereas with Wisps, those are aliens with a backstory in a game that most casual fans probably won't care about. 

As it stands, their prolonged existence in the franchise kind of.... alienates the casual fans. Geddit? 

 

5 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

TBF, rolling left Sonic with the same invincibility as when he's boosting (tears through every enemy that isn't spiked or elemental), and come Sonic 2 you could initiate really fast rolling at basically any time. Yet power-ups were still there, because the passive elemental effects were also valuable. Really, who doesn't praise the  Heavens for a bubble shield in water levels?

If Wisps acted like that, or gave Sonic abilities he couldn't reasonably within the parameters of his normal abilities, even if those abilities are powerful (Laser should at least melt things, goddammit) it would be fine. But as it stands they're basically just piecemeal ways to get through the levels in ways we were able to get through without them. Like, okay, Hover speeds you up if there's a ring trail, but what was wrong with Light Speed Dashing?

Well put on the rolling Sonic. Those particular sections of level that allow Sonic to simply roll and destroy enemies are even kind of fun too. But that might require exploring another thing about game design. Moderation of spectacle over gameplay. It's fun to watch Sonic zip off and roll into loops and even take some Badniks with the momentum. However, in the classics, they weren't as frequent as the corridors of enemies that Sonic dispatches of instantly. At a certain point you want an obstacle or an enemy that can challenge the player. I'm not saying it has to be hard. Sonic isn't Megaman, now. But I'm saying that a temporary road stop is much necessary to feel more in control. You could make said roadblock like an obstacle that Sonic and the player have to work a little harder to get over. Maybe even make it a mid stage miniboss. Something to break up the movement with some action and involved play. 

Shields used to be really nice because when it came to parts where Sonic had to jump and platform instead of spin around at the speed of sound it was nice to have something to your advantage to even keep depending on how good you were at the game. These days, the games with Wisps don't feel like a reward anymore. They just make it feel like Sonic's simply showing off now. And yeah, I know, Sonic's arrogant and has an ego problem. It makes sense that he'd be showing off. But in a game where he's being shown to be more vulnerable, it would also be nice to feel vulnerable in game and to actually play the game instead of watching the game play itself because you pressed a button and blast forward and no Badniks are immune to Sonic's speed. I mean, does Sonic go underwater anymore? That'd be a change in his movement by putting him at a weakness, thus justifying his need for a bubble shield. These days, does Sonic ever feel like he needs a shield or powerup though? Does it feel like a reward for being good at the game? Does Sonic need to fly? Does Sonic need to drill into the ground?  

3 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

Even in context, Knux was the only one who could break specific barriers - if that were catch-all, Angel Island would literally be impossible for anyone else because several of the roll tubes are blocked by rocks. The same could yet apply if they were ever put into a game together again - just add another tier of hardness that only Knux can break through, not unlike the distinction between wooden and metal crates in SA2.

Okay, fair. I should have been more specific. I mean, Sonic has his barriers he can break. But these days it feels like he's invincible. Like, where are your limits, man? Where are the big metal walls that only Knuckles can break? I mean, come on. Hahahahaha. 

[Blacklightning]

1 minute ago, StaticMania said:

Also, isn't it a bit of a stretch, extreme, exaggeration to say that using the bounce attack is transitioning into a different play style?

._.

I think that's probably my fault - I meant to say this in reference to the Wisps rather than the shields, but I guess I forgot to. I guess that's what a lack of sleep does to you.

1 minute ago, LongcrierCat said:

Okay, fair. I should have been more specific. I mean, Sonic has his barriers he can break. But these days it feels like he's invincible. Like, where are your limits, man? Where are the big metal walls that only Knuckles can break? I mean, come on. Hahahahaha. 

Simple - these haven't been in the games because Knuckles hasn't been in the games, and as such there's been no mechanical reason to program in a limitation like that. This goes back to what I was saying earlier - level designers build around the capabilities that gameplay designers have detailed to them. If Sonic is the only playable character, then he gets all the abilities in the game, but with a focus on multiple characters and the intention of giving each of them different routing capabilities, then everyone gets a slice of that collective pie.

[LongcrierCat]

So you know where I'm going next, right? Where are Sonic's Laundry List of Friends? Why aren't they playable with him? Why is Sega thinking in the short term run instead of in the long term run? You can only have so many Sonic only Sonic games until someone starts to wonder if this is a one trick show with only one big spectacle and nothing else. This has done nothing but limit Sonic while also making him a complete Gary Stu. He's not allowed to have flaws and faults but he's allowed to run the show all the time with no question because he's the best.  

[Chris Knopps]

3 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

So you know where I'm going next, right? Where are Sonic's Laundry List of Friends? Why aren't they playable with him? Why is Sega thinking in the short term run instead of in the long term run? You can only have so many Sonic only Sonic games until someone starts to wonder if this is a one trick show with only one big spectacle and nothing else. This has done nothing but limit Sonic while also making him a complete Gary Stu. He's not allowed to have flaws and faults but he's allowed to run the show all the time with no question because he's the best.  

Maybe the idea is waiting long enough until they can completely erase all of the existing cast without any care/backlash save the main group, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Eggman and start with an entirely new round of ever growing rosters for a new generation.

I wouldn't mind that. Get rid of all the baggage from spin-off's and past era's and start making a whole new round of new characters to stick with the franchise. Sounds good to me but...

That's just me.

(Edit)

That way if people say "There's already too many!" or "Focus on who you have!" the company can say "We've eliminated them, they are not returning. These will be the new standard cast from now on. Thank you for your support."

[LATER BUDDY]

IDK about everyone else, but the only issue I really have with wisps are they completely make a fumble on flow when you're playing the game for the most part. Almost all of them demand you to stop to aim/etc, then do the thing; it's even exaggerated by the sudden shift in music, pounding it into your head "oh it's the wisp moment now hang on." I think wisp powers are actually genuinely neat and cool, but the only way I see people truly accepting them is if they're tuned in a bit better to work with Sonic's momentum and flow. Turn laser into a ring-dash variant, make rocket an instant super jump, have spike auto-commence if you run straight at a 90 degree wall. Have them a true extension of Sonic's ability that you keep in your back pocket when you collect it, not the gimmick to a level's design.

With the shield talk, that's probably why it's compared tbh. Elemental shields you just pop the monitor, and now suddenly you're just a "better" Sonic. Flame gives you an extra burst of speed on jump, lightning gives a much coveted second jump and ring-magnet to boot, and bubble combats everyone's dreaded underwater segments (I will add that the bounce attack doesn't always do wonders however).

But if I'm to be frank, I'm sure the wisps are the same as always judging from the boostpads/etc from the teaser we saw that I already shared my thoughts about. 

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, LongcrierCat said:

That's perfectly understood. How many years has Mario had the same commonly known powerups in games over Nintendo history? Quite a while and it's easy for people to understand. However, Sonic had a very easy workaround just like Mushrooms and Fire Flowers that also didn't need explaining. With each new power it seems like it needs explaining and knowledge of what Wisps are in the first place. Which to me begs the question: Did the Wisps really need to give Sonic powerups in the first place if Sonic already had existing power ups that already made sense to the player? Even then, you can introduce new ones easy. Laser Shield: a shield with the power of lasers. Hover Shield: Gives you a shield to hover. Whereas with Wisps, those are aliens with a backstory in a game that most casual fans probably won't care about. 

As it stands, their prolonged existence in the franchise kind of.... alienates the casual fans. Geddit? 

Well, shields don't actually work the way that wisps work. Wisps are single-use, they're player-activated, they don't protect the player from a hit, and they aren't lost upon being hit. They could've come up with a laser shield or a hover shield of some sort, but they would've had to work differently from the wisp versions we got.

And I think Colors did benefit from the powerups being wisps rather than shields or just generic item boxes. It gave the wisps a gameplay presence, rather than them just being simple damsels-in-distress. It gives the player a more direct understanding of why Eggman is harvesting them and their energy. And it all comes together nicely in the final boss, where Eggman turns the wisp powers against you, but you bust up his machine to free them, and they work with you for one last hit to finish him off. It's one of the places where Colors' storytelling actually kind of succeeds, and it'd be a shame to lose that just to have more generic item presentation.

As for their backstory in games past Colors...it just doesn't matter, I guess? You don't need to know the whole deal to be able to accept them. So Sonic gets powerups from magic aliens, that's a little weird, but so's getting shields from smashing TVs, and we've all come to accept that without any explanation.

[Blacklightning]

The expanded cast barely even plays second fiddle as it is, so I'm not really convinced outright obliterating them would make any notable difference. =\

[Multikaris]

1 minute ago, Blacklightning said:

The expanded cast barely even plays second fiddle as it is, so I'm not really convinced outright obliterating them would make any notable difference. =\

Actually it would, given the spin-off titles having a different roster and if things like the comic and shows were not allowed to use old characters. 

 

And i've seen a few other franchises like Spyro do this as well. The real problem is how long will it take until Sega buckles and brings the old ones back in some capacity?

[LongcrierCat]

Yeah, like, at a point I wanted them to tone it down with the huge cast, but now they've done a total 180 and I feel lucky if we even get to see the classic kids and a few of the other friends. I had that same problem with Sonic Unleashed. Where was Knuckles? The only Sonic mainstays were Sonic, Tails, Dr. Eggbotnik, and Amy. I mean, the Chaos Emeralds lose their power, Sonic gets a convoluted story about becoming a werewolf, and.... really? Knuckles wasn't there? What does it take to get at least a little familiarity with some new stuff thrown in? Where's the balance? 

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

So you know where I'm going next, right? Where are Sonic's Laundry List of Friends? Why aren't they playable with him? Why is Sega thinking in the short term run instead of in the long term run? You can only have so many Sonic only Sonic games until someone starts to wonder if this is a one trick show with only one big spectacle and nothing else. This has done nothing but limit Sonic while also making him a complete Gary Stu. He's not allowed to have flaws and faults but he's allowed to run the show all the time with no question because he's the best.  

I can get wanting to have other playable characters, but really, I've got to roll my eyes at this. It's not as if Sonic is the only series with only one playable character. The series isn't becoming a one trick pony because only Sonic has been playable, it's because they're set on giving him shallow gameplay. And having your series' protagonist and your game's playable character capable of succeeding doesn't make him into a Gary Stu.

[StaticMania]

15 minutes ago, LongcrierCat said:

He's not allowed to have flaws and faults but he's allowed to run the show all the time with no question because he's the best.  

Sonic is allowed to have flaws, they just don't matter outside a few scenes...if they do matter, it's simply an inconvenience at "best"