Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[Detective Kaito]

If the development is going smoothly I can see them releasing Mania in July, if it's a bit shaky then August or early September.

[Sonikko]

22 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

I'm hesitant to call it rehashing in Mania. The devs are doing it for good reason instead of blindly copying only superficial aspects, they're ensuring that they bring new elements into the mix and everything is being done to a very high quality with a clear message. The same was also true of Generations. These are dope remixes, while Sonic 4 was just weak hash. 

I'm not sure if I expressed my points well enough. What bugs me is that the layouts are not original enough in most places. The fact that Taxman and his crew are doing it the right way and doing an amazing job in general doesn't make it less of a rehash to me.

Green Hill Zone 1 has an expanded layout at the end, but the entirety of Act 1 and some of Act 2 is present in there, and the expanded section has things taken directly from CD.

Green Hill Zone 2 starts with the layout of Act3 in the original game, and then turns into something new. But that means that more than half of Green Hill is still the same layout I've played more than a hundred times as of now.

I don't care for the stages returning aestethically, I'm just tired of playing the same levels over and over, I want new stuff like Studiopolis or Mirage Saloon, or totally new layouts at the very least. We already had a remix of the old stages in 2011, two of them to be fair, one with Generations HD and one with the 3DS version. Since then we got Sonic 4 Episode 2 that might be considered a remix of old tropes. Mania is great, I love it, but it's not exactly "new", at least not all of it, I guess? 

I just don't see how GHZ returning in Forces is bad (and it is) and the fact that more than half of this game is returning stages isn't.

[Indigo Rush]

In Forces it's bad because they're doing a crap job at it.

[Sonikko]

Sure, the Mania team are doing it the right way, but it's not less of a problem in a serie that is not moving forward in any way otherwise. I mean if you could choose to have Sonic Mania with a total of 10 stages, would you want them to be 6 old stages and 4 new, or 10 totally new stages?

Mania is NOT bad. It will surely be a great game, one of the best in this franchise. But it could be better in my opinion.

[Indigo Rush]

It took this long to get a game that got the physics right I'm not biting the hand that's feeding me

[Diogenes]

I'm not a huge fan of the returning stages, but the facts that, 1, they are significantly remixed (whether it fits your tastes or not is a personal matter but there's no denying that playing Mania's GHZ is going to be a lot different from playing Sonic 1's even if they share some significant bits of level design), and 2, that they actually play like a Sonic game should for the first time in literal decades, is enough for me to not be seriously bothered by it.

I get some cool remixed levels, I get some cool new levels, I get a Sonic game I actually want to play, and if somehow this series doesn't just up and die due to Sonic Team's incompetence maybe I'll actually get another eventually and maybe that one will be all original levels. It's not perfect but it's a brighter spot than the series has had in a long time.

[JosepHenry]

I lost count of how many times we repeat ourselves.

[Zippo]

3 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Erm, what quote? If we're thinking about the same thing, what Iizuka said was basically that he's giving advice here and there, but the team is basically doing their own thing. Don't recall anything about more staff bring brought on board.

Here's the translation. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/SonicJPNews/status/855143842374406144

[Alienrun]

I don't know if Sega realizes this, but putting the drop dash in Forces thus taking a reference to Mania only makes Forces looks worse. I legitametely don't understand what they are trying to go for here but its not working!

Under normal circumstances I would find it funny to see people compare the 2 games, but in its current state its inevitable. You can't even say "oh Forces is doing its own thing" because it isn't, its very clearly taking a nod from mania and failing to capture that same success...that's just...embarrasing honestly.

...Oh wait I forgot this is the Mania topic, I tend to get the 2 mixed up when both of them are complaining about Green Hill Zone!

[Sonikko]

I'm not trying to bite the hand that feeds me or to be pessimist about a game that genuinely looks good. One that actually plays like a Sonic game and that has a lot of thought and care put into it. 

I just feel bitter about it, because it looks so good, and it plays so good, but it is still affected by that kind of mentality that SEGA pushes over on Sonic that's keeping the franchise back.

[Detective Kaito]

Let's be honest here, did anyone expect that the Classic Sonic gameplay in Forces to be as good as in Mania? Of course not. Sonic Team are way too fucking stubborn to go with the physics of the classic games.

[Zippo]

I think this may have been missed but more of Oshima's Mania Art. Can't wait to see the completed version!

The other one for comparison.

Requesting someone to do a color version of these!

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Detective Kaito said:

Let's be honest here, did anyone expect that the Classic Sonic gameplay in Forces to be as good as in Mania? Of course not. Sonic Team are way too fucking stubborn to go with the physics of the classic games.

Nobody was really expecting that. That's just what people would "prefer" if him not being in the game isn't an option.

[Indigo Rush]

Looking at those drawings...

 

 

...is this glorious, wonderful man sketching out concepts for the game clear animation?!

Y'ALL HAVE ME SAUCY MR OSHIMA

[CleverSonicUsername]

3 hours ago, Detective Kaito said:

Let's be honest here, did anyone expect that the Classic Sonic gameplay in Forces to be as good as in Mania? Of course not. Sonic Team are way too fucking stubborn to go with the physics of the classic games.

 

Nope. I mean the engine they're using probably isn't equipped to recreate the Genesis physics, so that's a weird expectation to have anyway. What I do expect though is for it to at least be as fun to play as Generations, and I don't think that's unreasonable. It may control just as well, and I'm fine with that because I have no real complaints about how Generation plays, but GHZ looks like it was cranked out of a Make Your Own Sonic Level generator.

[molul]

8 hours ago, Sonikko said:

Sure, the Mania team are doing it the right way, but it's not less of a problem in a serie that is not moving forward in any way otherwise. I mean if you could choose to have Sonic Mania with a total of 10 stages, would you want them to be 6 old stages and 4 new, or 10 totally new stages?

Mania is NOT bad. It will surely be a great game, one of the best in this franchise. But it could be better in my opinion.

I agree, but it's also the door to a new classic branch. And I'm sure a Sonic Mania 2 would be all new levels.

[Milo]

On 5/13/2017 at 8:55 PM, CleverSonicUsername said:

Nope. I mean the engine they're using probably isn't equipped to recreate the Genesis physics, so that's a weird expectation to have anyway. What I do expect though is for it to at least be as fun to play as Generations, and I don't think that's unreasonable.

People said the same thing about Generations, but there are mods out that that show it is entirely possible to greatly improve classic Sonic's physics in that game (Lobotomy's Fixing Generations Forever--which also nerfs the spindash), as well as reduce the automation/scripting too (@Sky The Destroyer's No Automation, which also gets rid of the dash panels that appear in most levels). Not make it 1:1 to the original games, sure, but at least get some basic stuff like decent rolling and momentum done properly. Unfortunately, there aren't really any videos that demonstrates both mods in action properly, outside of @Tracker_TD's GHZ Nvidia Shadowplay.

Meanwhile, lest we forget Mania --and the existing classic Sonic remakes/remasters-- are running on an engine Taxman wrote entirely from scratch, rather than being a port or emulation of the original code.

Sonic Team totally could design the Forces engine to play closer to the classic games if they wanted, the problem isn't really the engine than it is the intents and design decisions of their game designers. If they're not interested in getting the classic gameplay right this time around, what's the point of having Classic Sonic in Forces in the first place--they could had just made the 2D levels have the current Sonic instead. (I know there's the "I'm fine with the physics as long as the level design is good", which some people did find enjoyable enough in Generations that they could let classic Sonic's flawed physics slide--which to an extent includes myself. But if that Forces GHZ level is any indication, I'm not getting my hopes up...)

[Jango]

You just answered your own question, there is no point :V

[CleverSonicUsername]

I'll have to give those mods a try. Whether or not the engine they're using is capable, or how much they want to pursue physics closer to the originals, I don't think it changes my overall opinion that I would be satisfied with it at least playing like Generations. Honestly the physics didn't bug me in that game and I had a lot of fun with it. With Green Hill it's a triple threat of visuals, audio, and layout that are kinda ruining it for me.

[TB100]

The gameplay for GHZ only reinforces a theory I had since Forces was revealed. Classic Sonic feels forced and slapped in because he wasn't meant to be in Forces to begin with,

Like the game wasn't supposed to have him at first, but then when the 25th anniversary came around and Sonic Mania started development, Sega suddenly wanted Sonic Team to force him in there despite the game never having him in mind, thus they have to rework the entire game just so Classic has a role in a game that he was never supposed to be in to begin with. why would GHZ look so unfinished and out of place compared to Modern's level, why would it take four whole years of devlopment? why would he have the drop dash? why would the third playable character look awkward because of the two Sonic's thing? because Classic was never even meant to be in this game to begin with.

But that's just some crazy as hell balls to the walls theory that I came up with, so who knows.?

God the E3 explosion is gonna be something else

 

[Sonikko]

26 minutes ago, BlueBlur91 said:

The gameplay for GHZ only reinforces a theory I had since Forces was revealed. Classic Sonic feels forced and slapped in because he wasn't meant to be in Forces to begin with,

Like the game wasn't supposed to have him at first, but then when the 25th anniversary came around and Sonic Mania started development, Sega suddenly wanted Sonic Team to force him in there despite the game never having him in mind, thus they have to rework the entire game just so Classic has a role in a game where he was never supposed to be in to begin with. why would GHZ look so unfinished and out of place compared to Modern's level, why would it take four whole years of devlopment? why would he have the drop dash? why would the third playable character look awkward because of the two Sonic's thing? because Classic was never even meant to be in this game to begin with.

But that's just some crazy as hell balls to the walls theory that I came up with, so who knows.?

God the E3 explosion is gonna be something else

 

It could be like that or it could be the other way around.

Classic Sonic was to be included in the game in the first place, then Mania came around and they couldn't take Classic out of the game because they'd be cutting off a huge portion of already developed assets.

But if it's just been shoved in at the last minute I hope it makes up for a very small part of the game.

[JosepHenry]

27 minutes ago, BlueBlur91 said:

The gameplay for GHZ only reinforces a theory I had since Forces was revealed. Classic Sonic feels forced and slapped in because he wasn't meant to be in Forces to begin with,

Like the game wasn't supposed to have him at first, but then when the 25th anniversary came around and Sonic Mania started development, Sega suddenly wanted Sonic Team to force him in there despite the game never having him in mind, thus they have to rework the entire game just so Classic has a role in a game where he was never supposed to be in to begin with. why would GHZ look so unfinished and out of place compared to Modern's level, why would it take four whole years of devlopment? why would he have the drop dash? why would the third playable character look awkward because of the two Sonic's thing? because Classic was never even meant to be in this game to begin with.

But that's just some crazy as hell balls to the walls theory that I came up with, so who knows.?

God the E3 explosion is gonna be something else

 

Miyamoto!!.... *shakes fist*

[Maxtiis]

Y'know something I think is really cool about Mania is how much of a tribute to the Sega Saturn it is. You hardly ever see Sega, or well anyone for that matter, bring much attention to the Saturn and while on the surface most people would think it's just a new Genesis Sonic game, seeing all the 3-D objects in the background of a 2-D game styled to appear that it's running on hardware from the 90s scratches an itch I haven't felt in a long time. I know the game was billed as "What would a Sonic game be like if it were on the Sega Saturn" but seeing it is so much better than just hearing it. It's about time we started seeing retro styled games focus on the 5^th generation of consoles instead of just defaulting for the NES like they have been since Mega Man 9.

But really it's nice to see that the Saturn is being remembered for something other than its terrible North American launch for once and instead for its gorgeous 2-D games. Just a shame it came out when 3-D was all the rage. And that we didn't get many of the games worth having for it.

[Blue Blood]

Thank fuck that this game exists. 

[Sonikko]

49 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

Thank fuck that this game exists. 

Came here to post this. Literally.

I don't even care about the remixed stages anymore, I'll take anything. This game is a blessing.