How and Why - Silver the Hedgehog

[Lord-Dreamerz]

1 hour ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not sure why people say Blaze was really "reduced" to anything with Silver when Silver is actually the tagalong in the storyline. After Iblis is defeated for the millionth time, it's Blaze having to calm a frustrated Silver down. When they get separated after the first time travel, he gets worried without Blaze and subsequently teams up with Amy for at least some kind of company (and even then Amy is obviously leading the charge). After being abandoned by Amy, he discusses his moral hang-ups with the whole situation to Blaze, but is dismissed by her as naive and then shuts up about it for the rest of the game because of course Sempai is right. She's the one who makes the sacrifice at the end and leaves him alone. Blaze is, by all accounts, the Batman to Silver's Robin in the storyline. The only thing is we're simply playing as the Robin instead.

On top of that, there's literally no romantic inclinations between them given in the game that would be comparable to previous game displays of romantic interest. No doting like with Amy, and no "get a room" tension as with Knuckles and Rouge. Blaze is Silver's best friend. I know, right; boys and girls can be friends.

I did say her image was hurt within the Sonic community itself. even if it’s from pure misperception it still happened. I still see people everywhere to this day who seriously think they have romantic feelings for each-other. And even people who say they dislike Blaze because they think SEGA made her just a love interest to Sonic too before, and I disagreed with it. I’m fairly aware Blaze is only suppose to be friends with the others. Well kinda… I’m still not fully convinced Sonic Team didn’t have some minor thoughts & intentions with the idea of romance when comes to Blaze & Silver, but I guess even if there was, it was dropped after just the 1 game regardless. It might just be personal interpretation but I still feel Sonic Team reduced Blaze’s character in Sonic 06. And personally I don’t care to see them as even friends much, if for no reason other then I don’t like him. I wouldn’t have a problem with her being friends with the other guys… tho probably fans would misread that too like they did with her and Sonic. Hahaa.

Regardless I still dislike Silver for multiple reasons. And even if some of those reasons are a bit shallow, well I see no problem in that honestly. We all have our reasons be it good or bad why we dislike stuff.

[Sparky]

Rouge was the leader of Team Dark, but who gets all the focus? Shadow. That is the same deal with Silver and Blaze. Blaze may have been promoted as standing on equal footing with Sonic in Rush, and being enough of a "rival" to be one of the Knights of the Round Table like Shadow, Knuckles, Jet and Silver. But when pit against a variation of Sonic, it's the 'Sonic' that gets all the attention and focus in the story.

[Nepenthe]

33 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I did say her image was hurt within the Sonic community itself. even if it’s from pure misperception it still happened. I still see people everywhere to this day who seriously think they have romantic feelings for each-other. And even people who say they dislike Blaze because they think SEGA made her just a love interest to Sonic too before, and I disagreed with it.

I understand what the fandom has done. However, my first post was mainly focused on this bit:

1 hour ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

#1: I don’t like how they tried to reduce Blaze’s character as a somewhat sidekick love interest in Sonic 06 for him… It’s insulting on multiple levels.

- where you're blaming Sonic Team for reducing Blaze's character within Sonic 06 to a sidekick love interest when the story just isn't written that way, and as a result it's further impossible to reasonably ascribe intent for them to do this to her when the text just doesn't support it. In general, I just don't think fan shipping circles should be blamed for the way a character is written by the creators if the ship isn't really meaningfully acknowledged within the official product itself. Like, I don't possess apathy towards Eggman because weird ships of him exist with some of my favorite characters.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yeah.... I really do not get why people think Blaze was written as a love interest for Silver. I mean boys and girls can be close friends without being in love. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I don't possess apathy towards Eggman because weird ships of him exist with some of my favorite characters.

Likely because ships like those are not widely agreed upon and as such doesn't hurt his character's image to the rest of us.

[Nepenthe]

If an avoidable and irrelevant fan element that has no reasonable basis in the text of an official story ruins a character for you, then that's a personal problem, not a problem with the official story. I don't dislike Shadow in Boom because it posits that he doesn't like Amy. I dislike Shadow in Boom because he's terribly written.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I've read a ton of fan work that ruined Sonic for me; mostly shippy fics that protay Sonic as a bastard for not being with Amy. But I don't blame Shadow or others for that because that's the fans interpretation of the characters, not the official.

[Lord-Dreamerz]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

If an avoidable and irrelevant fan element that has no reasonable basis in the text of an official story ruins a character for you, then that's a personal problem, not a problem with the official story. I don't dislike Shadow in Boom because it posits that he doesn't like Amy. I dislike Shadow in Boom because he's terribly written.

I dislike Silver for multiple reasons as I said, not just the 1. Let's say for a sec here Blaze wasn't even in Sonic 06, well I still wouldn't like him. And yes it can make somebody a bit sour if huge amounts of people agree on something the other person doesn't agree with even if it's not fact what the others agree on, and if the center of that is a character the 1 person don't already like, then like me they'll still place some of the blame on the character regardless if it's bit unfair or not.

[Nepenthe]

I'm not talking about your dislike of Silver. I'm talking about how the Silvaze ship has apparently ruined Blaze for you. You made a claim Sega was at fault for "reducing" her to a characterization based on romance that I refuted with pointing out how the relationship was set up in the storyline that actually exists.

I'm also not denying that people dislike meta or fan concepts they disagree with due to prominence. I'm saying such arguments are never actually convincing or rational. Silver's reputation as a character ideally shouldn't have to suffer on the basis of bad arguments, because everyone here is fully aware that shitting on Sonic, Tails, or Eggman on the basis of avoidable fanon wouldn't be allowed to go unchallenged. Especially for Eggman. 

Edited July 14, 2016 by Nepenthe

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Lord-Dreamerz said:

I dislike Silver for multiple reasons as I said, not just the 1. Let's say for a sec here Blaze wasn't even in Sonic 06, well I still wouldn't like him. And yes it can make somebody a bit sour if huge amounts of people agree on something the other person doesn't agree with even if it's not fact what the others agree on, and if the center of that is a character the 1 person don't already like, then like me they'll still place some of the blame on the character regardless if it's bit unfair or not.

Your irrational hatred of Silvaze has nothing to do with whatever Sega did :V

 

 

Anyway, Silver exists because they wanted him to...that's about it really. If you want me to go into detail, they were more than likely trying to recapture the same magic that made Shadow an initially popular character (Mysterious hedgehog who comes with an emotionally gripping storyline while being at odds with Sonic for most of the game before they put aside their differences in final act) Unfortunately, the public didn't take to Silver like they did to Shadow and he was silently put under the rug. 

For why he still appears, because Sonic Team never seem to just scrap characters even if they've already served their purpose; why? I guess so they can just use them whenever they feel like to fill out an ensemble for any given game. In short, there's nothing really justifying Silver's existence currently in the games, but there's no reason he shouldn't exist either...or at least any more so than other supporting character beyond the characters that have been appearing in the games as of late. 

[Lord-Dreamerz]

16 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I'm not talking about your dislike of Silver. I'm talking about how the Silvaze ship has apparently ruined Blaze for you. You made a claim Sega was at fault for "reducing" her to a characterization based on romance that I refuted with pointing out how the relationship was set up in the storyline that actually exists.

Hmm the ships didn't ruin her to me, I just don't like them and it isn't even that big a deal with me. All I'm trying to really say is that it has hurt her image a bit in the community IMO.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Uh

All and all, Silver may be a bad character and i'm not gonna sit here and pretend he isn't, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't be given the chance to prove himself. 

[Dr. Detective]

14 hours ago, KHCast said:

Why not just have his backstory be that he's from the future, and now lives with Sonic and co? I mean the games already fuck time travel logic and rules, so don't see why they couldn't. Could create funny moments where silver basically is shitting on the way people in that time period live, or making side jokes about the present.

I made mention of why I wouldn't exactly like that personally. Basically it's the idea that "Hey, they already fucked up, what's the big deal if they fuck up more" is an okay philosophy to live by when it comes to making things better for one specific idea or character. There's ways to write him back into the fold that don't need to screw over anymore plot lines that he may or may not be apart of. Like I said, they should just go full-blown Dragonball and make Silver's future an alternate timeline for instance. That way it really wouldn't matter what he does in the past. That was raise another problem of why he's even dicking around in the past in the first place of course but there's a way to work that in too should someone really believe he's worth such a huge amount of effort. I don't believe so considering the baffling way SEGA planned his screwed up three game inclusion into the franchise though. 

Going with your idea also kind of sounds like it'd just turn Silver into an asshole. Deliberately staying in the past and jeopardizing what happens in the future by simply being there without care of what he meddles with because he hates his future and the people there wouldn't endear me to him at all.

2 hours ago, Mikyeong said:

Uh

All and all, Silver may be a bad character and i'm not gonna sit here and pretend he isn't, but it doesn't mean he shouldn't be given the chance to prove himself. 

He's been around for about a decade now. I feel he's had plenty of chances. Even if he barely makes appearances in the game's storyline nowadays he's always had appearances in the comics and such. If you've read those and he still hasn't proven himself in some small manner then I'd probably lose a big of faith in him ever doing so. I don't hate Silver but his inclusion into the series has definitely been the weirdest one they've done and they very clearly weren't prepared to handle his character should their plan to make him super popular worked.

[Wraith]

I think Silver would be best utilized in a game with some kind of pointer control system like the Wii Remote or the gamepad for precise control at high speeds. He's one of the few characters I can think of that would benefit from one of Nintendo's more "out there" controllers, actually, instead of it feeling sort of tacked on like it does in games like Secret Rings and Unleashed.  

So..yeah, they kind of missed the boat on that if they wanted to do anything really interesting with him.

[Blacklightning]

8 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I would love to play Shadow, Silver and Knuckles in very next Sonic game, BUT I would slow it down because

1 Many people still hate Sonic friends, so we need to win them over. First Genesis characters, then popular ones, then more controversial ones

You need not appeal to bigots in order to make characters objectively appealing to play. Nevermind the fact that the community simply eats up games when they're good regardless (Generations was hailed all around as a return to form despite the cast bloat, let's not forget), this is a vocal minority you're talking about here anyway, and appealing to them is ultimately a lost cause. Just focus on what what works for the game and the narrative - if people want to live under a rock, it's their loss.

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2 I love SA1 but it's obvious this game is "jack of all trades, master of none". Let Team Sonic focus on 1-2 new gameplay styles per game

Characters don't have to be an entirely new gameplay style altogether - in fact the very post you're quoting just stated that it was exactly what brought the cast of SA1 and 2 down. Characters should not have to operate on completely different goals and completely different mechanics and completely different fucking physics. Literally all anyone has ever asked of a playable roster is to draw from the same pool of core mechanics and build on them in different ways, then create level designs that benefit all of them mutually. This isn't some monumental task that needs to be slowly accomplished over the course of several games, nor is perceived public opinion in any way an obstacle to achieving that - in fact this slow and cynical attitude is exactly what's been holding Sonic's back as of late to start with. Christ.

Quote

3 It's just smart thing to keep something for sequels.

Oh fuck that.

Are you seriously advocating the deliberate withholding of features to spread them out over several games? As opposed to cramming them all into a single game actually worth playing? I'd much rather have one game that I can continue to replay for years if not decades after the fact than to have it all spread out over several games and never replay any of them ever again after the final boss, and I don't give a single flying fuck if that means an entire generation's gap between games.

32 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I think Silver would be best utilized in a game with some kind of pointer control system like the Wii Remote or the gamepad for precise control at high speeds. He's one of the few characters I can think of that would benefit from one of Nintendo's more "out there" controllers, actually, instead of it feeling sort of tacked on like it does in games like Secret Rings and Unleashed.  

So..yeah, they kind of missed the boat on that if they wanted to do anything really interesting with him.

That probably sounds cool on paper, but if you've ever played Trauma Center you'll probably realize that quick, precise movements on motion controls at a near-constant pace is a pretty good way to basically break your wrist. That, and I'm not really convinced that Silver's gameplay should really require that much precision anyway - if anything I feel it's better to drop the gimmicky bullshit entirely and just make him function like a Sonic character like everyone else, if only because of the continued genre roulette precedent the former follows.

[Potada]

I think Silver's gameplay style from 06 had potential from what I've seen of it. It just needs some tweaking, like maybe:

- Give Silver's psychic slap some distance, maybe make it like Sonic's Somersault move from Lost World 3DS.

- Instead of a meter, just put a limit of, say, 3 enemies or objects that he can grab at a time. Have them spin around him so he can throw the one in front (or all of them as a charged move).

- A double jump? Or make his floating like Peach's so it activates via holding the jump.

- Maybe his grab could launch him towards a non-disabled target, and he can double jump to keep from crashing into said target. Could make for his own version of homing chains.

- On top of that, he can more than make up for his lack of foot speed with his psychic powers. His full speed animation can just be him flying low along the ground, kinda like Super Sonic's.

Like I said, Silver has plenty of potential for speedy gameplay. It just takes a lot of brainstorming.

[MetalSkulkBane]

6 hours ago, Blacklightning said:

You need not appeal to bigots in order to make characters objectively appealing to play. Nevermind the fact that the community simply eats up games when they're good regardless (Generations was hailed all around as a return to form despite the cast bloat, let's not forget), this is a vocal minority you're talking about here anyway, and appealing to them is ultimately a lost cause. Just focus on what what works for the game and the narrative - if people want to live under a rock, it's their loss.

Characters don't have to be an entirely new gameplay style altogether - in fact the very post you're quoting just stated that it was exactly what brought the cast of SA1 and 2 down. Characters should not have to operate on completely different goals and completely different mechanics and completely different fucking physics. Literally all anyone has ever asked of a playable roster is to draw from the same pool of core mechanics and build on them in different ways, then create level designs that benefit all of them mutually. This isn't some monumental task that needs to be slowly accomplished over the course of several games, nor is perceived public opinion in any way an obstacle to achieving that - in fact this slow and cynical attitude is exactly what's been holding Sonic's back as of late to start with. Christ.

Oh fuck that.

Are you seriously advocating the deliberate withholding of features to spread them out over several games? As opposed to cramming them all into a single game actually worth playing? I'd much rather have one game that I can continue to replay for years if not decades after the fact than to have it all spread out over several games and never replay any of them ever again after the final boss, and I don't give a single flying fuck if that means an entire generation's gap between games.

Okay, you convinced me on almost all fronts.

Except for "cynical attitude" part. I'm sorry, but can you elaborate on that? For me Sonic problems come from constant changes, unpolished games, inability to satisfy all fans. "Polish the core idea in fist game, build upon it in se" seems like a logical way to me. (nless I missed your point here)

[Blacklightning]

4 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Okay, you convinced me on almost all fronts.

Except for "cynical attitude" part. I'm sorry, but can you elaborate on that? For me Sonic problems come from constant changes, unpolished games, inability to satisfy all fans. "Polish the core idea in fist game, build upon it in se" seems like a logical way to me. (nless I missed your point here)

While it probably sounds like a contradiction on the surface, both have happened regularly throughout recent history, sometimes almost simultaneously. Just as much as Sonic has reinvented the wheel for no apparent reason, they also have a tendency to rehash the hell out of shit that they know is guaranteed to sell, even when the understanding of what makes it fun they apply is shallow and sometimes outright misguided - hence, cynical. This is getting kind of offtopic by this stage, so I'll just say there needs to be a happy medium between consistency and experimentation and leave it at that.

11 hours ago, Potada said:

*ideas*

To be honest, while it probably sounds weird in hindsight I'm not convinced Silver needs a throw function at all. Finding, grabbing and throwing stuff is a lot of extra steps for the simple act of being able to just attack, and it can get cumbersome and time consuming, nevermind when you have to wait patiently for a missile to fire so you can throw it back. For a strictly offensive move I say just cut out the middleman and give Silver a Force Push that directly hurls enemies into the stratosphere without the need to stun them first.

Or you know, one of those projectiles he uses in Generations, if you wanna be boring >w>

For his obligatory mobility move I still maintain just giving him the Klonoa jump, albiet with a longer grab range. Grab an enemy, pull them to him, vault off them for an extra jump (and damage an enemy directly below him I guess, if there are any). I feel like it makes a nice contrast to the Homing Attack, making Silver more about ascending in place rather than straight up seeking enemies out and using them as stepping stones. Then when you need lateral movement you can put hovering into the mix, or give that underused-as-fuck sprint move a huge buff so he can actually travel useful distances with it, or at least keep the momentum afterwards so he can use it to his advantage once he has the height.

...for fuck's sake I rambled again. I've got to stop posting here late at night.

[Meta77]

I can not understand why people really dislike silver. I mean he is a neat character. Basically a trunks of the sonic world. Im sure he would have been better in 06 if sega had not beat the horse out the gate before the race had started. Aka is they had not rushed ST to get the game out without doing quality test or anything.

[Tara]

On 7/16/2016 at 8:03 PM, Meta77 said:

I can not understand why people really dislike silver. Basically a trunks of the sonic world.

Sort of answered your own question here.

Trunks was great... in DBZ.  But as much as Sonic is inspired by DBZ in certain aspects, the character being transparently a clone of him (to the point where the design documents of the game even state "Think Trunks from Dragon Ball Z" in reference to him) just shows a tremendously lack of creativity on Sonic Team's part, and the overarching narrative being as ham-fisted and half-hearted as it was certainly didn't earn any points in his favor.

I know there are other reasons people dislike Silver as well, but I'm just adding this in here because st;fkmmmgbjcfdlsx

[Shadowlax]

On 7/14/2016 at 0:56 PM, Nepenthe said:

 

Same with Resident Evil going back to a survival

Mmm don't know about resident evil. Played that demo, not the best. Vastly prefer The revelations games that came before it actually. Also battlefield was pretty good before battlefield one.

 

I think you are talking less improvements and more just change pace that gets people excited.