Shadow Vs Knuckles: Role of Rival

[AngelSlayerN64]

37 minutes ago, Sonikku. said:

To be honest; both characters aren't really fit to be rivals save for Knuckles.  

Shadow, Jet, and Metal Sonic are more worthy of being rivals than Knuckles would ever hope to be.  

Even Johnny was more of a rival than Knuckles.

[Nepenthe]

Out of the two characters presented, Shadow could make a better rival because he has strong enough philosophical differences from Sonic and probably dislikes him more than Knuckles does that you could reasonably bullshit a reason for them to be fighting over the same thing. But notice I said could-- both characters tend to be on Sonic's side since Sonic's side tends to amount to "Living in a non-destroyed world is great." Either that or they're working separately from him due to their own motivations.

[AngelSlayerN64]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Out of the two characters presented, Shadow could make a better rival because he has strong enough philosophical differences from Sonic and probably dislikes him more than Knuckles does that you could reasonably bullshit a reason for them to be fighting over the same thing. But notice I said could-- both characters tend to be on Sonic's side since Sonic's side tends to amount to "Living in a non-destroyed world is great." Either that or they're working separately from him due to their own motivations.

Yes. On top of that, Jet and Metal Sonic are more antagonistic towards Sonic than Knuckles is.

Knuckles is more a friend/companion to Sonic nowadays. Calling him the "one true rival" to Sonic is a bit of a stretch. Shadow is the legit Arch-Rival to Sonic in this whole scenario. It's pretty straight-forward, IMO.

[Nepenthe]

Jet is really only antagonistic to Sonic on the Extreme Gear track, but that's not entirely unique because everyone trash talks each other in competitions. Jet however is a rival, but only in a really narrow context.

As for Shadow being a rival, I don't think he's even one now, much less an Arch-Rival. I also don't think he technically even qualified as one back in the SA2/Heroes days. He's annoyed by Sonic, but Shadow's honestly so egotistical that he doesn't really care to aspire to anything Sonic does or is about.

[AngelSlayerN64]

15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Jet is really only antagonistic to Sonic on the Extreme Gear track, but that's not entirely unique because everyone trash talks each other in competitions. Jet however is a rival, but only in a really narrow context.

Jet didn't even bother showing up to Sonic's birthday party, yet he's okay with helping him out in the London and Rio Olympics (3DS), of all things, so you do make a fair point.

15 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

As for Shadow being a rival, I don't think he's even one now, much less an Arch-Rival. I also don't think he technically even qualified as one back in the SA2/Heroes days. He has an annoyance for Sonic, but Shadow's honestly so egotistical that he doesn't really care to aspire to anything Sonic does or is about.

Interesting. So, Metal Sonic it is then.

[Nepenthe]

Metal Sonic would be the closest thing to a classic rival Sonic has, but he's been so ineffectual in the games that such a designation doesn't really mean much to how I view him. His biggest showstopping moment basically involved an extremely convoluted plan and changing into a dragon, an act that completely sets aside the symbolism inherent in being a metallic version of Sonic. It's just a mess, and on top of that he's never really been able to tie with Sonic or one-up him in some other way. So yeah, Metal's a rival, but I don't think he's a good one in the games.

[AngelSlayerN64]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Metal Sonic would be the closest thing to a classic rival Sonic has, but he's been so ineffectual of the games that such a designation doesn't really mean much to how I view him. His biggest showstopping moment basically involved an extremely convoluted plan and changing into a dragon, an act that completely sets aside the symbolism inherent in being a metallic version of Sonic. It's just a mess, and on top of that he's never really been able to tie with Sonic or one-up him in some other way. So yeah, Metal's a rival, but I don't think he's a good one in the games.

Indeed.

What about Johnny in Rush Adventure?

[Nepenthe]

I've not played Sonic Rush Adventure, but from what I read about him he fits into the rival role pretty well. He's a speed demon who's egotistical about his abilities to the point of delusion. He works perfectly well, although his limited appearance in the series and generally cowardly nature he's not gonna be a huge character or anything, certainly not an arch-rival. But I guess he doesn't need to be, eh? xP

[MetalSkulkBane]

Ow great, I missed whole "Knuckles in Heroes" debate and I can't reply to it or I'll be off topic-ing my own thread.

....I'll just put my thoughts in the spoiler box.

Spoiler

First of all gameplay is always more important than story details. Knuckles was needed for team mechanic, so he had to join. That's all there is too it.

Second, if we ever want bigger stories that what Pontac/Graff are doing, we need to accept that Knuckles will show up. And we want that, almost everyone likes Knuckles. But not everyone story can resolve around ME (it's already kinda silly ow often it's being stolen). So unless ChaosSupreme or anyone else has a great idea how to excuse Knuckles being on surface, then we have to deal with it Knuckles showing up with no explanation about ME.

Personally, I like to think that shard hunting from Adventure games inspired him to become treasure hunter and see the world. ME is in his pocket, while Angel Island just drifts on water. Sometimes he goes back on his rock and then Rivals games take place.

Lastly, I would argue that Tails and Knuckles do play role in Heroes. Game is about friendship. Since old games have vague stories, I think it's safe to say that Knuckles wasn't friend with Sonic in beginning of SA1, he still wasn't sure what to think of him, but both Adventure games helped him warm up. So Heroes is the first game where they really go on adventure as friends and we have lesson about teamwork. yada yada. Cheesy, but it is a role to play. Look at MLP, Twilight's friends rarely do anything important during biggest episodes, they just do support stuff, emphasizing power of friendship and that jazz.

Sonic 06 or Riders on the other hand, there he's just fan service and gameplay. (And in Lost World he's just there to increase my blood pressure and mock me).

I guess in the end heroes don't need rivals. Batman has like twelve of them, depending on your interpretation, but Link or Samus never considering the idea.

And if anything, Metal Sonic does the job just fine.

[AngelSlayerN64]

8 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

I've not played Sonic Rush Adventure, but from what I read about him he fits into the rival role pretty well. He's a speed demon who's egotistical about his abilities to the point of delusion. He works perfectly well, although his limited appearance in the series and generally cowardly nature he's not gonna be a huge character or anything, certainly not an arch-rival. But I guess he doesn't need to be, eh? xP

Considering how SEGA's been treating the supporting cast lately, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't acknowledge that anymore.

6 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

And if anything, Metal Sonic does the job just fine.

Exactly.

[Kuzu]

10 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

Jet is really only antagonistic to Sonic on the Extreme Gear track, but that's not entirely unique because everyone trash talks each other in competitions. Jet however is a rival, but only in a really narrow context.

As for Shadow being a rival, I don't think he's even one now, much less an Arch-Rival. I also don't think he technically even qualified as one back in the SA2/Heroes days. He's annoyed by Sonic, but Shadow's honestly so egotistical that he doesn't really care to aspire to anything Sonic does or is about.

I will disagree with this and Sonic & Shadow did gradually gain each other's respect as Sonic Adventure 2 went on; its pretty clear in the last act as Shadow expresses disappointment when Sonic seemingly dies to Eggman's plan, their final confrontation before the last story has Shadow expressing disbelief and amazement that Sonic was able to use Chaos Control with a fake emerald, and even gives Sonic a compliment claiming that he's the true ultimate life form.

Its that respect that kinda added to their rivalry that was just sort of dropped after Shadow got amnesia and is very rarely brought up again. 

[Nepenthe]

I don't think what we've both said are mutually exclusive. Shadow respects Sonic as an ally and a force, but he has the propensity to be annoyed by him (ShtH), and in general despite Sonic's sheer doggedness he doesn't really do or have anything that Shadow particularly covets, in part because he has every power under the sun and because he has his own motivations.

[Kuzu]

3 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

I don't think what we've both said are mutually exclusive. Shadow respects Sonic as an ally and a force, but he has the propensity to be annoyed by him (ShtH), and in general despite Sonic's sheer doggedness he doesn't really do or have anything that Shadow particularly covets, in part because he has every power under the sun and because he has his own motivations.

Then yea, I agree; the respect is there, but there's nothing Sonic has done to Shadow or vice versa to earn his ire and their confrontations in SA2 were more due to circumstances of having opposing goals than anything personal between the two.

[blade57331]

21 hours ago, Nepenthe said:

 

@blade57331

 

Notice how in the majority of these games he abandons protecting the Master Emerald in order to address a variety of different situations and problems at hand.

Spoiler

 

Not really?

I mean in S3&K he still remain on island. He didn't abandon it (he was fighting for protection of M.E.) In SA1, yes he did but only by the end for a brief moment. SA2, he didn't abandon it (he was still keeping shard/M.E. to himself when they were on ARK).  Sonic Chronicles, again he didn't abandon it. Through all games he wanted to get it back. Sonic Rivals, now that's pretty funny thing there. When everyone are turning in the cards (Amy, Tails and so for) Knuckles completely ignores them and going for M.E. to the end. In Sonic Rivals 2 kind of the same, his goal at the end is M.E.